Has anyone had Road Force Balancing done (either to fix a problem, or because it's sort-of standard now) ?

[MoPar~Man]

I didn't know about this until just a few days ago. I watched a couple of YT videos, and this method does make sense that it can solve vibration problems that standard balancing doesn't fix.

I thought that there had been posts here in the past few months of people trying to solve drive-train shakes, but maybe I saw that somewhere else...?

Anyways, I called a bunch of tire shops in my town today, only 1 of them actually has the (I'm assuming) newer type balancer that can do this. I called a Ford dealership, yes their machine can also do it.

I have a pair of 215-75-14 tires (Hankook Kinergy) to mount onto a pair of magnum rims and I'm really thinking of driving across town to have them done at this shop ($40 to $60 each is what I was told on the phone). Mounting/balancing a pair on a regular balancer I'm looking at $70 or $75 (cash no paperwork) if I'm lucky.

Has anyone here had this done on a 14 or more likely 15 inch tire on steel wheels for their C-body?

 

[Big_John]

@cbarge is the guy to ask.

 

[cbarge]

I didn't know about this until just a few days ago. I watched a couple of YT videos, and this method does make sense that it can solve vibration problems that standard balancing doesn't fix.

I thought that there had been posts here in the past few months of people trying to solve drive-train shakes, but maybe I saw that somewhere else...?

Anyways, I called a bunch of tire shops in my town today, only 1 of them actually has the (I'm assuming) newer type balancer that can do this. I called a Ford dealership, yes their machine can also do it.

I have a pair of 215-75-14 tires (Hankook Kinergy) to mount onto a pair of magnum rims and I'm really thinking of driving across town to have them done at this shop ($40 to $60 each is what I was told on the phone). Mounting/balancing a pair on a regular balancer I'm looking at $70 or $75 (cash no paperwork) if I'm lucky.

Has anyone here had this done on a 14 or more likely 15 inch tire on steel wheels for their C-body?

You dont need the road force balancing.
What you do need is a tire shop that knows what they are doing.
I always used the " Fingers" that mounts the Magnum rims onto the balancer through the lug nut holes.
Never through the register as the register is not perfectly round.
ASk for " coated" wheel weights that fir yourxrims properly and on BOTH sides for an accurate balance.
Static balance is not 100% accurate despite the purdy lookin rim with no weights on the outside.
A good tire shop recalibrates their balancers at the beginning of each day for accuracy.
Hope this helps.

 

[MoPar~Man]

Should they be balanced with the center cone on or off the wheel? If I have the cones bolted to the wheel and I tell them not to take the cones off then they'll have to mount the rims using the lug holes.

 

[CBODY67]

First thing that struck me was the HIGH price to get the balancing done. In reality, "road force" balancing takes no more time or effort to do that regular balancing. We got our first RF balancer in the 1990s when that technology came out. So it's been around a good while!

Back then and prior, there tended to be some tires which would bubble-balance very well, but would have vibrations on the highway. This was reputed to be due to "hard spots" in the tire, which might well have related to how the plies were or were not overlapped when the basic carcas was laid-out in the initial stages of tire production, possibly. It happened more with some tire brands than others as not all tire production was completely computerized back then. It was common for a good balancer to split the weights between the inside and outside, although some aftermarket aluminum wheels had them taped to the to the middle of the inside of the rim.

As to the centering device, our machines had the spring-loaded cone that centered the wheel, no matter the style. It worked well. Might have been better to bolt the wheel to a plate and assemble the plate/wheel & tire to the balancer spindle, but never did see the need for that from the results as when the wheel is initially spun on the machine, ANY lateral and such run-out will be extremely visible.

The difference in the road force balancer is the extra "post" the tire turns against when it is affixed to the balancer spindle. Other than ensuring the new tire is firmly seated on the wheel's rim, it also measures the stiffness of the inflated tire, to check for variations as the wheel turns. Then, after the balancer does its thing, then it displays what weights to put where on the rim. Then a final check run before it's finished. IF there is too much imbalance, the machine might recommend repositioning the tire on the wheel.

That was in the 1990s. In more current times, with almost all tire production being computerized without human touch, overall tire quality of assembly should be much higher such that RF balancing might only be needed for vehicle/tires which can easily exceed 100mph road speed. Although the vast majority of tire shops have electronic balancers rated for RF balancing, but might not use it only for "difficult" balance situations. Which FURTHER makes those quoted prices too much, to me. Because, to me, it takes no more time to do a RF balance than a normal computerized balance job.

Personally, I would look for a shop that has a computerized balancer that is of recent vintage. Which they should have if they do a good volume in the tire shop. The computer on the tire machine indicates where the weights should be, split . . . inside or outside, in the initial machine set-up. Your choice. With everything being computerized, it probably would not matter which way you wanted things done. I DO concur on the "coated weights" situation, if you want to pay the price difference for them. They were not around back in the 1960s, that I know of.

