Medina, a 1971 T-code Monaco

Turquoise? I got some mixed for the new oil pan for my '67 Newport. Using a Sherwin-Williams chip chart book, it was a perfect match for "Desert Turquoise" from a 1966 Dodge pickup. Factory exterior color, of all things. Mixed me a pint of acrylic enamel, put it in a Preval sprayer, "cut" with some generic "thinner" from Home Depot, worked great with great high gloss. That was in 1981.

ALWAYS nice to have access to a particular brand of spray paint that matches perfectly. There ARE some out there that match almost exactly, but some that don't. Trial/error/word of mouth is important.

Happy Easter, Y'all !
CBODY67
 
Thanks for all the responses, Guys. @saforwardlook @david hill @CBODY67 @Davea Lux — any comments or suggestions about the markings?



Rip, thank you for the photo! Your repainted engine looks great.

The color in the pic looks more turquoise than the color on my block, though. I wonder whether the ambient lighting might explain the difference, because I don’t think that the Chrysler paint color changed between 1966 and 1971 (Hirsch has the same color for all BB engines from ‘62 to ‘71). Do you happen to have a photo of your engine in sunlight? Alternatively @71Polara383 and I could use a color chart to put next to the engine to judge.

I have read other good things about the Hirsch paint here, and mostly good (but a couple of mixed) reviews of VHT.

I have never seen such markings before and I doubt those were made by the factory - they are just not typical of factory markings being that large and sloppy.
Also, factory engine colors were "early blue" in 1969 and earlier and "later" blue for 1970 and later. The earlier color had more of a green tint to it whereas the later colors were more pure blue.
 
I have them and have had on several motors.
 
Now I’m wondering what is on my factory +.020 over motor.?
 
This is the original 400 engine from a 52k mile 1974 Monaco.
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Thank you folks for all the feedback. There are really two questions here: (1) paint quality and (2) color match.

1. Quality:

Wyatt has never had a problem with how the VHT paint sprayed ("didn't come out stringy or spray funny at all"). More broadly, he says that he has "used a variety of VHT products throughout the years and never had an issue whatsoever." @Ripinator and others have been very happy with (or, like @Big_John, have only heard good things about) Hirsch paint.

--> Bottom line, it seems to me that folks have had good experiences with both Hirsch (all) and VHT (one exception is here). At this stage, therefore, what I am interested in is the paint that will be the right shade for a 1971 T-code (i.e., regular) 440 block.

2. Color:

You really cannot use the paint on the engine as reference after 50 years worth of heating/cooling cycles and exposed to the elements. Naturally it will be lighter than the new paint which will be darker as shown in Rip's pic.

Agreed! While the passage of time per se may or may not lead to discoloration, the grease running on the engine, the hot/cold cycles, the "elements" as you say -- all should for sure discolor the paint. I think that the difference between the original paint on Medina's block at the top and bottom of the block (as seen in the picture below, cropped from one that I posted at the top of page 8 in the present thread) is consistent with your point: the bottom of the engine looks more "blue" whereas the top looks more "green" — and I see a continuous gradation from the oil pan to the top of the block.

What I was comparing Rip's engine repaint to, therefore, was (i) not Medina's original engine paint but, rather, (ii) the VHT that @71Polara383 applied last summer when he replaced my water pump (as seen in the VHT/original comparison). That VHT paint was the "last can he had, that he finished on Medina's engine last summer." He had bought it in 2015 and had some left in the can (some used in 2015, some in 2017), but not enough so he only sprayed the intake (and not the water pump housing). That VHT Sp126 paint can be seen on Medina's engine in the pic below, in the area surrounded by a red "lasso". To my eyes, that color is very close to both Rip's engine color (which is the Hirsch turquoise and should not be correct for Medina) and to the faded/discolored top of Medina's engine -- but not quite to its bottom. That point is even clearer in the second photo below, which Wyatt took today in the daylight from the other side of the engine.

Hirsch offers two Mopar shades of engine blue (turquoise "for all BBs 1962-1971" and blue for all engines 1973-1983) whereas VHT offers a single color (SP126). The latter color is called "early Chrysler blue" and, as I noted in this post, the shade seems a close match to the Hirsch turquoise. Because @cbarge and @saforwardlook (above) say that Chrysler switched T-code engines (regular 440s) to corporate blue for 1970, and as @Ripinator provided a link on MyMopar.com that consistent with that claim, I should order a bluer paint -- so Hirsch. BUT, I don't think that the Hirsch corporate blue will match the current shade of Medina's paint. Furthermore, @ceebuddy (in this thread) reported that "regular 440 engines were corporate blue beginning in 1970 which is also (his) personal experience but some sources say there have been turquoise engines in 1970 and 1971, too."

So... I'll order both VHT SP126 and Hirsch "1973-1983 blue" and make a decision after seeing them.

