Old 413 Camshaft Selection

[Chryslertoo]

I'm rehashing a 413 rebuild my neighbor did for me for my 1964 Chrysler 300 (non letter). Rehash due to leaking head gasket(he is a Ford guy, what can I say?). Due to contaminated oil damage, I'd like to change out the cam with a better selection. I'd like to do this one time as the car has factory air so the tear-down is a PITA. The engine was bored out .030 and new Badger pistons installed that I purchased some 30 years ago. Some pertinent information:
516 heads w/ hard seats (73.5cc)
bore 4.22
3.23 rear
stock intake, exhaust manifolds
stock carb (4bbl)
deck clearance .093 inches (trouble?) (measured cylinders 1&4)
Calculated CR 9.1 - 9.2
Dual exhaust
Stock TC
Curb weight 4400 lbs
My goal is to have a nice reliable trip cruiser with a bit more zip than original. I don't plan on street racing or strip visits. My concern is the relatively large deck clearance of the Badger pistons. They were supposed to be 10.1 compression flat top pistons. With today's gas, the lowered compression coupled with Felpro .038" gaskets (9.2) is not a bad thing. However, I'll have a quench depth of .131" which is a far cry from the "ideal" .045" to .030 I've read about. Obviously with that car I'm looking for some low end grunt to get it moving without the spark knock at mid range and hard acceleration and good vacuum to make it stop. Any suggestions on cam selection? (nothing like the Holy Grail, huh?) I've done a lot of investigating on dynamic compression ratios and using pump gas (91-93 octane), but ranges are all over the place. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[twostick]

Please define contaminated oil damage and how you determined it.

Also there are only 2 types of "guys", competent and incompetent.

Nice car by the way.

Kevin

 

[Davea Lux]

With a 9.2 comp ratio you should be able to run pump premium with the 516 heads. What cam you run is going to depend on how much more horsepower you are looking for. The first thing for a mild upgrade would be a 69-70 440 HP cam. That will give you .450/.465 lift as opposed to the 413, 360hp cam at .430/.430. That will give a good boost in performance and is a good choice for all around street use, you would also want to upgrade to the stiffer valve springs that were run with that cam. Your limiting factor with going much bigger than that on the cam choice is going to be the stock log manifolds as they do not perform well over about 4000 rpms.

Dave

 

[furious70]

I agree with Dave, put something like the 440hp cam in. Those stock 516's aren't going to let any cam be very effective. Neither will that early low rise intake.

 

[CBODY67]

On the pistons, along about that time, most of the stock replacement pistons were "de-stroked" .020" to allow for the lower octane fuel from back then AND very possibly in the future. So you ended up about right with the compression ratio you calculate.

On the cam, it appears that the 256/260 cam which replaced the prior "4bbl cam" of '64 is a better cam. To me, the issue with going to the 440HP cam is the exhaust manifolds on the car and the under-car exhaust system pipe diameters. Enlarge all for that to the pipe sizing of '66 and later and then the HP cam can work better. Plus, with the larger pipes and manifold (cross-section and outlet gasket diameter), then a slightly larger carb might be needed, too?

Remember that Chrysler built "combination" engines. Everything was designed to work together for the best results. Change one thing, too much, and other things will need to be re-matched accordingly. Which can then need a larger intake manifold.

I always wondered why the 413s, which had similar power ratings as the '66 440, didn't have the same vehicle performance as the '66 440s. When going through a Chrysler dealer's parts closeout warehouse, I found a rh exhaust manifold for a '65 B/RB engine. The outlet of the manifold was not larger than 2.0", more like what came on small block Chevys of that time. THEN I knew where the power went! The 256/260 cam in the '66 440, plus the larger exhaust manifold outlet and pipe diameter, plus a slightly higher cfm (550 to maybe 600cfm?) would explain the greater power of the base 440 vs a 413/360, I suspect.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

The issue of "quench dimension" is something that David Vizzard mentioned in one of his books. Seems like it was more like .020"? Apparently there is some sort of harmonic frequency that cancels out the detonation activity, and the quench dimension of .020" keeps it from happening quite as easily as a larger dimension? Therefore, an engine with the .020" dimension would be more resistant to detonation at a higher mechanical compression ratio than one with a greater dimension.

