Pertronix or....? And why?
- Thread starter Dsertdog
- Start date
GJS
Senior Member
I've run Pertronix in every C Body I've ever owned and have never encountered a problem. My first kit was for my 69 Fury (short lived car) and wound up in my 68 Monaco for a good 40,000 miles. I put a kit on the 440 that wound up in that Monaco as well which also didn't fail in 40,000 miles.
I've read some crap about them but I've never witnessed a failure.
I've read some crap about them but I've never witnessed a failure.
Last time something similar to this thread came up, I did some looking around. As with some others, "it's been a while" since I worried about any of this stuff, using the MP Kit many years ago. It seems that the "electronic ignition conversion kit" that almost everybody sells, which is "under cap", all look like a Pertronix item with different housing colors. Don't know if they actually are repackaged Pertronix (and I'm not going to speculate on that issue!), just that they all look similar and are priced similarly. Be that as it may.
Since Holley acquired Mallory, they've got an electronic kit that looks like the old Mallory Unilite system. At the time, when it was new, it appeared to be the most accurate way of triggering things, to me. And it still might be. It always seemed that magnetism would build, peak, diminish with each cycle whereas the LED signal was either "on" or "off", for a more precise situation. Be that as it may.
The old ACCEL electronic ignition distributors looked to be an almost exact copy of what Chrysler had, but now they're gone. FEW of the old hot rod ignition suppliers are what they were years ago. MSD, for example, has probably changed ownership 10 times? As with other "name brands of old", which used to be free-standing companies (as ANCO and Trico) are now part of comglomerates of similar auto parts brands. The name remains, but does the prior quality?
As I might need to accumulate some new electronic ignition "stuff' for one or more of my cars, the way I'm now leaning is more toward and OEM-look situation. Using a quality reman distributor, change the springs somewhat, use the MP wiring harness, the ECU and VR from above, and let it be.
The Davis Unified Ignition HEI set-up can be interesting, along with the knock-limiter addition I mentioned above, BUT to me, it's overkill AND just doesn't look right under a Mopar Hood. Sorry.
The alternative would be the under-cap kit, whether from MSD, Pertronix, or otherwise. It looks pretty easy to make happen for a little bit of $$.
As for OEM-replacement coils, I suspect they are (and have been) off-shore for several decades. Even if they come in an OEM-brand box. The new ones I've bought run no better than the old ones I was replacing. Which tend to make me not believe that they wear out as much as some might claim.
Which ever way it happens, a well-timed spark of sufficient strength is all that's needed. Whether from a new points distributor with sharp cam lobes, or some sort of electronic mechanism. The landscape is certainly not what it was 25 years ago!
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
Since Holley acquired Mallory, they've got an electronic kit that looks like the old Mallory Unilite system. At the time, when it was new, it appeared to be the most accurate way of triggering things, to me. And it still might be. It always seemed that magnetism would build, peak, diminish with each cycle whereas the LED signal was either "on" or "off", for a more precise situation. Be that as it may.
The old ACCEL electronic ignition distributors looked to be an almost exact copy of what Chrysler had, but now they're gone. FEW of the old hot rod ignition suppliers are what they were years ago. MSD, for example, has probably changed ownership 10 times? As with other "name brands of old", which used to be free-standing companies (as ANCO and Trico) are now part of comglomerates of similar auto parts brands. The name remains, but does the prior quality?
As I might need to accumulate some new electronic ignition "stuff' for one or more of my cars, the way I'm now leaning is more toward and OEM-look situation. Using a quality reman distributor, change the springs somewhat, use the MP wiring harness, the ECU and VR from above, and let it be.
The Davis Unified Ignition HEI set-up can be interesting, along with the knock-limiter addition I mentioned above, BUT to me, it's overkill AND just doesn't look right under a Mopar Hood. Sorry.
The alternative would be the under-cap kit, whether from MSD, Pertronix, or otherwise. It looks pretty easy to make happen for a little bit of $$.
As for OEM-replacement coils, I suspect they are (and have been) off-shore for several decades. Even if they come in an OEM-brand box. The new ones I've bought run no better than the old ones I was replacing. Which tend to make me not believe that they wear out as much as some might claim.
Which ever way it happens, a well-timed spark of sufficient strength is all that's needed. Whether from a new points distributor with sharp cam lobes, or some sort of electronic mechanism. The landscape is certainly not what it was 25 years ago!