Medina different paints as of 20200413 copy.jpg


Medina engine color other side daylight Resized_20200410_143735.jpg
 
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As I read these posts, it seems that between the various engine paint vendors and their color descriptions, things seem to be getting murkier than not. At least to me and what I remember seeing when the cars were new, at the dealerships. I can't help but wonder if the "early blue" is really turquoise and "late blue" is the light blue we accept as being correct? I consider turquoise in the "blue spectrum" and not otherwise, as in "blue with a hint of green". But as much as turquoise might "fade" from being exposed to "the elements" of underhood life, I don't see turquoise becoming light blue, personally. Not the way it would usually age, to me.

The thing that puzzles me is that there is model year overlap in the colors! IF the engines came form the same engine plant, for the given VIN code/power rating, that "mix/match" shouldn't happen, typically. Either one color or the other. UNLESS some of those engines came from a non-USA Chrysler engine plant? For non-USA-sold vehicles?

I understand the orange B/RB HP engines being orange and the normal-cam engines being blue, but the overlap of "early blue" and "later blue" just seems a bit out of whack to me. Especially if "early blue" is really "turquoise".

PERHAPS, what needs to happen is to get ahold of a Pantone color book. EACH shade of color has a number on it. The advertising people and screen printing industries rely on this standardized book to ensure that their customers' corporate logos and t-shirt artwork are consistently produced with accurate colors (which can also get into copyright issues, too).

I realize that Bill Hirsch's company is considered "industry standard" in the realm of engine paint, but I also recall one particular Buick Club of America national meet where a BIG situation resulted from points deduction for "incorrect engine color". That particular owner had purchased his engine paint from Hirsch, but it did not match the color on an unrestored car. Luckily, a Hirsch operative was at the show and was involved in getting the deal sorted-out. End result, Hirsch revised their Buick Green paint to conform with the unrestored car's engine paint color.

End result, IF the paint on an engine is considered "factory", just get the best match paint that can be found to paint the engine with. That way, you'll be putting it back like it came.

The bad thing is that some paints which are sold as "restoration correct" paints aren't quite that accurate, by observation. Even the more "consumer" Krylon Chevy Blue is much closer to Ford Blue than the much lighter Chevy/GM Corporate Blue. People used to laugh at that one, knowing it was very incorrect, but some used it anyway because they felt that Krylon knew what they were doing. But at that time, all of the various GM engine paints were available from the dealers, which many dealers stocked for use in their service departments.

At the Chrysler dealership level, "Chrysler Blue" as the blue that was on the model years after Chrysler Turquoise, but when Chrysler Blue was all they sold. Seems like the Krylon Chrysler Blue was a shade or two darker than the OEM-supplied spray paint, but still very close? This was in the later '70s time frame. When VHT paints were not as available as they came to be, when Krylon was the dominant brand of engine paint carried by the auto supplies, at least locally. VHT was in more of the "hot rod" places, back then.

I respectfully submit these comments, from my experiences back then, knowing that things have changed over the years. But, to me, the best thing to do is to match what the engine had on it, IF it is determined that the engine has not been repainted, regardless of what the color might be termed by those selling the particular paint.

Back when these particular cars were "new" or "unmolested used cars", I was in and out of the local, smaller town Chrysler/Plymouth (later adding Dodge) dealership. The owner normally didn't order any HP motors, unless a customer ordered one. Troublesome Holley carbs were an issue to him, back then, and they'd change a Holley to a similar AVS if there were any durability issues. Be that as it may. So most what he had were normal New Yorker 440/350s in the 440 realm of things. IF I'd seen a turquoise 440 past 1967, I would have wondered "Why?", when it should have been "blue". Perhaps the color sales brochures of each model year might be a resource in this deal?

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
I consider turquoise in the "blue spectrum" and not otherwise, as in "blue with a hint of green". But as much as turquoise might "fade" from being exposed to "the elements" of underhood life, I don't see turquoise becoming light blue, personally. Not the way it would usually age, to me.

Agreed. I am no paint expert, but it seems logical to me that a yellow/brown "coating" of various greases should blue make an underlying blue color greener, not the other way around.

The thing that puzzles me is that there is model year overlap in the colors! IF the engines came form the same engine plant, for the given VIN code/power rating, that "mix/match" shouldn't happen, typically. Either one color or the other. UNLESS some of those engines came from a non-USA Chrysler engine plant? For non-USA-sold vehicles? (...) the overlap of "early blue" and "later blue" just seems a bit out of whack to me.

Indeed. @71Polara383 and I will be taking pictures of all the stampings and sharing what we find. So far, the only stamping I've checked is the one to confirm that numbers match.

IF the paint on an engine is considered "factory", just get the best match paint that can be found to paint the engine with. That way, you'll be putting it back like it came. (...) to me, the best thing to do is to match what the engine had on it, IF it is determined that the engine has not been repainted, regardless of what the color might be termed by those selling the particular paint.

That is my plan. I have bought 3 cans each of the VHT SP126 and Hirsch "Chrysler Blue" paints, and will compare the match before proceeding.

Back when these particular cars were "new" or "unmolested used cars", I was in and out of the local, smaller town Chrysler/Plymouth (later adding Dodge) dealership. (...) most what he had were normal New Yorker 440/350s in the 440 realm of things. IF I'd seen a turquoise 440 past 1967, I would have wondered "Why?", when it should have been "blue".