The other side issue is that the increased quench of a closed chamber head also relates to the "squish" of the mixture, which pushed the mixture in that "tight area" of the total combustion chamber out into the main combustion chamber area, for more turbulence in the mixture before it ignites. Which can be good for efficiency and power. BUT I also suspect that you'll need an engine dyno to measure that power. Part-throttle fuel economy and throttle response might be helped, possibly?

Combustion chamber dynamics was still a somewhat crude science in the '60s, other than the Stratified Charge orientations and "swirl motion" that some diesels were designed to have. Some of those "tall dome" aftermarket pistons tended to not let the complete mixture ignite as the flame front never got past the dome to "the other side" of the chamber, it seemed. But they sure did look good!

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Chryslertoo]

Please define contaminated oil damage and how you determined it.

Also there are only 2 types of "guys", competent and incompetent.

Nice car by the way.

Kevin

The oil had antifreeze in it from a supposed leaking head gasket that leaked over a 9 month storage period. Car was taken out of storage and run about 1.5 miles. That evening I checked all fluids before going out for the evening and found the oil level high and gray. Radiator was empty. Upon tear-down, the cam looked to have some uneven wear and I decided to replace it while it was down rather than sometime later. Removing all that factory air equipment is a real pain and something I'd rather do once. This may be a long term confidence issue rather than an actual problem of wear. I just don't trust the cam right now. An upgrade would not hurt either.

 

[Davea Lux]

The oil had antifreeze in it from a supposed leaking head gasket that leaked over a 9 month storage period. Car was taken out of storage and run about 1.5 miles. That evening I checked all fluids before going out for the evening and found the oil level high and gray. Radiator was empty. Upon tear-down, the cam looked to have some uneven wear and I decided to replace it while it was down rather than sometime later. Removing all that factory air equipment is a real pain and something I'd rather do once. This may be a long term confidence issue rather than an actual problem of wear. I just don't trust the cam right now. An upgrade would not hurt either.

The head gaskets would sometimes leak if they rusted out from extensive storage. Be sure to check the block deck and have the heads magnafluxed to be sure they are not cracked. If possible, check the old gaskets to see if the area leaking is apparent and check that area of the block and head carefully for imperfections. Metal shim gaskets like the stock ones on your 413 are pretty much bullet proof as long as the heads are properly torqued. With the sandwich style gasket, that is another matter as they are more prone to failure and torquing and re-torquing is very important.

Dave

 

[Chryslertoo]

The head gaskets would sometimes leak if they rusted out from extensive storage. Be sure to check the block deck and have the heads magnafluxed to be sure they are not cracked. If possible, check the old gaskets to see if the area leaking is apparent and check that area of the block and head carefully for imperfections. Metal shim gaskets like the stock ones on your 413 are pretty much bullet proof as long as the heads are properly torqued. With the sandwich style gasket, that is another matter as they are more prone to failure and torquing and re-torquing is very important.

Dave

Just got the heads back from the shop, no cracks. I checked out the block with at .002 feeler, all good in multiple directions. The engine only had perhaps 500 miles on it since the rebuild and the guy used the Felpro Perma-Torque gaskets which supposedly have a good reputation for sealing. Would I be better off using the OEM style shim gasket? Both the machine shop and I checked the gaskets and really could not find an obvious leak track, but then the engine hadn't seen much service. It would be unusual for the block to be cracked wouldn't it?

 

[CBODY67]

The steel shim gaskets were usually about .020" thick. The composition gaskets (sandwich) were usually about .040" thick, when torqued, which is what I believe the noted FelPro gaskets approximately are.

Was the engine driven in short trips only, or in drives of over 30 miles (at highway speeds) each? I'm thinking that possibly the gray color might have come from crankshaft condensation from the short trips. Is it a road draft tube crankcase vent system or does it have a pcv valve?

What about the radiator cap holding pressure? Look for coolant trails from the overflow tube or elsewhere. A trail from the water pump "weep hole"?

Even a "Ford guy" should know how to correctly torque a cylinder head. As the torque sequence would be the same no matter what brand of motor. Even that it should be done in even torque increments until the final torque level is reached.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

Just got the heads back from the shop, no cracks. I checked out the block with at .002 feeler, all good in multiple directions. The engine only had perhaps 500 miles on it since the rebuild and the guy used the Felpro Perma-Torque gaskets which supposedly have a good reputation for sealing. Would I be better off using the OEM style shim gasket? Both the machine shop and I checked the gaskets and really could not find an obvious leak track, but then the engine hadn't seen much service. It would be unusual for the block to be cracked wouldn't it?

