CRATE OR REBUILD ?

I'm thinking over the options, my car is not matching numbers so that's not a concern. A friend of mine is trying to talk me into buying a crate motor. I have a 72 Polara four door 440 with 3:23 rear. Not a lot of engine rebuilders left around here (Mass.). What would you do?
Dematt and I are running similar power plant set ups. With curb weight at 4445 lbs. the 375 hp cam and carb and exhaust mods I have good starting and drivability w/ good power. You will need good low end power. Fuel mile age is acceptable w/ the 375 hp version I have.
 
Nonsense, plenty of info everywhere and a basic rebuild is step by step. How else are you going to learn. If you can read, have a little bit of mechanical aptitude and a place you feel comfortable asking questions, like here, I would not hesitate trying a rebuild of any component of your car.
So? The guy wants a reliable power plant for his cruiser. I agree that he could rebuild his engine if he wanted to. However, the cost to effort ratio is not there, especially seeing as he can not find a decent machine shop in his area. I do not think he can beat a crate engine with his current price range, especially a warrantied one.

Also, I'd like to see the examples of people breaking their engines within 20,000 miles, please.
P.S. I've seen "Quality Rebuilds" break immediately. :eek:
 
Rebuilding an engine ain't rocket surgery. Anyone willing to buy a few tools and take his (or her!) time to pay attention to detail can build a reliable near-stock engine, assuming the machining can be found. Unless there's a really tight time schedule, machining can be found somewhere within reasonable driving distance.

New heads are a thousand bucks. Under a thousand for a rebuild kit with pistons. Three hundred gets you cam, lifters, misc crap for the valvetrain he's going to need. New distributor, intake, carb, misc stuff. You're looking at $3000 in parts, or therabout. What's machining going to cost, including driving it within a 200 mile radius? $1000?

Buy a used engine stand for $100. Used Cherry picker for $250, and then sell them after for about the same. Buy a decent torque wrench, a ring compressor, and some other miscellaneous tools. $300.

I say he's all-in with a nice rebuild for under $4500.

Sure it takes him a few months. But what the heck? He's already got a car with a half-disassembled engine in the trunk. What's another couple months?
 
So? The guy wants a reliable power plant for his cruiser. I agree that he could rebuild his engine if he wanted to. However, the cost to effort ratio is not there, especially seeing as he can not find a decent machine shop in his area. I do not think he can beat a crate engine with his current price range, especially a warrantied one.

Also, I'd like to see the examples of people breaking their engines within 20,000 miles, please.
P.S. I've seen "Quality Rebuilds" break immediately. :eek:
For a daily driver yes, hobby car, and a long cold Mass winter, no
Moper is in Connecticut he should know of a shop or he is not that far away.
 
So? The guy wants a reliable power plant for his cruiser. I agree that he could rebuild his engine if he wanted to. However, the cost to effort ratio is not there, especially seeing as he can not find a decent machine shop in his area. I do not think he can beat a crate engine with his current price range, especially a warrantied one.

Also, I'd like to see the examples of people breaking their engines within 20,000 miles, please.
P.S. I've seen "Quality Rebuilds" break immediately. :eek:
I am a retired engine builder w/ 42 yrs exper. and ASE certified. Engine repair and overhaul was my bread and butter. The quality control crate motors have is less than desirable. Having seen the end result brought to me time and time again has but one known truth. To sell cheap mass builders either cut corners on parts or the quality in preparation. The warranty issues alone are a whole nother story in its own. The 12,000 warranty not worth much if the crate engine has valve train, oil consumption premature wear problems at 20,000 or less.
 
I am a retired engine builder w/ 42 yrs exper. and ASE certified. Engine repair and overhaul was my bread and butter. The quality control crate motors have is less than desirable. Having seen the end result brought to me time and time again has but one known truth. To sell cheap mass builders either cut corners on parts or the quality in preparation. The warranty issues alone are a whole nother story in its own. The 12,000 warranty not worth much if the crate engine has valve train, oil consumption premature wear problems at 20,000 or less.
Fair enough. Thanks for your response. By the way, if the OP decides to build his engine I agree that there are more than enough knowledgeable people here to help. In fact, there are a lot of great craftsmen on here. I suppose it is up to him to decide how much effort he wants to put in to getting the quality end result he would like.
 
