Ethanol free gas

[Turboomni]

I have been purging my 69 Fury III of ethanol gas in hopes of ridding the hot start problem.
I have loaded about 20 gallons of ethanol free gas the last few weeks. Things seemed better but then I had a really heat soaked start and she back fired abit but then started. Just wondering if this is a fluke or gas ain't the same any more.....or both.
440 engine that really puts the heat soak in the carb I would think,,,,,,

 

[Davea Lux]

I have been purging my 69 Fury III of ethanol gas in hopes of ridding the hot start problem.
I have loaded about 20 gallons of ethanol free gas the last few weeks. Things seemed better but then I had a really heat soaked start and she back fired abit but then started. Just wondering if this is a fluke or gas ain't the same any more.....or both.
440 engine that really puts the heat soak in the carb I would think,,,,,,

Have you checked to see if your heat riser is stuck shut? This will cause the carb to overheat and possibly boil dry, which would explain the hard start issue. Also plugs that have excessive gap can sometimes cause this issue as well.

Dave

 

[Turboomni]

Heat riser was stuck shut and fixed. The plugs are new and I always gap them abit tight because of my points ignition. Also added an Edelbrock 3/8ths inch carb insulator. Vacuum is 20 at idle. Many have said it is the nature of a big block stock 440. But I have no way of really knowing as I have never owned one before. Thanks for the reply.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I believe part of the problem is there is nothing to increase the surface tension of the gasoline (helps it atomize better), since the fuel systems are completely closed in modern vehicles there is no need for it.

 

[Turboomni]

Could very well be as my now antique 1986 glhs omni shelby with an antiquated batch fired fuel injectors do not have this problem with ethanol gas.

 

[66Newyorker]

The fuel that we get today is not the same as when our cars were made. The modern fuels are engineered more for fuel injected vehicles, for the most part after the fuel pump the system is sealed. Back in the day fuels had additives that would increase the surface tension making it harder for the fuel to evaporate. I have ran both blended and non blended fuels in my car with no real difference. If my car is shut down after a good run and sets for 15 mins or so it will be hard to start. What I do is hold the accelerator down part way and crank the engine it will always start. I also have a 440 in my car. For me no real big deal just part of driving a car that is almost as old as I am and older than most every thing else on the road today. And this is our daily driver.

 

[bluefury361]

I avoid the non ethanol gas around here because it's 87 octane. I use mid grade in my truck and premium in Jezebelle.

 

[CBODY67]

Carb "heat" was an issue with our '66 Newport when it was a "used car" with 7100 miles on it. Hot restarts always took a little longer than a cold start, especially in the summer. 'Fuel percolation", it was called. GMs didn't seem to have the same issues which Chryslers tended to.

It tended to be more about starting technique than anything else, it seemed. ANY additional throttle would result in accel pump fuel adding to the problem of too much gas being there, it seemed. This was well BEFORE ethanol'd fuels, too.

The ethanol might be a "high aromatic" that evaporates easily, but the Reid Vapor Pressure, as I understand it, is the main player in this deal, rather than ethanol per se. Best thing might be to add an electric fan to run a certain amount of time after the engine stops? Maybe even nosing it into the wind when it's parked?

CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

I have been purging my 69 Fury III of ethanol gas in hopes of ridding the hot start problem.
I have loaded about 20 gallons of ethanol free gas the last few weeks. Things seemed better but then I had a really heat soaked start and she back fired abit but then started. Just wondering if this is a fluke or gas ain't the same any more.....or both.
440 engine that really puts the heat soak in the carb I would think,,,,,,

Another thing you might try is put in a 160 degree thermostat. This might lower the carb temp enough to cure the hot start problem. Also adding a few ounces of octane booster will help lower the flash point of the fuel so the carb will not be as likely to boil.

Keep in mind, if you use any octane booster, do not add fuel stabilizer if you let the car sit over winter. Fuel stabilizer and octane booster do not play well together!

