Edelbrock vs. anything else

The QJet was also on the 318s, too. Where ever a TQuad had been before.

CBODY67
I have a question about that. I've read that the only years for a 4bbl 318 were '79-'82. Wouldn't those have been the T-quad years? I looked at buying an '82 New Yorker Fifth Avenue (when it was still called the New Yorker) that had a 4 bbl. I don't remember which carb was on it. That was in '92.
 
I have a question about that. I've read that the only years for a 4bbl 318 were '79-'82. Wouldn't those have been the T-quad years? I looked at buying an '82 New Yorker Fifth Avenue (when it was still called the New Yorker) that had a 4 bbl. I don't remember which carb was on it. That was in '92.

As far as I can recall, I believe the thermoquad was used on the 1978 and 79 California cars, while the 2 bbls were used otherwise nation wide and the TQs maybe were used in subsequent years as well - just not sure on the later years. The proving grounds was responsible for developing the final calibrations for the emission packages for Federal and California cars, and the junk they supplied to California was so bad in 1977, that the California Air Resources Board made Chrysler recall them because a dynamometer test could not be conducted on a 318 2 bbl without the cars passing out on cold start on average 4 times while trying to run the confirmation tests at the CARB lab at about 72F no less! The "fix" that was developed was also really poor, and while it lessened pass outs, customers hated the cars - really poor performance and they surged heavily underway. The proving grounds was just incompetent in those years after the catalytic converter was developed and used beginning in 1975, and they had no idea how to take advantage of it. The dummies just kept adding more exhaust gas recirculation and retarded timing to make the cars more miserable as emission standards tightened - they just didn't care and they made it obvious (they called California the "land of fruits and nuts - who cares" was their exact words - like so many others on this site). So a 4 bbl TQ package was developed (politics made it virtually impossible to fix the 2 bbl package for California, so the fix was handed off to the 4bbl guys by a wise manager) for 1978 and later years for California by more competent engineers that took advantage of the catalytic converter and their package drove fine. They really didn't perform better at the top end though because the engineers wanted a smaller runner intake for the TQ on a 318 to improve cylinder velocities (and therefore torque) but the bean counters nixed it and just used the 360 intake. When all this was going down, it was clear where Chrysler was headed - bankruptcy in 1980. Really some crap management in those later years until Lee came in and cleaned house. But I was gone shortly thereafter.
 
The "small" Gran Fury police had QJets, which is where I saw them first. This was in the era of the Chrysler Fifth Avenues (as a model rather than an option on the R-platform cars). It was in that same general time frame that I became aware of the addition vacuum motor in the air cleaner snorkles which kept carb hot soak vapors in the air cleaner for recycling by the carbon canister.

CBODY67
 
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The initial CA and federal emissions standards were only for HC and CO. The NOx issues came later. The earlier cat converters only did HC and CO, not NOx (which was the later three-way converter). Same with GM and others.

The CHP cars were CA-spec cars, but through some holes in the CARB statutes, they could remove the muffler and do some other tweaks to improve pursuit performance. 1979 and 1980, as I recall. The liked the R-car platform but not the performance of the CA-spec engines. Seems like there was a hole in the federal statutes that exempted law enforcement vehicles from having to meet the fed emission standards? But everybody usually used existing CA-spec engines anyway.

Chrysler was able to better use engine tuning to achieve their earlier emissions control successes. The CAP system, which drove GM mad as Chrysler did it with a small additional cost as GM and Ford needed to have more expensive air pump systems. It was allegedly the more efficient Chrysler combustion chamber design that allowed this.

The initial foray into EGR was with "floor jets" in the intake manifold. Another low cost item that many grumbled about, but was pretty neat as long as things worked right, if you think about it. Although 1974 was the first Chrysler EGR valve. It was all about a "fine line" between emissions numbers and getting the cars to drive right. GM had their issues too! In general, it did seem that the Chryslers I was around ran better and got better fuel economy than their GM or Ford competitors. But there were also issues of cold-start driveability, for everybody. I could tune that out on my cars, but it deviated from factory spec when I did, but it worked better which should have been "cleaner".

There was a comparison article in the earlier 1970s about how "in-smogging" a motor made it work better and also burned cleaner. Richer mixture, more spark advance, etc. All of which would end up increasing the heat of combustion and NOx as HC and CO were decreased.

In the aftermarket, there is only ONE intake that fits 318s and 360s both. Same with intake manifold gaskets. Much of the things like "small ports for higher velocity" have turned out to be hype rather than fact, from what I've seen. The 360 2bbl intake on my '80 Newport looks like a normal 2bbl intake, except it has a 318-size Carter BBD carb on it. 318-size throttle bores. The carb mounting pad looks "modified" from what it would have been with the Holley 2245 2bbl for a 360 in prior years.

I can't count the number of tune-ups we did, with later displeased customers, as they sought to get "a skip" out of the engine in the 45mph range. That was the speed at which the torque converter locked-p on those 5.0L Caprices in the earlier 1980s. Or the number of phone calls I answered about changing rear axle ratios on a middle 1980s Chevy pickup with the OD automatics.