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
High Quality Mopar Replacement Or Conversion Ignition Module / ECU Black 5-Pin | eBay
This is the link to the ECU's that I sell, made in China by Regitar USA, the same company that makes the solid state voltage regulators that I also sell. Marine rated. High quality. I've been selling them for around 15 years and use them on my own cars.
This is the link to the ECU's that I sell, made in China by Regitar USA, the same company that makes the solid state voltage regulators that I also sell. Marine rated. High quality. I've been selling them for around 15 years and use them on my own cars.
Dsertdog
Old man with an old guitar, and a blue note.
Absolutely sir!
I've been in the parts business just about 30 years. I started in 1977 when most speed companies, and ALL the major parts brands were wholly owned companies.
Then Mr Gasket bought Accell from Echlin. The avalanche started with a tiny snowball.
I can tell you, without being fired by my employer, that one company owns all the major ignition parts companies, Echlin, Standard, Borg Warner, and Niehoff. Their plants cast all the "private label" stuff you buy at the discounters.
The same company also owns Wix. They also make many private label "discount filters" They also own a suspension part company. I can't tell you which one.
Walker wanted Cherry bombs and Thrush, so Tenneco, their holding company bought them. actually they bought Maremont.
Mr. Gasket owns or has eaten pretty much every speed product company in the US and turned their products into crap. Then sold off the the corpses.
ALL and I mean ALL of your rebuilt starters, alternators, door motors , etc, are disassembled in a plant in Arizona outside of Phoenix and trucked to Mexico where they are rebuilt. They are placed into various companies boxes and sent to their distribution centers. It's always a thrill to get a competitors box in a direct ship! A-1 Cardone owns the monopoly on rebuilds.
No matter what the package says or states, it's a Dorman part, unless it came from a dealer.
I stopped liking Cragar wheels when they took their plating and casting operations to South America in the late 70's. Cragar now owns the Keystone name as well as some others.
I talked to Rob Mancini at Mancini racing today. He tells me the his conversion package and Proform's use Bosch built distributors. He assures me there will be no issues but the Mancini kits use an ECU manufactured by the original Chrysler vendor and they supply a period correct ballast resistor. I've never had an issue with Mancini's and bought a lot of stuff from them way back in the day.
I've been in the parts business just about 30 years. I started in 1977 when most speed companies, and ALL the major parts brands were wholly owned companies.
Then Mr Gasket bought Accell from Echlin. The avalanche started with a tiny snowball.
I can tell you, without being fired by my employer, that one company owns all the major ignition parts companies, Echlin, Standard, Borg Warner, and Niehoff. Their plants cast all the "private label" stuff you buy at the discounters.
The same company also owns Wix. They also make many private label "discount filters" They also own a suspension part company. I can't tell you which one.
Walker wanted Cherry bombs and Thrush, so Tenneco, their holding company bought them. actually they bought Maremont.
Mr. Gasket owns or has eaten pretty much every speed product company in the US and turned their products into crap. Then sold off the the corpses.
ALL and I mean ALL of your rebuilt starters, alternators, door motors , etc, are disassembled in a plant in Arizona outside of Phoenix and trucked to Mexico where they are rebuilt. They are placed into various companies boxes and sent to their distribution centers. It's always a thrill to get a competitors box in a direct ship! A-1 Cardone owns the monopoly on rebuilds.
No matter what the package says or states, it's a Dorman part, unless it came from a dealer.
I stopped liking Cragar wheels when they took their plating and casting operations to South America in the late 70's. Cragar now owns the Keystone name as well as some others.
I talked to Rob Mancini at Mancini racing today. He tells me the his conversion package and Proform's use Bosch built distributors. He assures me there will be no issues but the Mancini kits use an ECU manufactured by the original Chrysler vendor and they supply a period correct ballast resistor. I've never had an issue with Mancini's and bought a lot of stuff from them way back in the day.
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Hopefully that period correct ballast resistor is a heavy duty one that can handle the demands of an electronic ignition system.
Thanks for sharing who makes their distributors.
20 or more years ago Cardone had a great reputation. I don't want anything to do with their products or any rebuilt stuff anymore. Thankfully I have a great starter and alternator re builder near me.
