LATE to EARLY 440 A/C Fitment

FarCanal

FarCanal

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Hi Guys
Big Jim from Down Under
You may recognise my (Imported from your Country) 1976 New Yorker Coupe (pic)
Anywhoooo ..... whilst Importing I bought THIS (pic #2) - got it for $2k = WooHoo
TWO problems
(a) is there a Kit etc available so I can hook / bolt up my A/C (No Nut welded to Block)
(b) Scored the engine from a "Rebuilder" who went broke @ Auction, but something is NOT right = it's minimum idle etc is 13 degrees BTDC = making it try to turn over backwards when starting - this has killed 3 x Starter Motors, and now has destroyed the Ring Gear ! (YES, I know I shouldda looked before now, but once running was quite driveable, plus the 450+ Horses were just so much fun) lol ....Seriously, ya can't NOT set the timing chain incorrectly (a novice could do this), so is it the Oil Drive "SLOT" is NOT set Parallel to the Block Face ..... which would in effect, put the Distributor the equivalent of @ 1 tooth out ? Hoping you get what I'm trying to describe, Coz it's all coming back out of the car to CHECK the whole job ! ($$$ I ain't got)
Eternally grateful for any and all help / diagnosis / Where to find Seller of "Kit" (a) etc
Flying the Flag DownUnder = MOPAR or no Car
Cheers and New Years Greetings
Jim
P.S. Got my FIRST Dodge Phoenix (64) aged 16, been hotting them up & playing with them ever since !!!

NewYorkerSailClub4.jpg


ProxiV8#1a.jpg
 
Your distributor drive gear could easily be off by a cog or two. This has been addressed many times on this site and others. The first order of business is to get #1 cylinder top dead center on the compression stroke. Once there, the timing mark should be on zero. Back it up to 10 degrees BTC. Pull the distributor and check the drive gear slot. Parallel with the engine front to back? If not, use a large screw driver to turn the gear counter clockwise until it lines up in line. Turn you distributor so as to get the rotor pointed to between 7 and 8 o'clock. (looking at it from the front of the vehicle.) Now check the plug wires starting with #1 at the 7-8 o'clock position. Install the plug wires counter clockwise according to firing order.
As for you question about the A/C, I have no help for you. I got confused about the welded nut comment.
 
Many mid-'60s and earlier Chrysler B/RB engines had base timing specs of 12.5 degrees BTDC with none of the starting issues you mention. I ran our '66 Newport 383 2bbl at 15 degreeas BTDC as a matter of course, back then, as normal Premium leaded fuel was very available back then. No starting issues at all.

As the default mode, might just need to open the front cover and double-check the timing chain installation, TDC, what angle the keyway slot in the crank nose is pointint at verified #1 TDC, and then balancer "0" timing mark accuracy. Then the clocking of the oil pump drive, when it's installed. Then work from the distributor "outward" toward the plug wires and their respective spark plugs.

Nice looking Chrysler!
CBODY67
 
It’s in the car and running? Then put away the timing light and put the timing where the engine doesn’t ping and it starts good. How do you know the balancer timing mark is reading right and not slipped? How do you know Your timing light is correct?
Why is minimum ting 13.5 BTDC? Where does it say this?

What distributor and ignition do you have? Vacuum advance is hooked to what source?

Taking the engine apart won’t fix anything. Might have timing chain advanced or retarded but that’s it.
 
413 said:
It’s in the car and running? Then put away the timing light and put the timing where the engine doesn’t ping and it starts good. How do you know the balancer timing mark is reading right and not slipped? How do you know Your timing light is correct?
Why is minimum ting 13.5 BTDC? Where does it say this?

What distributor and ignition do you have? Vacuum advance is hooked to what source?

Taking the engine apart won’t fix anything. Might have timing chain advanced or retarded but that’s it.
Click to expand...