I am a retired engine builder w/ 42 yrs exper. and ASE certified. Engine repair and overhaul was my bread and butter. The quality control crate motors have is less than desirable. Having seen the end result brought to me time and time again has but one known truth. To sell cheap mass builders either cut corners on parts or the quality in preparation. The warranty issues alone are a whole nother story in its own. The 12,000 warranty not worth much if the crate engine has valve train, oil consumption premature wear problems at 20,000 or less.

I hadn't thought about this level of detail, but it makes sense to me. It fits in with my comment about cams: they're built to hit a price, and market a top-line horsepower number. If that fits your needs, great. Makes sense that there would be other compromises.

You've got to figure that there's at least a 100% margin on the hard costs of the rebuild. When you figure in sunk costs of inventory and other overhead, that's a lower (but still healthy) net margin. So a $6500 engine is costing someone $3250 in parts and labor to build. Even buying in volume and having the machines all set up to build a lot of them, that's still pretty slim to source and build an engine.
 
By observation, for some people, a crate engine makes sense. For others, they can do better themselves, which is fine, too. One of our Mopar club members bought a big-inch RB from a "big-time" crate engine builder. It didn't last past the water getting hot, unfortunately.

You can chase that "big name" engine builder or you can find a basic engine builder which has good tools, pays attention to details, uses OEM-level parts, and does quality assembly work, usually at lesser cost and good durability. In many cases, the stuff which some scorn as "rebuilder" parts are really quite good, IF you know WHAT to buy and from where. Reason I know this is from my machine shop associate/engine builder. For a stock application, you don't need forged pistons, cast will do just fine IF they are name brand cast, as Silvolite or KB, for example. Bearings can be "white box", rather than otherwise, but still be the same bearings at lesser cost (from the engine builder supply network). Finding a good crank grinder can be troublesome, though. Seems the younger operators don't know how to properly radius the fillets on a turned crank.

As for the "auto supply rebuilds", like the used-to-be $299.95 Chevy 350s, they usually have the least expensive stuff in them to hit that price point, come from an "out of area" mass rebuilder, and will do just fine in a used car lot situation, but probably see oil use increase at about 30K miles, rather than 80K+ miles.

NOW . . . it's one thing for a shop to have lots of higher-level machines (power hones, etc.), but if they don't know how to do that procedure and read the "load factor" gauge, you can ruin an excellent bore quickly. In many cases, a simple boring bar, deck plates, and dingle-berry final hone can do just as well, if not better. On the bottom end, checking the main bearing bores for size and such, then the final line hone procedure, take care of that area. Getting the ring gaps to spec, grinding if necessary. Doing a good valve job, AFTER doing the valve guides (a good time to do the bronze helicoil type guide inserts). Verifying the stem-to-guide clearance will result in better oil consumption issues and longer "valve job" life. Stock umbrella valve seals, orange silicone OEM.

Piston rings? OEM-spec moly-filled compression rings and OEM-spec matching rings. Slick bore finish rather than rough, especially with the moly-filled rings.

You can get the short block assembled by the builder, have the heads done, too, but not installed, possibly, or let them do the complete long block. You add the intake manifold and other external "dress" items. Use the pre-lube shaft to pressure up the oil system before the engine fires.

As for engine builders, check with the local drag racers, but try to lean toward Mopar racers, if possible. When you talk to many who mention the same place, that's where to start, but not especially end there. There are lots of good engine builders, some even great, who don't have all of the trappings of a fancy shop, but it's the quality of the machine work AND a competent assembler that make things work.

Most machine shops will warranty the engine for what they did, but NOT for what YOU do. You can spec what you want in it, but let them get the parts. Reason is that if something doesn't work, THEY can fix it rather than waiting for YOU to go through channels to get it fixed. Their way, they know what's happening themselves and the down-time is usually less for them.