Thanks for sharing who makes their distributors.
20 or more years ago Cardone had a great reputation. I don't want anything to do with their products or any rebuilt stuff anymore. Thankfully I have a great starter and alternator re builder near me.
Dsertdog
Old man with an old guitar, and a blue note.
I'm sure it would...I've never had a problem dealing with Mancini. I should have said "period correct looking". I see that rehrenberg uses the same ballast resistor as well.
Cardone has slipped into the low cost high profit bracket as well...with the advent of the "life time warranty" no one has to build it well anymore. They've eliminated their competitors, so they hold all the marbles.
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With a little internet searching, it's pretty easy to get an idea of who owns who. Although, I believe Wix is owned by a German company that also owns several other filter companies, but you make the point. There's also a lot of rebranding that goes on. Having some experiences doing work for automotive suppliers and being involved as a supplier, I can say that most people would be vary surprised at what comes from where. Even more surprising is how many of our goods that we figure as "American" are made by European owned companies.
It has surprised me that the monopoly laws that broke the back of ATT haven't gotten applied.
And rebuilt stuff? Yep, it's pretty much all crap these days.
Then there's a lot more counterfeiting than a lot of folks realize, but that's another story.
That said, having read too many "I bought a Proform ______ and now I'm having problems", and personal experience, I still stand by my recommendation to stay away from their products and stick with the tried and true distributors that were manufactured closer to back when our cars were new. That doesn't mean that everything they make is going to miserably fail, it just means that from my observations, the failure rate out of the box and in use seems to be much higher.
In the beginning, NAPA carried Echlin ignition parts. Echlin had ACCEL as their performance line, when HP stuff started to appear in the later '60s or so.
Sig Erson came to be owned by Super Shops in CA, in the '80s. As did Mallory Ignition. Look at what all Holley has amassed! Mr. Gasket was originally a drag racing-oriented company, then it expanded and got better quality items. I suspect that the racing involvement gave it more instant credibility, even if the gaskets were not originally the quality that was needed for daily-use vehicles.
From what I've read on the oil filter forums, there are only about THREE (at the most) oil filter manufacturers/contractors which make everything. Champion Labs is the main one. That does NOT mean they're all the same as EACH brand has their own specs in filter media, internal construction, type of anti-drainback valve (where applicable), and high-pressure bypass valve type. One thing to understand, there can also be counterfeit oil filters! If the oil filter you're used to purchasing suddenly looks a bit different, then it's possibly counterfeit in a box that basically mimics the original items.
Each of the OEMs had/has their captive suppliers. GM had many brands which Billy Durant assembled to help build his General Motors initially. Albert Champion was AC Spark Plug, after he'd already started Champion spark plugs, for example. DaytonELectricCOmpany became Delco. And things built from there. Chrysler was allied with Prestolite and later Champion spark plugs. Ford used the original AutoLite plugs. AMC sourced from everybody, it seems. LOTS of history! And that's only a part of the whole parts story!
CBODY67
Sig Erson came to be owned by Super Shops in CA, in the '80s. As did Mallory Ignition. Look at what all Holley has amassed! Mr. Gasket was originally a drag racing-oriented company, then it expanded and got better quality items. I suspect that the racing involvement gave it more instant credibility, even if the gaskets were not originally the quality that was needed for daily-use vehicles.
From what I've read on the oil filter forums, there are only about THREE (at the most) oil filter manufacturers/contractors which make everything. Champion Labs is the main one. That does NOT mean they're all the same as EACH brand has their own specs in filter media, internal construction, type of anti-drainback valve (where applicable), and high-pressure bypass valve type. One thing to understand, there can also be counterfeit oil filters! If the oil filter you're used to purchasing suddenly looks a bit different, then it's possibly counterfeit in a box that basically mimics the original items.
Each of the OEMs had/has their captive suppliers. GM had many brands which Billy Durant assembled to help build his General Motors initially. Albert Champion was AC Spark Plug, after he'd already started Champion spark plugs, for example. DaytonELectricCOmpany became Delco. And things built from there. Chrysler was allied with Prestolite and later Champion spark plugs. Ford used the original AutoLite plugs. AMC sourced from everybody, it seems. LOTS of history! And that's only a part of the whole parts story!