As it turned out, the dealers put "car/highway gears" in the pickups they ordered. As the GM torque converters were modulated by manifold vacuum, when going up a hill, they'd unlock, then lock-up when the load was decreased. With a 3.08 rear axle ratio and OD, it happened on normal interstate highway driving in hilly terrain. Just as it was supposed to do. If you ordered the optional 3.42 rear axle, that behavior was lessened. Gear and labor was about $1K back then. My suggestion was to wait and get another truck later on as their fuel savings would not justify that expense. When I told them what was happening and why, they understood. Obviously no one else had done that or knew why it was happening.

But, all that did pass with time and more refined computers and engines.

CBODY67
 
The initial CA and federal emissions standards were only for HC and CO. The NOx issues came later. The earlier cat converters only did HC and CO, not NOx (which was the later three-way converter). Same with GM and others.

The CHP cars were CA-spec cars, but through some holes in the CARB statutes, they could remove the muffler and do some other tweaks to improve pursuit performance. 1979 and 1980, as I recall. The liked the R-car platform but not the performance of the CA-spec engines. Seems like there was a hole in the federal statutes that exempted law enforcement vehicles from having to meet the fed emission standards? But everybody usually used existing CA-spec engines anyway.

Chrysler was able to better use engine tuning to achieve their earlier emissions control successes. The CAP system, which drove GM mad as Chrysler did it with a small additional cost as GM and Ford needed to have more expensive air pump systems. It was allegedly the more efficient Chrysler combustion chamber design that allowed this.

The initial foray into EGR was with "floor jets" in the intake manifold. Another low cost item that many grumbled about, but was pretty neat as long as things worked right, if you think about it. Although 1974 was the first Chrysler EGR valve. It was all about a "fine line" between emissions numbers and getting the cars to drive right. GM had their issues too! In general, it did seem that the Chryslers I was around ran better and got better fuel economy than their GM or Ford competitors. But there were also issues of cold-start driveability, for everybody. I could tune that out on my cars, but it deviated from factory spec when I did, but it worked better which should have been "cleaner".

There was a comparison article in the earlier 1970s about how "in-smogging" a motor made it work better and also burned cleaner. Richer mixture, more spark advance, etc. All of which would end up increasing the heat of combustion and NOx as HC and CO were decreased.

In the aftermarket, there is only ONE intake that fits 318s and 360s both. Same with intake manifold gaskets. Much of the things like "small ports for higher velocity" have turned out to be hype rather than fact, from what I've seen. The 360 2bbl intake on my '80 Newport looks like a normal 2bbl intake, except it has a 318-size Carter BBD carb on it. 318-size throttle bores. The carb mounting pad looks "modified" from what it would have been with the Holley 2245 2bbl for a 360 in prior years.

I can't count the number of tune-ups we did, with later displeased customers, as they sought to get "a skip" out of the engine in the 45mph range. That was the speed at which the torque converter locked-p on those 5.0L Caprices in the earlier 1980s. Or the number of phone calls I answered about changing rear axle ratios on a middle 1980s Chevy pickup with the OD automatics.

As it turned out, the dealers put "car/highway gears" in the pickups they ordered. As the GM torque converters were modulated by manifold vacuum, when going up a hill, they'd unlock, then lock-up when the load was decreased. With a 3.08 rear axle ratio and OD, it happened on normal interstate highway driving in hilly terrain. Just as it was supposed to do. If you ordered the optional 3.42 rear axle, that behavior was lessened. Gear and labor was about $1K back then. My suggestion was to wait and get another truck later on as their fuel savings would not justify that expense. When I told them what was happening and why, they understood. Obviously no one else had done that or knew why it was happening.

But, all that did pass with time and more refined computers and engines.

CBODY67

Do you or did you live in California during this time, or is your information predicated mostly on Federal cars? I was stationed in California working for Chrysler for some time and it was my job to fix many of the problems with the California cars, and it was also my job to evaluate competitive makes for driveability, fuel economy and performance in these years. All I can say is that your information is mostly wrong based on extensive evaluation of competitive makes. It is not worth trying to highlight all the areas you have commented on wrongly. Let me just say that GM cars drove, performed and got much better fuel economy than Chrysler products in the state - hands down. Ford was not as good as GM, but better than the really poor Chrysler products. Only Chrysler was ever recalled for unacceptable and dangerous driveability problems. And NOx emission standards were certainly an issue in the 70s as the standards continued to ratchet down. And EGR systems used bigger valves and less spark advance to meet the standards on Chrysler products, while GM and Ford much better utilized the catalytic converter to reduce HC and CO emissions and left their combustion calibrations reasonably rich to assist driveability, and got away with much less EGR and had more spark advance in their calibrations. That is why they always had better fuel economy in the 70s. It is an engineering fact that smaller runners in the 318 manifold would have increased torque, performance and driveability based on actual lab tests as well. Your comments seem to be just speculation than actual reality based on my lengthy evaluations at the time as well as those of my staff. By the way, the first EGR valves for Chrysler were before 1974, with most calibrations having the EGR valves by 1973 in California cars.
 
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