CRATE OR REBUILD ?

[Turboomni]

Hey all. What do you guys think of 440 source stuff? You all have me intrigued about the possibility of assembling my own engine with the help of a great machine shop. My present dream would be to rebuild my 69 Fury's 440 and stroke it and up it's very low compression ratio abit not to make it a drag racer but a low rpm torque mama that is happy in all driving conditions with a smooth idle and good vacuum. Although I built my Omni glhs I received my my short block and ported big valve head already done for me by a guy named Tim Hess in Fitchburg MA. He is now a machinist/ engine builder for Red Bull racing aircraft as being a pilot was his first love. His machine shop was impeccable and as you walked in I remember seeing a pair of Piper Cub wings in his shop he was restoring. He had a dyno room and did alot of full out drag racing and blown marine engines etc. He may still do some auto engine work I do not know.

 

[bajajoaquin]

I’ve never used their stuff but have been seriously considering it. I’m most likely to buy a pair of heads to put in stock crank and rods, but do have fantasies of installing one of their 505 kits.

The issue gets to be one of cascading demands. Flow more through the heads, up rate the cam, then add more cubes.... no way that gas can get out effectively through logs, so you’re looking at headers.

It’s really hard to tell where the point is that you’ve crossed a line into wasting money on performance that you’ve choked off with another part. There’s lots of info out there about building power, but not a lot about building smooth torque.

 

[twostick]

My 493 is an early 440Source kit.

Kevin.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The only things I have heard ( not necessarily 440 source)is tapered or out of round journals. Should be double checked, not just dropped in. The material is better than the original steel 4340 compared to 1053 original forged big block crank.
I am not a pro so take it for what it's worth.

 

[polarus]

Three simple questions: Where in MA? How far are you willing to drive? How much money do you have?
Crate engines have their place, and there are those who are wil be satisfied with them. Having used them as an auto tech, and worked at performance shops, and building for my own and others - I wouldn't ever use a crate engine. I care about engines too much to do so.

Sorry for the late reply. Paxton MA. just north of Worcester. I found a place to do the machine work. Might have a builder that will supervise my engine assembly. 7K. Will have to wait till Spring.

 

[polarus]

I'm a case in point. No one more technically challenged than me. I did disassembly and assembly using a guide book and had a machine shop put my 318 back to stock specs. That was almost 15 years ago and the motor still runs like a top. Not sure where you are Tom but I find it hard to believe there are no shops within reasonable driving distance from you.

You're right, I did find a reputable shop not to far from me. Just surprised to see all the places I used to go to are gone. Sign of the times I guess.

 

[Turboomni]

The issue gets to be one of cascading demands. Flow more through the heads, up rate the cam, then add more cubes.... no way that gas can get out effectively through logs, so you’re looking at headers.[/QUOTE}


I agree you that the engine is only as good as it's bottleneck in the exhaust. I do have HP manifolds but I hear they don't do much except look cool.
My thought is I would like more torque at a bit lower rpm as that is the area I use the car most.
Effortless gobs of torque from 2000 to 3500-4000 rpms. If the engine was stroked to 500 ci would it max out the manifolds at this low an rpm? I never run my 440 even close to 6000 rpms.

I agree you that the engine is only as good as it's bottleneck in the exhaust. I do have HP manifolds but I hear they don't do much except look cool.
My thought is I would like more torque at a bit lower rpm as that is the area I use the car most.
Effortless gobs of torque from 2000 to 3500-4000 rpms. If the engine was stroked to 500 ci would it max out the manifolds at this low an rpm? I never run my 440 even close to 6000 rpms.

 

[moper]

Sorry for the late reply. Paxton MA. just north of Worcester. I found a place to do the machine work. Might have a builder that will supervise my engine assembly. 7K. Will have to wait till Spring.

Ok. I'm about 45 minutes south of you. It's a drive but the shop I use is about 1 1/4 hrs down 396 from you on the CT shore in Groton. Work is highest quality but not cheap.

 

[bajajoaquin]

I agree you that the engine is only as good as it's bottleneck in the exhaust. I do have HP manifolds but I hear they don't do much except look cool.
My thought is I would like more torque at a bit lower rpm as that is the area I use the car most.
Effortless gobs of torque from 2000 to 3500-4000 rpms. If the engine was stroked to 500 ci would it max out the manifolds at this low an rpm? I never run my 440 even close to 6000 rpms.

You should reach out to MEV. He’s got a 440-source 505 and the heads. Maybe we should get him to post up or start a thread on his engine.