CBODY67
Since I rebuild distributors I will put my two cents in. It seems like all the points and condensers now are made by the same company and as far as I am concerned are junk. Bad spring tension and mis alignment on the points. Condensers have a high fail rate when they get hot also. If you can find components made before 1980 use them! Cardone used to be a great rebuilder, but seems since most distributors are going away on the newer cars they build the distributors with a curve that fits in a ten year spread of cars kind of in the middle. Could wor great or be a dog depending what your application is. Caps and rotors have gone downhill also. Standard and echelon are still pretty good, but if possible find NORS if you can. Run away from all the ETRON products! I have been installing a bunch of petronix lately for customers I really like it. I only know of one failure that a friend had but it was dead from the get go, and it was on his shelf for two yeas before the installation. He called them and explained the situation and they replaced it no problem. I like that they stand behind their products FULLY!
Now ECU;s are a hit or miss and I really cant tell you of a brand to get. I do really like the GM moduale and a mopar electronic distributor.
Points systems run fine if they are set up right and should last 10000 miles. People are just afraid of them for some reason.
Now ECU;s are a hit or miss and I really cant tell you of a brand to get. I do really like the GM moduale and a mopar electronic distributor.
Points systems run fine if they are set up right and should last 10000 miles. People are just afraid of them for some reason.
Dsertdog
Old man with an old guitar, and a blue note.
Ok....I think we got it covered there. Your parts are made overseas, and reboxed when they get here. You have one rebuilder.
Parts for older cars are best sourced from the few small companies left who value quality above everything else, including price. Or you buy old NOS and hope years of storage have not already done what normal usage would do.
Parts for older cars are best sourced from the few small companies left who value quality above everything else, including price. Or you buy old NOS and hope years of storage have not already done what normal usage would do.
I have had great experience with them the only thing I have had bad is Vac advances you have to watch them the rubber diaphragms can go bad usually on the 1940-50"s ones. I test them with higher vacuum then the engine will make to make sure they are good. Sucks paying $100+ for a rare one nos and it is bad. Points and condensers are usually good sitting around what wears then are the duty cycles.
Appreciate the initial question and the helpful responses. I have stuck to points for my two fusie c-bodies, but am toying with the idea of switching to Pertronix. Some questions:
1. So far I have not had a problem with points, but I'd like the peace of mind of maximizing the likelihood that the cars will start reliably. From several other threads, I have gotten the impression that the original Pertronix module is more reliable (vs. Ignitor II, or III)?
--> Is that the consensus here?
2. My preference would be to take out the original cap, and to get another (also correct, but new) cap with a Pertronix module under it. That way, less work and can easily be reversed -- while I keep the original parts for anyone interested later, as I like to do.
Comments and suggestions welcome!
1. So far I have not had a problem with points, but I'd like the peace of mind of maximizing the likelihood that the cars will start reliably. From several other threads, I have gotten the impression that the original Pertronix module is more reliable (vs. Ignitor II, or III)?
--> Is that the consensus here?
2. My preference would be to take out the original cap, and to get another (also correct, but new) cap with a Pertronix module under it. That way, less work and can easily be reversed -- while I keep the original parts for anyone interested later, as I like to do.
Comments and suggestions welcome!
Sounds like a plan the only other thing you have to do is jump the ballast resistor to run the petronix. Just find a junk one and take the guts out and solder in a jumper wire looks stock that way and a easy change. You mean change out the original distributors right? You need core distribs let me know have plenty of them, just need the specs.
rapidtrans
Senior Member
I had two Pertronix Units with Flamethrower Coils fail. Went with points and proper coil and have no issues since. I can adjust points. When the electronic unit goes I'm calling AAA to get the car home. The first fail was my fault. I left the key in "on" position after a tune-up. 5 minutes was all it took. Heat seemed to be an issue with both fails as car started fine cold. It started to stumble as car warmed up and eventually died. Leaving me stranded with no spark.
Sometimes I wonder how a 50 year old wiring harness affects the new electronics.
Sometimes I wonder how a 50 year old wiring harness affects the new electronics.
Sounds like the condensers failed when hot. Which Petronix units fail? I have only dealt with the original ones but my friends III failed from the get go.
I don't think so since the GM module also needs the ground. The Petronix is like a mopar pick up that does not need a ground to work. I do know it is not in the instructions just installed one in a RB yesterday.
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