Just some thoughts, my experiences, and my observations. BTAIM
CBODY67

 

[MoPar~Man]

First thing that struck me was the HIGH price to get the balancing done. In reality, "road force" balancing takes no more time or effort to do that regular balancing. We got our first RF balancer in the 1990s when that technology came out. So it's been around a good while!

Back then and prior, there tended to be some tires which would bubble-balance very well, but would have vibrations on the highway. This was reputed to be due to "hard spots" in the tire, which might well have related to how the plies were or were not overlapped when the basic carcas was laid-out in the initial stages of tire production, possibly. It happened more with some tire brands than others as not all tire production was completely computerized back then. It was common for a good balancer to split the weights between the inside and outside, although some aftermarket aluminum wheels had them taped to the to the middle of the inside of the rim.

As to the centering device, our machines had the spring-loaded cone that centered the wheel, no matter the style. It worked well. Might have been better to bolt the wheel to a plate and assemble the plate/wheel & tire to the balancer spindle, but never did see the need for that from the results as when the wheel is initially spun on the machine, ANY lateral and such run-out will be extremely visible.

The difference in the road force balancer is the extra "post" the tire turns against when it is affixed to the balancer spindle. Other than ensuring the new tire is firmly seated on the wheel's rim, it also measures the stiffness of the inflated tire, to check for variations as the wheel turns. Then, after the balancer does its thing, then it displays what weights to put where on the rim. Then a final check run before it's finished. IF there is too much imbalance, the machine might recommend repositioning the tire on the wheel.

That was in the 1990s. In more current times, with almost all tire production being computerized without human touch, overall tire quality of assembly should be much higher such that RF balancing might only be needed for vehicle/tires which can easily exceed 100mph road speed. Although the vast majority of tire shops have electronic balancers rated for RF balancing, but might not use it only for "difficult" balance situations. Which FURTHER makes those quoted prices too much, to me. Because, to me, it takes no more time to do a RF balance than a normal computerized balance job.

Personally, I would look for a shop that has a computerized balancer that is of recent vintage. Which they should have if they do a good volume in the tire shop. The computer on the tire machine indicates where the weights should be, split . . . inside or outside, in the initial machine set-up. Your choice. With everything being computerized, it probably would not matter which way you wanted things done. I DO concur on the "coated weights" situation, if you want to pay the price difference for them. They were not around back in the 1960s, that I know of.

Just some thoughts, my experiences, and my observations. BTAIM
CBODY67

Well, first off I'm looking at mounting and balancing. I'm not just rolling in a mounted tire and asking for it to be balanced. Add $5 for a new valve stem and core.

Next, if you do a search for "balancing Magnum rims" you'll see that you need an adapter flange with studs to balance these rims. I would think that anyone here with 1960's - 1970's era rims (road wheels, steel wheels, etc) would need to have their wheels "lug-centric" balanced vs any modern rim - which are "hub-centric". In other words, I thought the conventional wisdom is that our original steel wheels can't count on the center hub hole to be either perfectly round or the perfect center of rotation (or the ACTUAL center of rotation) of the rim vs the lug holes.

In other words, our stamped steel rims are centered by the studs and lug nuts, not necessarily by the center hub hole. And certainly the magnum rims were not designed to be hub-mounted / hub-centered or hub-balanced.

Next, road-force balancing requires that you first run a test that determines if the low point of the tire is mounted at the high point of the rim. The machine will show you where these points are, you mark the tire and the rim and if they don't line up, you take the wheel off, go to the tire changer, break the bead, rotate the tire on the rim so the points line up, then reflate the tire. Then take it back to the balancer for a verification spin and then you balance the tire. During the road-force spins, the tire spins against a roller that applies 1200 lbs of force against the tire. Some sort of force sensor measures the back-and-forth force against the axle. If the spin radius is perfectly even then you won't measure a bounce force. But if there is some variation then you'll get a force reading like 10, 20, 40, 60 pounds. By rotating the tire on the rim you can find a position that will minimize this force. Quite often, apparently, you can start with a tire with 20-30 lbs of road force and when you correct it, it drops by 10 lbs. It seems that this road force is the cause of mystery drive-train vibrations on cars where the wheels have previously been balanced using the regular balancers.

Hunter (the company that makes balancers) has on their website a balancer locator where you punch in your zip code / postal code and they show you who has what model of Hunter Balancer. From that I can see that most or all of the car dealerships have them (road-force balancers), very few independent or chain tire stores / repair garages have them.

 

[CBODY67]

I don't know that a Magnum 500 wheel is very much different from a 1978 Z/28 steel wheel, which is what is on my Camaro. Yes, the electronic balancers we had were Hunters.

Actually, there were TWO cones I used. One on the inner side of the wheel, for basic centering and another one on the outside, but I discovered I did not need to use the outer one if the inner one was "good" and I held the tire/wheel against it as I tightened the holding device against the wheel. Pre-load force balancing and afterward, too.