""put the timing where the engine doesn’t ping and it starts good"".
ANSWER : Setting the timing "by ear" - yes it idles sounds nice - THEN TURN IT OFF ! It won't start, and when it does, with a HUMUNGOUS BANG, and you can physically see the engine turn BACKWARDS, hence killing the engaged Starter Motors !!! It will NOT run or go @ anything under 13.5 Degrees, so tuning it 15+ makes it WORSE !!!
""How do you know the balancer timing mark is reading right and not slipped? How do you know Your timing light is correct""?
ANSWER ; It would have to "slip" a long way + 3 different Lights have been on it - all read the same
""What distributor and ignition do you have? Vacuum advance is hooked to what source""?
ANSWER : It is a Brand new, Big $$$, Billet full mechanical Distributor
WHEN ..... I get it running anywhere near close / I will have it re-arced
 
Sixpactogo said:
Your distributor drive gear could easily be off by a cog or two. This has been addressed many times on this site and others. The first order of business is to get #1 cylinder top dead center on the compression stroke. Once there, the timing mark should be on zero. Back it up to 10 degrees BTC. Pull the distributor and check the drive gear slot. Parallel with the engine front to back? If not, use a large screw driver to turn the gear counter clockwise until it lines up in line. Turn you distributor so as to get the rotor pointed to between 7 and 8 o'clock. (looking at it from the front of the vehicle.) Now check the plug wires starting with #1 at the 7-8 o'clock position. Install the plug wires counter clockwise according to firing order.
As for you question about the A/C, I have no help for you. I got confused about the welded nut comment.
Click to expand...

""I got confused about the welded nut comment""
ANSWER : On the 1976 440RB Engine pulled from the car (Genuine 50Kmiles) it has 1 large and 2 x smaller "NUTS" welded to the front right block face, where MY A/C bracketry is situated to hold the A/C unit in place ..... in earlier times, this MUST been differently addressed, so if you have the Brackets to situate an A/C Compressor on a pre 1970 Engine, I would gladly purchase them from who-ever !
 
"Welded nuts" . . . On the 440MHC short block I bought back in the middle 1980s, from Chrysler, there was one cast-in boss at the 10-11 o'clock position on the top of the block. Just one thin boss where a rear bracke t or similar would be anchored. The remains of that boss were on the bottom of the shipping crate. Still in good enough shape to be reassembled with JBWeld or similar. Perhaps your the "welded nut" issue is to replace something similar that was damaged as the block was handled or something, before you got it?

When the outer ring on the balancer slips, with the deterioration of the rubber isolator between it and the inner hub area, it usually slides rearward a bit, exposing more of the front edge of the rubber. Which is where the keyway in the crank might come into play.

When the #1 cyl is at verified TDC, with a dial indicator on the piston crown (the most accurate way to do it), then on some motors, an imaginary line upward from the keyway will be parallel with the #1 connecting rod (which you can visualize, also). The small block Chevy is this way.

Also of note on the SBC is that when the two timing marks on the timing set "are together"., #6 cyl is firing, not #1 as we always suspected. When the cam sprocket's dot is at 12Noon, THAT's when #1 fires, with the crank sproket also at 12Noon. With either location, it might be necessary to use a straight-edged ruler to verify the accuracy of these situations, for good measure.

Many years ago, a friend had rebuilt the SBC350 in his '77 Z/28. He did the distributor with the dots together, as that's what made sense to him. It was in the car ready for its first fire-off. It turned over nicely, acting like it was on the verge of starting, only to end in a spit-back through the carb. Sometimes, even with flames. Which as the time was now getting toward and past sundown, made for an interesting "light show". Kind of like the light show when a hot air balloon's hot air generator flares. After a few hours of trying, he gave up. Then, after consulting with our machine shop operative, he re-clocked the cam sprokets, verified where the distributor rotor was aimed, and it started right up. Of course, the distributor clocking is much easier to change on the B/RB Chrysler motors than indexing the distributor drive gear and the camshaft/oil pump drive on a SBC.

A few times when I'd be at the service dept of the local Chrysler dealership, a TX DPS would bring in a car that was not running/starting right. Knowing the general mileage the cars usually had, the old-line Chrysler service manager would get a wrench, loosen the distrributor hold-down bolt, then twist the distributor to advance it "one spark plug wire's position" on the distributor cap. If the car ran/started more "right", the diagnosis was "timing chain jumped one notch". With the OEM nylon-teeth cam sproket.

Many times, we want to trust "a rebuilder" to do things correctly. But perhaps that you got this engine at an auction (rebuilder closed up?), with all of these neat parts installed into it, it might have been good to consider it as "a core" until what's inside and correct assy is verified? More latitude could be given a "still in business" rebuilder, who can assist with any issues of getting things running, by observation, with a warranty.

