Compression numbers wet and dry. What is acceptable?

Rusty Muffler

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I haven't done a leak down test because I didn't want to spend the $ yet. I did another compression test DRY then WET and here are the results. Can someone tell me what the numbers mean as this engine has about 1000 miles on it? It looks like a leak down test is next. The vibration is really th
IMG_20240615_190106222.jpg
rowing me. Can carbueration cause that?
 
What engine is this, and is the cam anything special?

Did you jamb a screw driver down the carb throat to keep the throttle open during the test?

Were all plugs out of the engine during the test?

Was the power cut to the ignition system during the test?

Was the compression tester screwed into each plug hole correctly? Firmly all the way, hand tight?

Are these numbers after about 3 or 4 cranks?

Was the battery fully charged before the test, and kept on a low-amp charger during the test if neccessary to keep it up?

Withing knowing the answers to any of the above questions, I'd say the numbers are low.

Is the compression gauge trustworthy?
 
What engine is this, and is the cam anything special?

Did you jamb a screw driver down the carb throat to keep the throttle open during the test?

Were all plugs out of the engine during the test?

Was the power cut to the ignition system during the test?

Was the compression tester screwed into each plug hole correctly? Firmly all the way, hand tight?

Are these numbers after about 3 or 4 cranks?

Was the battery fully charged before the test, and kept on a low-amp charger during the test if neccessary to keep it up?

Withing knowing the answers to any of the above questions, I'd say the numbers are low.

Is the compression gauge trustworthy?
We've come to the conclusion that the numbers or "ok" given they're within 20lbs of each other. My question now is the difference from wet to dry a problem? Stock 301 v8, 57 Belvedere. YES to the rest of the questions.
Next will be a leak down test once I purchase one.
 
The compression ratio of the poly's changed a lot between '55 to '58. From 8:1 to 10:1. The '57 was 9.25:1. Compression tests should also go up with comp ratio, all else being equal. Note that compression test numbers are somewhat sensitive to cranking speed, so having a fully charged battery is absolutely necessary, and to keep it charged during the test so that it's not slowing down by the time you get to the last cylinder.

I don't know if you should be so focused on wet vs dry rather than cold vs warm.

Was your 301 bored over?
 
The compression ratio of the poly's changed a lot between '55 to '58. From 8:1 to 10:1. The '57 was 9.25:1. Compression tests should also go up with comp ratio, all else being equal. Note that compression test numbers are somewhat sensitive to cranking speed, so having a fully charged battery is absolutely necessary, and to keep it charged during the test so that it's not slowing down by the time you get to the last cylinder.

I don't know if you should be so focused on wet vs dry rather than cold vs warm.

Was your 301 bored over?
Unknown.
 
The wet vs dry compression checks were probably a means to check for compression ring wear on used engines. The wet tests would only be applicable IF it was known that all of the oil squirted into the cyl was EVENLY distributed around the complete circumference of the bore. To me, THAT would be a significant issue, in theory. Even with a lead-down test.

I know the engine was recently rebuilt, possibly to a less-intense level than can be done in modern times (deck plate honed, plateau honing, or similar), BUT I also suspect it might not be that much different than what would have been "the norm" when the car was a "used car". Back then, if there were no piston sounds, it was "rings, bearings, and a valve job", usually. BTAIM

Personally, I doubt the rabbit hole of compression/leak-down testing will not lead to a definitive answer. MANY engines with compression pressures as yours run smoothly at all rpm levels, by observation. No matter the rated compression ratio.

What would I do, myself? I would seek out a repair shop which had an ignition oscilloscope "machine" onto which to watch the traces for each cylinder as the points worked and each cylinder fired. Some could arranged the traces with each cylinder vertically, or in one horizontal "line". In this way, the complete ignition system's activities could be watched in real time at any rpm level. I suspect that that might now indicate "a miss" at higher rpm levels, though, so putting a higher load on the engine at lower rpm levels (as in driving up a hill and maintaining/increasing speed) might be needed. IF the vibration gets worse under load and lower rpm levels, that could indicate an ignition issue.

IF new pistons were installed, were they just installed OR were they "weight-matched" to the old pistons or against the OEM service manual specs for such? As a general rule, ONLY OEM replacement pistons (up to .030" oversize) weigh the same as the production pistons. I suspect that if you can find a catalog for the replacement pistons, you'll discover they are heavier than the OEM piston weight specs, which is normal.