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

One potion not yet mentioned is Marvel Mystery Oil. It has a gasoline dosage listed. I suspect that any "oil" added to gasoline might help prevent moisture-related corrosion of metal parts. Kind of like the old "top oil" or "upper cylinder lube" that went in the gas decades ago? Bad thing is that any per tank additive adds extra costs to the fuel cost, even non-ethanol gasoline over E10. Possibly like the old Fram oil filter add . . . . "Pay me now or pay me later?"

CBODY67

 

[detmatt]

Marine 2 cycle oil to the tune of 1 oz per 5 gallons of gas, the extra cost is negligible.

 

[66Newyorker]

I have also used ATF in my fuel tank from time to time.

 

[saylor]

you have the stock mech fuel pump feeding this?

 

[Turboomni]

you have the stock mech fuel pump feeding this?

Yes I do. Vapor lock?

With Marvel oil and 2 cycle oil added to gas is this just to neutralize the effects of alc on metal parts or the hot start issue?

Another thing you might try is put in a 160 degree thermostat. This might lower the carb temp enough to cure the hot start problem. Also adding a few ounces of octane booster will help lower the flash point of the fuel so the carb will not be as likely to boil.

Interesting idea to try.

Best thing might be to add an electric fan to run a certain amount of time after the engine stops?

Another interesting idea. When I think of it I will at least pop the hood partially or fully open to let the sun spot cool down.

 

[CBODY67]

I have also used ATF in my fuel tank from time to time.

One of the first non-traditional additives I heard of people doing was when they'd get ready for a longer vacation trip, they'd add a gallon or so of diesel fuel to the gasoline they topped the tank off with. Supposed to clean and de-carbon the combustion chambers. Never did do that myself, choosing normal things like Berryman's B-12. But many used B-12 in their atf as an immediate clean-up prior to a fluid change, which worked pretty well.

CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

Remember that a thermostat is a flow restriction. The stated temperature is the temperature at which the thermostat opens, NOT particularly the temp at which the engine might run, especially in warmer weather (as an old-line Chrysler service manager point out years ago). The temp regulation function will not always result the desire for an engine to "run cooler", with a lower temp thermostat of 160degres. If going from a 195 to 180/185, probably so, but not especially going from 180 to 160 in the warmer times of the year.

Not sure why, but the A-blocks are known to "run cooler" than B/RB blocks. ON my '80 Newport 360, the pcv line has a low spot in it and that seems to collect grunge from the pcv vapors not getting evaporated out enough, even with 180 or 195 thermostats.

Might be best to focus on ensuring the engine starts easily and quickly (tune-up issues and settings) rather than "fight" the hot re-start issue, I suspect. Different brands of fuels might need to investigated, too.

Over the years, there have been many efforts at insulating the carb from the manifold and ambient under hood air temps. The BEST overall one is to make sure a OEM-style thick base gasket is used, rather than the thinner paper which many car kits tend to come with. GM had some nice ones with an aluminum plate, which I think Holley also sold back then. Plus Mr. Gasket had some aluminum plate "stacks" (cracked the base plate on an AVS with one of those! Tightening torque sequence is highly important on these!). Some drag racers have had good results with a wood spacer and thin gaskets.

Perhaps this might be one reason to spend the extra money for a Edelbrock of Street Demon with the "polished" exterior finish (to reflect heat)? Or combine that with the Street Demon's phenolic bowl option?

CBODY67

 

[commando1]

Another thing you might try is put in a 160 degree thermostat.

no no no no no...

 

[Davea Lux]

Remember that a thermostat is a flow restriction. The stated temperature is the temperature at which the thermostat opens, NOT particularly the temp at which the engine might run, especially in warmer weather (as an old-line Chrysler service manager point out years ago). The temp regulation function will not always result the desire for an engine to "run cooler", with a lower temp thermostat of 160degres. If going from a 195 to 180/185, probably so, but not especially going from 180 to 160 in the warmer times of the year.

Not sure why, but the A-blocks are known to "run cooler" than B/RB blocks. ON my '80 Newport 360, the pcv line has a low spot in it and that seems to collect grunge from the pcv vapors not getting evaporated out enough, even with 180 or 195 thermostats.