Just my observations,
CBODY67
 
The bungs he refers to are for the power steering brackets, on the driver side of the block forward of the motor mount ears as per the pic.

cb1628ea006517db2ab42026110a66b9.jpg


The AC does not use these.

The earlier engines did not have the bungs cast into the block and used brackets that bolted the steering pump (this is a 68 set up):
DSC07605.JPG


They are readily available as it's muscle car stuff.

1966-74 A B E-Body Federal Power Steering Pump Bracket 1...
 
Mr C said:
The bungs he refers to are for the power steering brackets, on the driver side of the block forward of the motor mount ears as per the pic.

View attachment 427936

The AC does not use these.

The earlier engines did not have the bungs cast into the block and used brackets that bolted the steering pump (this is a 68 set up):
View attachment 427937

They are readily available as it's muscle car stuff.

1966-74 A B E-Body Federal Power Steering Pump Bracket 1...
Click to expand...

Howdy
Thank you for taking the time to reply - BUT - I have all the pictured parts, but cannot replace my A/C Unit, (Brakcets from there different) and pictured, this IS NOT an A/C equipped car. and I have more threaded "Bungs" and in different area placements the right Block face, on my 76, than you are picturing. UNFORTUNATELY I on-sold my Low Comp Motor, so I cannot take pics for you guys to REALLY show what is going on !!!. I am in the middle of Selling a Motorhome I own, and if it goes through I'm seriously considering purchasing a Source440 - 505 Stroker Kit for it, and build the bloomin thing myself. When I bought the pictured engine, ALL my mates told me to pull it down and check it / but from an Engine Builder, and those Gaskets looked so nice, I figured WHY just cost myself time & Money ??? Now, I am spewing I didn't, and all friends are loving my misfortune. coz they were pissed I picked it up for $2k. Anywhoooo ..... the latter seems to be the answer (if it's all coming 'out' again), and I gather you guys are cool with the 505 Kit, or is there better for the money = Please reply, Cheers Jim - DownUnder
NOTE " My engine can take a 575+ Lift cam - that in itself is cooooooooooooool !!! She rocks nicely on idle / but got no cam specs with it ???
P.S. ALL answers and time taken to reply, are greatly appreciated
 
FarCanal said:
Howdy
Thank you for taking the time to reply - BUT - I have all the pictured parts, but cannot replace my A/C Unit, (Brakcets from there different) and pictured, this IS NOT an A/C equipped car. and I have more threaded "Bungs" and in different area placements the right Block face, on my 76, than you are picturing. UNFORTUNATELY I on-sold my Low Comp Motor, so I cannot take pics for you guys to REALLY show what is going on !!!. I am in the middle of Selling a Motorhome I own, and if it goes through I'm seriously considering purchasing a Source440 - 505 Stroker Kit for it, and build the bloomin thing myself. When I bought the pictured engine, ALL my mates told me to pull it down and check it / but from an Engine Builder, and those Gaskets looked so nice, I figured WHY just cost myself time & Money ??? Now, I am spewing I didn't, and all friends are loving my misfortune. coz they were pissed I picked it up for $2k. Anywhoooo ..... the latter seems to be the answer (if it's all coming 'out' again), and I gather you guys are cool with the 505 Kit, or is there better for the money = Please reply, Cheers Jim - DownUnder
NOTE " My engine can take a 575+ Lift cam - that in itself is cooooooooooooool !!! She rocks nicely on idle / but got no cam specs with it ???
P.S. ALL answers and time taken to reply, are greatly appreciated
Click to expand...
Now I'm confused...even if your 76 is a non AC car, Chrysler block configurations are limited.

What I am hearing is that someone fitted AC to your non AC car, yes?
What compressor was used? Please post up pics of the configuration you had.

I just went to the garage and looked at the stock RV2 mounting on my 77 and the compressor is mounted using:
Front- Water pump housing bolts;
Top- Forward most threaded boss on head (also used for ground straps);
Bracket to forward most boss for coil bracket;
Bracket bolted to the 3 bolts holding the front of the turkey pan

No AC mounts go to the bungs on the block...as I said the power steering uses those.
 