In engine balancing, there is "over-balance" and "under-balance", depending upon the main rpm ranges the engine will operate in. I've only heard my late machine shop operative mention that, so I'm not fully-versed on what those terms mean. In this realm, worst-case scenario might be to pull the engine and get the rotating assy checked for "balance" to factory specs. Hopefully that will not be needed IF an ignition system issue can be discovered!

Carburetor? Usually an over-lean mixture will only happen at cruise conditions. More throttle activates the "power system" for a richer mixture and more power for passing or going up hills. Too lean can result in less power than normal and even lean spit-backs through the carburetor.

I recall some earlier concerns about "cam break-in time" in earlier posts. Many times, such mentions were NOT in the FSM, as I suspect those things should have been known by any competent mechanic, back then. It might also have been that with the less lift, less valve spring pressure, and such, that such initial run-in time was not needed, when it really was. Getting a sample of the motor oil (with a "kit" to pull oil out of the dipstick tube and capture several ounces in a bottle to send off for analysis) would pinpoint such an issue very precisely or quickly, typically. Probably might be done by a local CAT equipment dealer?

An alternative might be to remove the oil filter element (or cut it open if it is a spin-on) and look for "sparkles" between the pleats. Although the analysis would probably be more definitive, I suspect. Do both for a total better investigation, though.

So, you might go out and drive the car to get it fully warmed up with over 10 miles at highway speeds. Then if no hills, at a speed when the engine is smooth, start adding throttle to the point where the transmission kicks-down into "passing gear" (I seem to recall this being a PowerFlite car?). IF the engine runs smooth, but when passing gear happens, the vibrations start, that's probably an engine balance issue. Should the "missing" start before that, that can point to the ignition area, most probably. IF this last situation is operative, then holding the car to a slower speed with the foot brake and higher throttle should probably duplicate that at a slower road speed. OR even firmly applying the foot brake and throttling into the engine to put higher loads on it, to cause the ignition to "break down under load". Should the brakes not be up to that task, DO NOT DO IT that way!

A leak-down test can be good on a race motor to determine if it might need new rings for ultimate power production. On a stock motor, it can identify if the lower compression is due to poor ring seal of poor valve sealing, as each would sent "air" to either the intake manifold (intake valves), exhaust pipe (exhaust valves), or crankcase (rings), in general.

As you mentioned no lower-rpm running issues, I'm presuming the valves are good. There is a shade-tree method of checking for burnt exhaust valves, by feeling the exhaust pulses at the end of the tail pipe at idle, plus lower power on acceleration and a rough idle.

These are ALL things you can do "solo", by yourself, other than the ignition traces observation at the repair shop with that diagnostic tool.

Sorry for the length. Also sorry if some of what I mentioned might not be what you wanted to hear. Hopefully it will be something simple in the ignition system!

Take care,
CBODY67
 
The wet vs dry compression checks were probably a means to check for compression ring wear on used engines. The wet tests would only be applicable IF it was known that all of the oil squirted into the cyl was EVENLY distributed around the complete circumference of the bore. To me, THAT would be a significant issue, in theory. Even with a lead-down test.

I know the engine was recently rebuilt, possibly to a less-intense level than can be done in modern times (deck plate honed, plateau honing, or similar), BUT I also suspect it might not be that much different than what would have been "the norm" when the car was a "used car". Back then, if there were no piston sounds, it was "rings, bearings, and a valve job", usually. BTAIM

Personally, I doubt the rabbit hole of compression/leak-down testing will not lead to a definitive answer. MANY engines with compression pressures as yours run smoothly at all rpm levels, by observation. No matter the rated compression ratio.

What would I do, myself? I would seek out a repair shop which had an ignition oscilloscope "machine" onto which to watch the traces for each cylinder as the points worked and each cylinder fired. Some could arranged the traces with each cylinder vertically, or in one horizontal "line". In this way, the complete ignition system's activities could be watched in real time at any rpm level. I suspect that that might now indicate "a miss" at higher rpm levels, though, so putting a higher load on the engine at lower rpm levels (as in driving up a hill and maintaining/increasing speed) might be needed. IF the vibration gets worse under load and lower rpm levels, that could indicate an ignition issue.

IF new pistons were installed, were they just installed OR were they "weight-matched" to the old pistons or against the OEM service manual specs for such? As a general rule, ONLY OEM replacement pistons (up to .030" oversize) weigh the same as the production pistons. I suspect that if you can find a catalog for the replacement pistons, you'll discover they are heavier than the OEM piston weight specs, which is normal.