Yep, that is my thinking too. Hence why I am ordering the Hirsch paint, even though I know already (from Wyatt's experiment last year) that the VHT paint matches the top of the engine (which Wyatt is sure to be the original paint).
 
@71Polara383 will be running a compression test (for peace of mind) tomorrow, and then he will be painting the engine this weekend — perfect weather expected. I’ve decided to go withBill Hirsch Chrysler Blue following a very informative discussion with many helpful members.

Medina’s booster is on its way back from a rebuild by the Power Booster Exchange — right in time to fix the gasket leak and put things back together in the next week or so. Then the seats will be back and reupholstered, the correct exhaust tip will be installed, the speedometer wobble will be fixed, and hopefully she’ll be good to enjoy the whole summer.
 
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Coming together...

I have a few more little parts to clean up and paint but we are mostly cleaned, painted and reassembled.

I put the exhaust manifolds on without gaskets like the factory intended...should I have used a thin coat of hi temp RTV to ensure no exhaust leaks or??? I would rather address it now vs later in the car.

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Looks good Wyatt! :thumbsup:
I hope you used plumber's dope on the wet exhaust manifold outer studs! That's if you had the studs out of the heads that is..
 
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In my opinion Wyatt it is just a matter of time before the C-body manifolds being that close to the valve covers, that heat will burn out the gaskets. Fel-pro makes a heat shield gasket that is meant to protect the valve cover and the paint. It is not original and not pretty but fel-pro tooled up and made them for a reason. I snuck them in on my imperial and don’t reGreat it.
 
Oh by the way great job, looks killer
 
Coming together...

I have a few more little parts to clean up and paint but we are mostly cleaned, painted and reassembled.

I put the exhaust manifolds on without gaskets like the factory intended...should I have used a thin coat of hi temp RTV to ensure no exhaust leaks or??? I would rather address it now vs later in the car.

View attachment 373869

View attachment 373870

Given the scores of engines I have put together over the years (I don't do the short blocks, as I have those farmed out), but otherwise when I put the heads and everything else on I end up using the fel pro exhaust manifold gaskets these days. I got tired of taking off the exhaust manifolds to plane them straight again to fix an exhaust leak. Yes, the factory didn't use them, but I believe it must have been a cost saving they just couldn't pass up. Lots of department heads, in order to get promoted for all the money they saved compared to the last manager, would save 5 cents in a door handle assembly spring if it would help them towards their upward progression. That is one of the first lessons I learned when I started working at Chrysler Engineering in Highland Park, MI in 1969.

In my first two years there, I was rotated through 8 different departments as a part of my hiring package because management wanted new employees to find the department they would enjoy working in the most to go permanent. The cheapest bastards in those years were in doors and hardware, the instrument panel lab (electrical stuff especially), and the cooling lab. Those of us working on cars of this vintage are still paying the price. :mob:

One other thing I usually do is to remove and replace all the studs for the exhaust manifolds that are in the heads and replace them with grade 8 studs to make sure they will not break off even again. Then I use ungraded nuts that are plated to reduce corrosion and also add an anti-sieze compound as well when I install the nuts. I don't like when the studs snap off when trying to remove siezed nuts.
 
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What did you use to paint the exhaust manifolds?

Hirsch Cast Iron Exhaust and Manifold Coating (1800 degree paint): link here.

I had also bought a can of VHT NU-Cast Engine Enamel in Cast Iron color (SP998), but I decided to go all-Hirsch (no ding on VHT, I just preferred to use same-brand colors; if I'd used the VHT SP126 for the block, I'd probably have used VHT SP998 for the manifolds).

PS: We did rely on VHT paint for the brackets etc. -- SP139 Satin Black engine enamel.
 
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Hirsch Cast Iron Exhaust and Manifold Coating (1800 degree paint): link here.

I had also bought a can of VHT NU-Cast Engine Enamel in Cast Iron color (SP998), but I decided to go all-Hirsch (no ding on VHT, I just preferred to use same-brand colors; if I'd used the VHT SP126 for the block, I'd probably have used the SP998 for the manifolds).

PS: We did rely on VHT paint for the brackets etc. -- SP139 Satin Black engine enamel.
Thanks, I was wondering about the temp, looks like 1800 degrees is high enough. I think the VHT is rated up to 2000 degrees.

I'm doing all this now myself, the pics and descriptions you and Wyatt have posted has been a great help, thank you.
 
Hirsch Cast Iron Exhaust and Manifold Coating (1800 degree paint): link here.

I had also bought a can of VHT NU-Cast Engine Enamel in Cast Iron color (SP998), but I decided to go all-Hirsch (no ding on VHT, I just preferred to use same-brand colors; if I'd used the VHT SP126 for the block, I'd probably have used the SP998 for the manifolds).

PS: We did rely on VHT paint for the brackets etc. -- SP139 Satin Black engine enamel.
Did you bake any of the parts?
I have found success in baking brackets, pulleys, etc...

They are delicious!
 
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