Might be best to focus on ensuring the engine starts easily and quickly (tune-up issues and settings) rather than "fight" the hot re-start issue, I suspect. Different brands of fuels might need to investigated, too.

Over the years, there have been many efforts at insulating the carb from the manifold and ambient under hood air temps. The BEST overall one is to make sure a OEM-style thick base gasket is used, rather than the thinner paper which many car kits tend to come with. GM had some nice ones with an aluminum plate, which I think Holley also sold back then. Plus Mr. Gasket had some aluminum plate "stacks" (cracked the base plate on an AVS with one of those! Tightening torque sequence is highly important on these!). Some drag racers have had good results with a wood spacer and thin gaskets.

Perhaps this might be one reason to spend the extra money for a Edelbrock of Street Demon with the "polished" exterior finish (to reflect heat)? Or combine that with the Street Demon's phenolic bowl option?

CBODY67

Point well taken regarding the fact that a 160 stat might not result in a 160 degree operating temperature. The purpose of a lower stat is to get more fluid flow, which assuming the rest of the cooling system is operating properly, will result in greater heat dissipation. In theory, this should help with the carb boil out problem. Years ago, we had fleet rigs running in the Eastern Oregon desert, each spring they got a 160 stat which did help with vapor lock and carb boiling problems. Each fall they would get a 180 stat for colder weather operation. Not a perfect solution, but one that worked reasonably well.

Dave

 

[detmatt]

You run the risk of not letting the coolant stay in the radiator long enough to reduce its temp before making it back into the hot engine.

 

[saforwardlook]

Fuel vapor pressure that is an indicator of fuel evaporation rates is controlled by EPA nationwide, and during the winter, it is allowed to increase to facilitate cold staring and cold weather operation in general and in the summer it is lowered to limit evaporative emissions from older vehicles and fuel sources in general. It doesn't matter whether the fuel has ethanol in it or not.

The problem is that the heat crossover underneath carburetors causes a lot of heat to be absorbed by the carburetor bowls especially after engine shutdown in hot weather. Thus the fuel in the bowl will evaporate and take the path of least resistance which is often right into the engine intake, thus creating a large puddle of fuel in cylinders as it distributes into the engine. It also partially empties the fuel bowl. That was the reason most OEM carburetors always had bowl vents, so the fuel vapors would exit into the atmosphere rather than into the engine since those vapors would cause hard starting due to flooding of the engine with hot fuel. If the bowl vent is not adjusted right, where it should be open at idle and closed at off idle throttle postiions, you will get flooding and hart hot starting (the fuel bowl needs to be topped off and the engine needs to be cleared of too much fuel that has accumulated in order to start reasonably well).

The advent of carbon canisters gave hot fuel vapors a place to accumulate and condense, and to be drawn back into the engine during normal engine operation, and not pollute the air due to fuel vapors that evaporate into the atmosphere, causing smog in urban areas (evaporative and tailpipe hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides from engine combustion combine in sunlight to create smog - the acrid stuff that creates visibility problems and causes breathing problems in excessive cases like Los Angeles before the introduction of emission controls).

This is why I will not buy an Edelbroack carburetor in a hot climate like the Los Angeles area where I live. They do not have bowl vents and none is even available , unlike Holley aftermarket carburetors that do offer them. So if you are using an Edelbrock carburetor in hot weather, expect prolonged hot starting issues, and there really is nothing you can do about it unless you resort to fabricating one somehow. That is why I usually stick with the factory AVS carburetors since they always have bowl vents.

Also, having a really effective radiator is really important do keep the coolest air possible flowing in the engine compartment and making sure engine temperatures don't get too high in hot weather operation. That is why I always specify very high fin density radiators and make sure my thermostatic fan drive is in good shape and the shrouds are in place. Yes, you will end up with a $500 26 inch radiator core rebuild, but you will limit hard starting issues, and your gaskets and seals will last longer, thereby lessening how much oil deposits in the engine compartment and under the car, which I hate. Yes, those radiators cost more, but the maintenance issues the accrue due to running your engine above about 200F maximum on a regular basis are more expensive, time consuming and aggravating overall than spending the money for a good radiator.