In engine balancing, there is "over-balance" and "under-balance", depending upon the main rpm ranges the engine will operate in. I've only heard my late machine shop operative mention that, so I'm not fully-versed on what those terms mean. In this realm, worst-case scenario might be to pull the engine and get the rotating assy checked for "balance" to factory specs. Hopefully that will not be needed IF an ignition system issue can be discovered!

Carburetor? Usually an over-lean mixture will only happen at cruise conditions. More throttle activates the "power system" for a richer mixture and more power for passing or going up hills. Too lean can result in less power than normal and even lean spit-backs through the carburetor.

I recall some earlier concerns about "cam break-in time" in earlier posts. Many times, such mentions were NOT in the FSM, as I suspect those things should have been known by any competent mechanic, back then. It might also have been that with the less lift, less valve spring pressure, and such, that such initial run-in time was not needed, when it really was. Getting a sample of the motor oil (with a "kit" to pull oil out of the dipstick tube and capture several ounces in a bottle to send off for analysis) would pinpoint such an issue very precisely or quickly, typically. Probably might be done by a local CAT equipment dealer?

An alternative might be to remove the oil filter element (or cut it open if it is a spin-on) and look for "sparkles" between the pleats. Although the analysis would probably be more definitive, I suspect. Do both for a total better investigation, though.

So, you might go out and drive the car to get it fully warmed up with over 10 miles at highway speeds. Then if no hills, at a speed when the engine is smooth, start adding throttle to the point where the transmission kicks-down into "passing gear" (I seem to recall this being a PowerFlite car?). IF the engine runs smooth, but when passing gear happens, the vibrations start, that's probably an engine balance issue. Should the "missing" start before that, that can point to the ignition area, most probably. IF this last situation is operative, then holding the car to a slower speed with the foot brake and higher throttle should probably duplicate that at a slower road speed. OR even firmly applying the foot brake and throttling into the engine to put higher loads on it, to cause the ignition to "break down under load". Should the brakes not be up to that task, DO NOT DO IT that way!

A leak-down test can be good on a race motor to determine if it might need new rings for ultimate power production. On a stock motor, it can identify if the lower compression is due to poor ring seal of poor valve sealing, as each would sent "air" to either the intake manifold (intake valves), exhaust pipe (exhaust valves), or crankcase (rings), in general.

As you mentioned no lower-rpm running issues, I'm presuming the valves are good. There is a shade-tree method of checking for burnt exhaust valves, by feeling the exhaust pulses at the end of the tail pipe at idle, plus lower power on acceleration and a rough idle.

These are ALL things you can do "solo", by yourself, other than the ignition traces observation at the repair shop with that diagnostic tool.

Sorry for the length. Also sorry if some of what I mentioned might not be what you wanted to hear. Hopefully it will be something simple in the ignition system!

Take care,
CBODY67
Thanks CBody, 3 speed Torqueflite, no oil useage. All pistons appear to be original as they were amber in color. Plugs look lean to me? Just did a leak down and appears the rings are to blame for leakage. Wonder if the rings haven't set in after 1
IMG_20240618_140826783.jpg
000 miles? I heard from somewhere that there was a special oil for break i
IMG_20240618_140844779.jpg
n? I may have to adapt and Edelbrock carb on there and take the carb off t
IMG_20240618_141011621.jpg
he list.
 
Thanks for that information. The plugs MIGHT be a little lean, but not terribly so. Put them back in and look at them in another 3K miles or so for the best gauge of things.

Carb? Might aim for about 500cfm to match the orig holes in the manifold base better. Even an AVS2, possibly?

With 1K miles on a seasoned-block rebuild, don't worry about driving it harder, just make sure it does not get hot and such.

Break-in oil? That's usually for just-built motors. You might aim for a higher-zddp oil, though, if desired. Valvoline VR-1 comes in both syn and dino, 10W-30 or 20W-50, and is usually reasonably easy to come by at WalMart or similar, or even online from Valvoline itself.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
Thanks for that information. The plugs MIGHT be a little lean, but not terribly so. Put them back in and look at them in another 3K miles or so for the best gauge of things.

Carb? Might aim for about 500cfm to match the orig holes in the manifold base better. Even an AVS2, possibly?

With 1K miles on a seasoned-block rebuild, don't worry about driving it harder, just make sure it does not get hot and such.

Break-in oil? That's usually for just-built motors. You might aim for a higher-zddp oil, though, if desired. Valvoline VR-1 comes in both syn and dino, 10W-30 or 20W-50, and is usually reasonably easy to come by at WalMart or similar, or even online from Valvoline itself.

Take care,
CBODY67
Do you think those numbers are bad? Anywhere from 23psi to 43 difference with 90 psi applied.
 