Mr C said:
Now I'm confused...even if your 76 is a non AC car, Chrysler block configurations are limited.

What I am hearing is that someone fitted AC to your non AC car, yes?
What compressor was used? Please post up pics of the configuration you had.

I just went to the garage and looked at the stock RV2 mounting on my 77 and the compressor is mounted using:
Front- Water pump housing bolts;
Top- Forward most threaded boss on head (also used for ground straps);
Bracket to forward most boss for coil bracket;
Bracket bolted to the 3 bolts holding the front of the turkey pan

No AC mounts go to the bungs on the block...as I said the power steering uses those.
Click to expand...

My Car is FACTORY A/C equipped
The BIG Chrysler VTwin (like a Harley Motor) is standard = and YeeHaaa ... I found a pic of my "Under Bonnet".
Everything else bolted back nicely except for the A/C Unit - Have I lost brackets / bolts ??? (Clearly shouldda taken a **** load of pics before the change)
NOTE : I didn't do the Engine change (as I have all my life - now toooo old), but bloke that did, maintains my problems laid out above !!!
(Is it true, the the BIG HORSE 440 Engines in Chargers / Cuda's / Challengers etc NEVER came A/C equipped) ??? I have heard this several times ???

NewYorker#6.JPG
 
Overall, you friend's statement is wrong.

AC is rare in muscle cars as a generality, but to say they never came A/C equipped is inaccurate. Hemis and 6 Packs were not available with A/C. A/C was NA on the 440 Magnum with a stick .

So the 440 Magnum/ 727 was available with A/C.

1969 Charger as an example:

69_Charger0016.jpg


Your previous engine configuration pic overall looks like my 77 and I described the A/C mounting. Advise if you need pics.
 
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure the big block trucks and cars with A/C all used the same brackets, pulleys and belts in the mid to late 1970. You may be missing some brackets. Here are a couple pics of my 78 440 truck engine with A/C. I don't think any of the A/C brackets bolt to the front of the block other than the water pump housing and front corner of the head. Power steering brackets are different also for A/C application. Here are a couple pics of my truck 440. Not sure they will help though. As far as I remember, all 440 blocks have the same mounting holes or bungs as you called them. On another note, Did you get your distributor clocked correctly?

100_2872.JPG


100_2874.JPG
 
Mr C said:
Overall, you friend's statement is wrong.

AC is rare in muscle cars as a generality, but to say they never came A/C equipped is inaccurate. Hemis and 6 Packs were not available with A/C. A/C was NA on the 440 Magnum with a stick .

So the 440 Magnum/ 727 was available with A/C.

1969 Charger as an example:

View attachment 428288

Your previous engine configuration pic overall looks like my 77 and I described the A/C mounting. Advise if you need pics.
Click to expand...

Howdy
Thank you for your reply & taking an interest in my problem
ANY AND ALL PICTURES of the RIGHT HAND BANK = SHOWING HOW ANY MODEL A/C is CONNECTED would be of HELP !!!
Cheers
Jim - Adelaide - DownUnder
 
Sixpactogo said:
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure the big block trucks and cars with A/C all used the same brackets, pulleys and belts in the mid to late 1970. You may be missing some brackets. Here are a couple pics of my 78 440 truck engine with A/C. I don't think any of the A/C brackets bolt to the front of the block other than the water pump housing and front corner of the head. Power steering brackets are different also for A/C application. Here are a couple pics of my truck 440. Not sure they will help though. As far as I remember, all 440 blocks have the same mounting holes or bungs as you called them. On another note, Did you get your distributor clocked correctly?

View attachment 428298

View attachment 428299
Click to expand...

Howdy
Thanks also for your reply and pics !
WHAT A FREAKING AWESOME JOB ON YOUR OWN VEHICLE = Where were you, when I was looking for some-one to change my Engines ??? lol
( I paid $50.00 CASH per Hour too)
ANYWHOOOO ...... my vehicle does not have the "Idler Wheel" not that style of "Power Steering Pump" = mine is situated lower
Here's a thing (on "Clocking" of distributors - & NO to ?) ANYONE have a pic of WHERE their ROTOR BUTTON is pointing @ TDC -this may show a marked difference !
Thanx again
Cheers
Jim - Adelaide - DownUnder
 
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