On what you've got already, if you start pulling it apart for this or that, you'll end up with a complete teardown and rebuild. As for the "70K needing a build", not quite accurate. It was a known fact that Chrysler usually set things up a little tighter than other OEMs did, for longer life, but would cost a little horsepower by comparison. So that "70K blueprint" is just getting things "right" rather than "worn out". Put a new double-roller timing chain (Mopar Perf or Cloyes) if you don't do anything else!

There CAN be some minor differences in the model year of the blocks. Relating to power steering pump mountings, etc. So getting a ready-built short block might have some issues if it's a different model year.

As for piston sizing, it can usually take an overbore of .030" to get to "clean" metal, to get rid of the old wear surfaces for a new, round cylinder bore. Replacement pistons are usually a little heavier than OEM pistons, so balancing will need to happen.

In DFW, we've got lots of engine builders, even some great ones. Plus a good many major drag racers shops. But to me, the key thing is to request OEM-level parts (pistons, rings, bearings, seals) and let the shop source them from their suppliers. Pistons can be problematic, due to the decrease in compression height, but a little of this can be regained with head surfacing. OEM-spec clearances, too. Solid machine work.

IF things don't work right, STOP and see what's going on! There's not any hard, fast rules of finding a good engine builder, unfortunately. If Mopar Perf still sold 440/375 crate motors, I"d recommend that, but then they are probably contracting with somebody to build them with their parts, IF they were still selling them. Otherwise, you're on your own.

CBODY67
 
CBODY67, a show and tell picture, see if anyone knows what it is.
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Three simple questions: Where in MA? How far are you willing to drive? How much money do you have?
Crate engines have their place, and there are those who are wil be satisfied with them. Having used them as an auto tech, and worked at performance shops, and building for my own and others - I wouldn't ever use a crate engine. I care about engines too much to do so.
 
Crate engines are FAR from generic! If the OEM builds them, then they come down the same or similar assembly lines as a new engine in a vehicle would. Or they come from a highly-automated engine build location, as the new Corvette motors do. They meet all of the factory specs and quality control criteria, plus a warranty from the OEM.

Chevy used to have a crate engine that had to be disassembled BEFORE it was ever installed into a vehicle. In reality, it was just a way to sell all of the "good parts" rather than separately. A LS-6/LS-7 big block hybrid, of sorts, as to what was in it. Key thing, though, was that it never had an oil filter on it, which meant it was not "fire tested" at the plant, just put together, placed into an engine crate, and shipped for sale. In the mounting area for the oil filter, a thick paper plug was put in there. As the engine sat in a warehouse or on a dock somewhere, moisture would enter that open hold and rust would form. Sometimes, it would snake through the oil passages into the crank itself. End result, if you put a filter on it, then got it running, the accumulated light rust would trash the bearings. Not much run time, either, before you had to tear it all down and clean it out, which should have been done earlier. So, look for an oil filtefr on any crate motor you get.

The "crate engines" you purchase from "performance dealerships" which are NOT in the OEM (GM, Ford, or Mopar) performance catalogs, are done by an engine builder they contract to do the job. The seller determines what goes into the motor (cam, heads, pistons, bearings, timing chain, etc.) to hit a particular price point and power output. Probably some kind of warranty, too, BUT read that carefully! IF they'll give you a list of what was used in the engine, that's good, then you can possibly back-track to check prices and what you're paying for the engine. If not, then they could be using a variety of items they might not desire to mention.

A crate engine from a "seller" might not be the combination of parts you really need for your particular vehicle, so inquire as to if they might build you one with a milder cam, for example, or a different intake manifold . . . at what price. Don't necessarily take their word that what they're selling is right for your vehicle and use. Which is why GM has so many different crate engines, much less the "turn key" versions with carb, ignition, etc. already on them.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
Great suggestion, because it illustrates my issues with crate motors. I mean this sincerely, not as snark.

They only list one big block on their website: BPC4931CT - Blueprint Chrysler 493 Base Engine • Aluminum Heads • Flat Tappet Cam • Base • 525 HP / 590 FT LBS

There may be more options if you call them.