Do you think those numbers are bad? Anywhere from 23psi to 43 difference with 90 psi applied.
I'm not sure of what leak-down numbers mean. Or what is good or not so good. Main thing you have done is determined where the "leakage" is and is not. I'm sure there are some figures of what's acceptable and what needs attention, somewhere.

IF you do modernize the carburetor, figure out a way to put a pcv valve into the mix, to replace the existing road draft tube. Might need to do some research on the earlier 1960s Poly As when they were first used. Might need a later model year vale cover and related block-off for the road draft tube as something of a DIY project. End result, it looks like it came that way.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
In a quick look via Google, I found a few references to "% or leakage", rather than specific psi loss.

One place said 10% leakage is great. Another place claimed that 18-25% is fine. Looks like you might be in those ranges. Not sure what impact a cold engine might have, though. 30% might be cause for investigation, though.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
I'm not sure of what leak-down numbers mean. Or what is good or not so good. Main thing you have done is determined where the "leakage" is and is not. I'm sure there are some figures of what's acceptable and what needs attention, somewhere.

IF you do modernize the carburetor, figure out a way to put a pcv valve into the mix, to replace the existing road draft tube. Might need to do some research on the earlier 1960s Poly As when they were first used. Might need a later model year vale cover and related block-off for the road draft tube as something of a DIY project. End result, it looks like it came that way.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
My main reason for the carb is a test to see if that solves the problem. Or as you said, pay someone else with the proper tools to check it out :(
 
A new carb can be an expensive "something to try". Perhaps must some slightly-richer main jets in the one you have might be an easier diagnostic option? Certainly, a new AVS2 would probably make the car nicer to drive (with the improvements in carb design since your existing carb was built), but it might not eliminate your vibration issue.

Through all of the posts, I don't recall if the vibration is road speed related or engine rpm related. If it is just rpm related, it should happen in the lower gears, not just in high gear. If it is road speed related, then only in high gear. Which would then mean something in the driveshaft area or wheels/tires area.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
A new carb can be an expensive "something to try". Perhaps must some slightly-richer main jets in the one you have might be an easier diagnostic option? Certainly, a new AVS2 would probably make the car nicer to drive (with the improvements in carb design since your existing carb was built), but it might not eliminate your vibration issue.

Through all of the posts, I don't recall if the vibration is road speed related or engine rpm related. If it is just rpm related, it should happen in the lower gears, not just in high gear. If it is road speed related, then only in high gear. Which would then mean something in the driveshaft area or wheels/tires area.

Take care,
CBODY67
RPM related. It's just like the torque convertor was out of balance because the vibration repeats itself in waves. I figure the convertor because it's the only thing large enough to create such a vibration. But misfiring too? I figured I'd start with fixing the misfire, but can a misfire cause a vibration that goes up and down?

I sometime wonder if there's two problems, something out of balance and a misfire. And the misfire isn't something I can feel except for the vibration and if I listen to the tail pipes while someone pushes on the gas. If I hit WOT she goes pretty good, without the typical cut out feel you get with a typical misfire. I know, it sounds crazy.
 
A new carb can be an expensive "something to try". Perhaps must some slightly-richer main jets in the one you have might be an easier diagnostic option? Certainly, a new AVS2 would probably make the car nicer to drive (with the improvements in carb design since your existing carb was built), but it might not eliminate your vibration issue.

Through all of the posts, I don't recall if the vibration is road speed related or engine rpm related. If it is just rpm related, it should happen in the lower gears, not just in high gear. If it is road speed related, then only in high gear. Which would then mean something in the driveshaft area or wheels/tires area.

Take care,
CBODY67
Get this, and I have to guard against reading too much into this, put I pulled the 2 emulsion rods out and left them out and drove it. I thought it would be way rich? Not much difference and still has the misfire while sitting still around 2500 rpm. At around that rpm I tried slowly covering the primaries and it would try to die and didn't run any better. She runs smooth at idle and slow cruise.
 
Get this, and I have to guard against reading too much into this, put I pulled the 2 emulsion rods out and left them out and drove it. I thought it would be way rich? Not much difference and still has the misfire while sitting still around 2500 rpm. At around that rpm I tried slowly covering the primaries and it would try to die and didn't run any better. She runs smooth at idle and slow cruise.
The only way to make a particular fuel circuit go "full rich" is to plug/decrease the size of the air bleeds (for that circuit, on one side) on the top of the venturi cluster. Rich enough to make fuel drip from the venturi on that side.

CBODY67
 
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