Those blocks were usually pretty sturdy. At only .30 over it should not have cracked from over boring. Once in a great while you can get a crack from one of the head bolts closest to a cylinder; a crack will form in the bolt socket and go across the deck of the block and down into the top of the cylinder into the water jacket. Did you check the spark plugs for discoloration? Anti freeze will usually leave a colored residue on the white insulator of the spark plug above the electrode. Perma-torque gaskets are usually pretty good about sealing, but cleanliness is very important, there can not be any oil on any sealing surface or the gasket will not bond. The perma-torque gasket is thicker than the steel shim gaskets, so you comp ratio will go up a little. I attached an example of a deck crack from an old junk engine. If you were doing a rebuild, I would suggest magnafluxing the block as well, but that is not really an option in this case because you would never get all the iron dust out of you engine. You will probably be better served to put it back together and hope for the best. I would also suggest that you pull the pan as there may be a bunch of crap on the bottom from the oil-antifreeze mix. You might also want to have any oil in the bottom of the pan tested to see if you have antifreeze present.

Dave

 

[Chryslertoo]

The steel shim gaskets were usually about .020" thick. The composition gaskets (sandwich) were usually about .040" thick, when torqued, which is what I believe the noted FelPro gaskets approximately are.

Was the engine driven in short trips only, or in drives of over 30 miles (at highway speeds) each? I'm thinking that possibly the gray color might have come from crankshaft condensation from the short trips. Is it a road draft tube crankcase vent system or does it have a pcv valve?

What about the radiator cap holding pressure? Look for coolant trails from the overflow tube or elsewhere. A trail from the water pump "weep hole"?

Even a "Ford guy" should know how to correctly torque a cylinder head. As the torque sequence would be the same no matter what brand of motor. Even that it should be done in even torque increments until the final torque level is reached.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

The gray came from the coolant. The oil level was up about 2 qts. The water pump is new not rebuilt. Running around would always get the motor up to operating temperature and several long trips to car shows would burn off any minor condensation. I do now recall seeing some bubbles in the rad.tank hoping it was just trapped air in the system. Seemed a minor issue at the time. Not any meure! (Peter Sellers in the Pink Panther)

 

[twostick]

Hard to do an autopsy from a distance. How do the lifters look? Any strange wear on the faces?

If the lifters show no signs of stress I might be tempted to check the heads to make sure they aren't cracked or warped, install new gaskets and button it back up. It doesn't sound like it ran long with coolant in it. If you think it did you might want to consider pulling it all the way down to inspect the crank bearings too.

Kevin

 

[Chryslertoo]

Hard to do an autopsy from a distance. How do the lifters look? Any strange wear on the faces?

If the lifters show no signs of stress I might be tempted to check the heads to make sure they aren't cracked or warped, install new gaskets and button it back up. It doesn't sound like it ran long with coolant in it. If you think it did you might want to consider pulling it all the way down to inspect the crank bearings too.

Kevin

To me, the lifter wear looks suspect. Under magnification you are able to see pitting. I've posted a few pictures.

 

[Davea Lux]

That looks more like rust than wear pitting, you engine was probably getting coolant inside as soon as it was first started after the rebuild.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

What did the cam lobe it matched look like?

CBODY67

 

[Chryslertoo]

What did the cam lobe it matched look like?

CBODY67

Sorry for the delayed response. Life happens. Here are some pictures of the cam. Unfortunately I can't match the lifter previously posted with it's lobe. All of the lifters look identical to the previous postings. I'm in the process of cc'ing the heads to get the actual volume rather than relying on published data. The goal is to get a reasonable calculated dynamic compression ratio comparison with different cam profiles.

 

[Davea Lux]

How did the cam bearings look?
Dave

 

[Ripinator]

Sorry for the delayed response. Life happens. Here are some pictures of the cam. Unfortunately I can't match the lifter previously posted with it's lobe. All of the lifters look identical to the previous postings. I'm in the process of cc'ing the heads to get the actual volume rather than relying on published data. The goal is to get a reasonable calculated dynamic compression ratio comparison with different cam profiles.View attachment 370738 View attachment 370739 View attachment 370740 View attachment 370741

That all looks pretty ugly. Looks like there may be another engine rebuild in your future. . .

 

[Davea Lux]

By the looks of the lifters and the cam shaft, I think you had a corrosion problem while the engine was sitting,

Dave