However, look at the cam spec! It's got 241 degrees of duration at 0.050" which is going to kill the low-end torque. I think that most crate engine options will be similar. It's a high-duration cam to get good power numbers with generic parts. That's fine if you have an A- or B-body, but if you're hauling around 4500 pounds or more, that's a big sacrifice to make.

If you can find a good machinist, you should rebuild it yourself. The machining is the hard part, and you're going to farm that out. The rest of it is being careful with your disassembly and re-assembly.

Detmatt used the 375hp factory 440 cam and is happy with the results. Unless you're going with a factory cam which has weirdly long duration (to my mind), I'd stay under 225 degrees at 0.050" lift. With a 112 LSA, that will give you more torque and good vacuum.

For $6500, you can do a really nice job if you're doing it yourself. That can probably include the trans and rear-end, and all the other bits that wear.

Edited to add: Why exactly are you rebuilding it? My original engine has 165k on it and it's a little tired, but still runs nice, and I wouldn't hesitate to drive it some pretty long distances. Is it possible it just needs good tuning? What is the compression on it?


With 493 cubes low end torque will not be a problem. Mine is similar, 9:1 RPM heads with a 248@.050" MP509 cam. The torque needle started to take a big swing by 1500 RPM and was 500 ft/lbs by 2000 and was never under that thru 5000. Peak torque was at 4000 RPM.

My one and only trip to the track with it got me a no traction 13.92@ 101MPH thru the mufflers with 2.76 gears.

Kevin
 
Big_John you are right. Why is this of importance? In reference to a quote from CBODY67 above (the correct radius of a fillet of a crankshaft) this is the gauge tool that is used for checking the radius of the crank and also checking the radius of the stone on the crankshaft grinder. Hence the tooling to do the job right at a "shop built engine" as opposed to one done at a mass assembler. More care and detail goes into a shop built engine. Just my opinion and observations.
 
Crate engines are generic. They are one package, done many times. With luck, the execution is done well. Mopar crates any larger than the 5.9L Magnum crates have been junk for more than a decade. Poor execution. Some work well. Some work ok. Some are junk straight away. But they all use the same parts. None built for one specific application - which is how I define "generic".
 
Key thing is getting a crate engine is to make sure that the block casting where the accessories mount on the front is the SAME as your existing block. On the B/RB engines, when they went to the short oil filter, the mountings for the power steering pump changed. This was mid-1970s on the air pump cars, when that started, as I recall. If not, you'll need to chase the new set of brackets. Check the casting date of the block/engine you're getting and match it against you existing block.

CBODY67
 
Crate engines are generic. They are one package, done many times. With luck, the execution is done well. Mopar crates any larger than the 5.9L Magnum crates have been junk for more than a decade. Poor execution. Some work well. Some work ok. Some are junk straight away. But they all use the same parts. None built for one specific application - which is how I define "generic".

BUT, a crate engine from one place is not the same as a crate engine from another place or what the OEM sells. Only similarity is that they come in a wooden crate or an enclosed plastic crate.

CBODY67
 
Seems like in the earlier years of OEM Chrysler "crate" engines, like in the 1980s, the short block assys were "reman" and the heads were new castings and parts?

If you purchase a non-OEM crate engine, ask where the block came from (new or used core).

But, don't let the "used core" issue get too much emphasis, although it can relate to the ultimate price. A "used core" to build the short block means (usually) .030 overbore to get to "fresh" metal anyway AND that the machine work will "stay put", as the block has aged and cured during it's prior use. Just DON'T automatically presume that everything in the crate engine is "all new stuff". What's IN the block can be new, but the block itself might not be.

CBODY67
 
Rebuilding an engine ain't rocket surgery.
I'm a case in point. No one more technically challenged than me. I did disassembly and assembly using a guide book and had a machine shop put my 318 back to stock specs. That was almost 15 years ago and the motor still runs like a top. Not sure where you are Tom but I find it hard to believe there are no shops within reasonable driving distance from you.
 
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