As to calibrations, the service manager had a used tire/wheel he kept for calibration purposes. Balanced when the Hunter rep came around periodically, then stored for reference to check things with if we started getting complaints from customers.

I was not the only one using the machines, as we normally sold Z/28s to customers and later balanced the wheels/tires as a normal part of our service operations. If I had any questions, I could easily consult techs with more experience than me in this area.

As I mentioned, if the wheels were not completely and accurately centered on the wheel balancer's spindle, it would be very obvious very quickly as the wheel started to spin. Then adjustments or changes would be made to correct that situation.

I have not fully-investigated the two 14x5.5" Chrysler-stamped logo Magnum 500 wheels I bought years ago, but I do know the centers of the Camaro wheels have three tabs near the inner top of their centers, which can make them hub-centric, as the ones going onto the rear axle flanges would be stud-centric. Same car.

As to wheel imperfections, I strongly suspect the Magnum 500s could be used as I did the Camaro Z/28 wheels, with the rear cone only. How many center caps on Magnum 500 wheels have you seen not be true as the wheel turns? Not being related to any lateral run-out which can be easily observed.

As I stated, I got desired results with how I did the balancing on my tires/wheels not using the mounting plates. Just using the cones instead. As long as the correct cone was used, by select fit, the wheel went on squarely. Just as would have happened if I had had a mounting plate to use. Because I was able to get the desired results without knowing what the Hunter recommendations might have been, does not mean my results are not valid. Especially as I did it on all four wheels. So, I refined what I did, if needed. Results are all that matters, no matter the methodology used (Theory Y management principle). Not unlike a tech leaving out a few steps in the FSM repair procedures, yet achieving the desired results.

Additionally, when I hauled the Z/28 wheels to Dallas, in the earlier 1980s, to get some Pirelli P77s installed on them, I did not see them use mounting plates for the balance operation. This was at a tire place that catered to higher-level cars, so I suspect they would have known how to do things correctly to get the desired results.

Also, I stated "my experiences". Proceed as you might desire and in a manner you are comfortable with.
CBODY67

 

[stain]

I have used a roadforce balancer ever since Hunter came out them. I roadforce EVERY tire I mount, it only takes 10 more seconds. It prevents comebacks and you can warn customers of potential problems if you have a tire that wont phase-match. To NOT do it seems lazy in my opinion.
I write the roadforce number on the inside of each tire.
All except studded tires, those tear up your roller.
Roadforcing a tire/wheel tells you the high/low/ hard spots of the wheel/tire combo and how to match those points to minimize vibration. It wont fix a bad tire.
It is VERY effective at fixing hard to cure tire shakes. It can tell you if you have a tire that will never balance. It also shows if you have a bent wheel.
Every tool is only as good as the user and these machines are no different. Proper mounting is key. The machine has a process to check proper mounting.
If the tires are on the car and you do not have a vibration, then I would not take the tires off the car to re-do them.
Tires that balance well can still be high roadforce causing vibration. How??? I describe it this way, you can balance a football, but it will still wobble when you roll it down the road.
If you want to get really into it, the Hunter machines have a feature that tells you which tire to mount on which wheel and how to clock each one. A looong process that I started once on my wife's Landcruiser and abandoned 1/4 of the way through!!!

 

[Polara_500_Jr]

Wow. Local shop here I go to, and volunteer at uses road force as it's default....no extra charge!

I'll be doing my pickup's new tires in 2 weeks myself after a volunteer work day, great knowing how and what is done this way.

For profit shop built to support a non profit mission that is actually 5 years older than the actual shops.
www.fixitforwardministry.com

We've now given away 588 cars, and have 50+ waiting for work to be done in order to donate them out as well! Gets me some wrenching fun, access to a shop after volunteer days, and I get to know some really good techs to bounce questions off of and get assistance. This is how I finally fixed the cruise speed stutter that had been plaguing my Polara, asked a question and went from there on my own.

 

[300rag]

That machine would have been a godsend back in '78 when i went endlessly between Ford and Firestone to get the shake out of my 721s. Ford said "Firestone problem", and Firestone said "Ford problem".

 

[stain]

That machine would have been a godsend back in '78 when i went endlessly between Ford and Firestone to get the shake out of my 721s. Ford said "Firestone problem", and Firestone said "Ford problem".

EXACTLY why this machine was introduced. No more passing the buck, it tells you if the tire is at fault or not. The customer and/or tech should not have to foot the bill for faulty tires.

 

[CBODY67]

In the earlier 2000s, we had a Goodyear rep who told me that Gyr did not have "Road Force Variation" in their corporate vocabulary. They termed it "Ride Disturbance". He told me some other stories about how unmounted tires should be stored, which could affect how the tires "balanced" and how some difficult cases where they had to mount the tires, drive them for 50 miles on a hot day, and THEN do the final electronic balance. The stories sounded like they might happen, but I wondered . . .

CBODY67