Here’s my take on your comments: at 500”, manifolds won’t flow past about 5,000 rpm so you’re looking at a cam that offers peak hp below that. I’d have to go back and read up on the rules of thumb for torque peaks, how much later hp peaks, etc., but I think you could reasonably expect 575 or 600 lb ft of torque in a well built engine. I really don’t know if you can flow that through manifolds realistically.

My goal is to find a combo that has good throttle response and power right off idle and improve on my factory rating of 480 lb ft at 2800. For this my best guess is to stay under 225 and probably under 220 degrees of duration at 0.050” on a LSA of 112. I’m seriously considering he smallest Lunati roller cam. My confidence in this is shaken by factory cams having over this but with LSAs of 113 or 114. Still working through this.

I keep threatening to put up my own thread with my ideas and calculations, but haven’t put them all together in a coherent form yet.

 

[polarus]

Ok. I'm about 45 minutes south of you. It's a drive but the shop I use is about 1 1/4 hrs down 396 from you on the CT shore in Groton. Work is highest quality but not cheap.

Do you know the name? I found a great shop in Fitchburg, MA. PK Machine, high end builds but a min. of 10K.

 

[Turboomni]

Do you know the name? I found a great shop in Fitchburg, MA. PK Machine, high end builds but a min. of 10K.

This is the machine shop I mentioned earlier that I had used in Fitchburg MA. Tim Hess sold it.

 

[Turboomni]

I keep threatening to put up my own thread with my ideas and calculations, but haven’t put them all together in a coherent form yet.

I wished you would sometime. I would be most interested.

 

[moper]

The only experience I have with Paul Kraus is a friend who almost lost his car when the ex-fueler crank used in his engine exploded some years ago. It took out the right front corner of the block, sending the parts into the front tire, cutting it off the wheel at the 1K mark.
On the upside it made 860hp on the dyno with Indy -1s (no easy feat in the early 2000s). Downside is the cheap crank could have killed him and totaled the car. I do not know PK personally, but I seriously doubt my friend would have forced him to use this crank.

I would recommend Larry's Auto Machine in Groton. Gary is the owner - good guy. Not cheap, but their product is very, very high quality. They do all my high-end machining.

In regard to 505" and manifolds - the blown down is what clears the cylinder. There is no scavenging to assist in cylinder filling, so the camshaft must be custom by someone that knows what's needed. I've had a 4.25" stroke B wedge make about 520hp with factory manifolds and reproduction exhaust on an E body. It also made it at 5600rpm. Dwayne Ported designed the camshaft. The same engine, with the same camshaft, with big tube headers and 3" performance exhaust made about 580 for some perspective. The cam doesn't make the power peak. It affects it, but is not the sole determining factor. And going "small" in camshaft in these larger engines cam be problematic as the cylinder pressures get high.

 

[MEV]

You should reach out to MEV. He’s got a 440-source 505 and the heads. Maybe we should get him to post up or start a thread on his engine.

Here’s my take on your comments: at 500”, manifolds won’t flow past about 5,000 rpm so you’re looking at a cam that offers peak hp below that. I’d have to go back and read up on the rules of thumb for torque peaks, how much later hp peaks, etc., but I think you could reasonably expect 575 or 600 lb ft of torque in a well built engine. I really don’t know if you can flow that through manifolds realistically.

My goal is to find a combo that has good throttle response and power right off idle and improve on my factory rating of 480 lb ft at 2800. For this my best guess is to stay under 225 and probably under 220 degrees of duration at 0.050” on a LSA of 112. I’m seriously considering he smallest Lunati roller cam. My confidence in this is shaken by factory cams having over this but with LSAs of 113 or 114. Still working through this.

I keep threatening to put up my own thread with my ideas and calculations, but haven’t put them all together in a coherent form yet.

What do you need to know? I have had really good luck with the 440 source 505/512 stroker kit and various 440 source parts and service.

I drive my car 80+ miles one way to the track and bolt on the drag radials, make some passes, bolt the street tires on and drive back home. This is a video from 2 years ago, the car has went quicker last year 12.63 on a 110 degree day with track temps over 135 degrees.



Recently one of the comp cams roller lifters spit out a pin on the link bar allowing the lifter to rotate in the bore, but this is no fault of 440 source.

The car is a daily driver, i drive it year round, to work, car shows, to the store, etc. It has a very mild converter (2800 stall), and 3:23 gears. I started off with stock log-style exhaust manifolds.