Question about Hughes Whiplash Cam and Springs

badvs3vil

badvs3vil

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Hello everyone,

I wanted to run this by everyone who is smarter then I. My engineer rebuilder who is setting up my heads right now and installing my springs called me. Keep in mind that I got everything from Hughes for this build, the cam, springs and lifters. My engine rebuilder is questioning the spring pressure, he said 155#'s is super high for closed pressure and he thinks that I would have issues with the cam break in with that high of pressure. He said he has never seen closed pressure that high.

So I guess my question is to all of you, I assume I should still have him continue with the install as per the cam card. I also assume the Whiplash cam is made to with stand this kind of pressure?

Let me know your thoughts please.


1646406991982.png
 
badvs3vil said:
Hello everyone,

I wanted to run this by everyone who is smarter then I. My engineer rebuilder who is setting up my heads right now and installing my springs called me. Keep in mind that I got everything from Hughes for this build, the cam, springs and lifters. My engine rebuilder is questioning the spring pressure, he said 155#'s is super high for closed pressure and he thinks that I would have issues with the cam break in with that high of pressure. He said he has never seen closed pressure that high.

So I guess my question is to all of you, I assume I should still have him continue with the install as per the cam card. I also assume the Whiplash cam is made to with stand this kind of pressure?

Let me know your thoughts please.


View attachment 518412
Click to expand...

What does Hughes say ?
 
Ripinator said:
What does Hughes say ?
Click to expand...
They said only one guy there can answer that and he is out till next week. I mean, the cam card says so... So I told my builder to just continue.

I just wanted to see if anyone knows more about these is all.
 
badvs3vil said:
They said only one guy there can answer that and he is out till next week. I mean, the cam card says so... So I told my builder to just continue.

I just wanted to see if anyone knows more about these is all.
Click to expand...

I assume your engine builder has a lot of experience. If it was me, I would want to square what he says with what Hughes says. . .
 
badvs3vil said:
They said only one guy there can answer that and he is out till next week. I mean, the cam card says so... So I told my builder to just continue.

I just wanted to see if anyone knows more about these is all.
Click to expand...

Here is the info regarding my Comp Cam and kit: Xtreme Energy 218/224 Hydraulic Flat Cam for Chrysler 383-440

My cam is not as aggressive as yours, however the valve seat spring seat pressure for my cam is 122#. Is your cam a roller cam?
 
I had the same issue with Hughs cam and springs Had my engine builder get the springs that he recommended. Sold the springs to someone else. All Good
 
High pressure? The amount of lift and the upper-end rpm range of the cam. Plain and simple. I concur that the closed pressure seems a bit high, compared to other cams and such.

Now, that spring pressure spec is for new springs. Wondering if the used spring pressure might be a bit less and that is why the spring pressure starts out that high? So that as the springs "wear-in" the actual pressure will decrease a bit, which agressive lift cam valve springs can tend to do, sometimes?

My late engine builder once had a bracket racer customer who had a good combination of cam/engine, etc. But for the next year, he wanted to go a bit faster, so he found a cam with more duration and more lift than what he had, so he bought the whole cam kit, springs and all. About 1/2 way into the racing season, things started to go a bit awry. Diagnosis? Weak valve springs. Due to the higher lift of the new cam. So he downsized the cam pretty much to what he had before (cam kit, again) and had no further valve spring issues.

IF your engine builder is concerned about cam break-in with the stronger springs, then let him install a set of weaker springs to use to get the cam broken-in and such. Not unlike what Dave has mentioned removing the dampers from the Chrysler HP springs for break-in, then installing the dampers (inside the main spring) after the cam break-in is done and all is well in that area.

In the meantime, DO communicate with the Hughes Cam operative to ensure that all bases are covered.

DO also use plenty of moly assembly lube on the cam lobes and rear surface of the timing chain upper sproket where it contacts the block.

Please keep us posted.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
badvs3vil said:
Hello everyone,

I wanted to run this by everyone who is smarter then I. My engineer rebuilder who is setting up my heads right now and installing my springs called me. Keep in mind that I got everything from Hughes for this build, the cam, springs and lifters. My engine rebuilder is questioning the spring pressure, he said 155#'s is super high for closed pressure and he thinks that I would have issues with the cam break in with that high of pressure. He said he has never seen closed pressure that high.

So I guess my question is to all of you, I assume I should still have him continue with the install as per the cam card. I also assume the Whiplash cam is made to with stand this kind of pressure?

Let me know your thoughts please.


View attachment 518412
Click to expand...
I used the EXACT SAME SPRINGS and my machinist had the exact same concern:
2020-03-02
My springs had an installed height of 47 mm, which is very close to the 1.88 inch spec (about 47.75mm) from Hughes Engine. At 47 mm on a spring scale machine, my machinist, Ben Tillman came up with 155 to 160 pounds of pressure. He thought that was high. Ben Tillman thought it should be around 100-125 for a street car. However I called Dave Hughes, owner of Hughes Engines, and he verified that the spring pressure for Hughes 1106 valve springs should be around 150 pounds. Dave Hughes assured me that with ZDDP (zinc) in his Joe Gibbs break-in oil, there should not be a problem. Hughes Engines has a cam lobe guarantee, if Hughes lifters, valve springs, and Joe Gibbs break-in oil are used, they will replace cam if lobes go flat. Claim only 1 in 400 cams go flat. I followed Dave's recs and the break in for my 440 went fine.
For full machinist details on my 440 build see thread below. Good Luck! Ben
1970 Fury III Convertible 126115 miles: Intro & Planned 440/727 Swap
 
1970FuryConv said:
I used the EXACT SAME SPRINGS and my machinist had the exact same concern:
2020-03-02
My springs had an installed height of 47 mm, which is very close to the 1.88 inch spec (about 47.75mm) from Hughes Engine. At 47 mm on a spring scale machine, my machinist, Ben Tillman came up with 155 to 160 pounds of pressure. He thought that was high. Ben Tillman thought it should be around 100-125 for a street car. However I called Dave Hughes, owner of Hughes Engines, and he verified that the spring pressure for Hughes 1106 valve springs should be around 150 pounds. Dave Hughes assured me that with ZDDP (zinc) in his Joe Gibbs break-in oil, there should not be a problem. Hughes Engines has a cam lobe guarantee, if Hughes lifters, valve springs, and Joe Gibbs break-in oil are used, they will replace cam if lobes go flat. Claim only 1 in 400 cams go flat. I followed Dave's recs and the break in for my 440 went fine.
For full machinist details on my 440 build see thread below. Good Luck! Ben
1970 Fury III Convertible 126115 miles: Intro & Planned 440/727 Swap
Click to expand...

Thank you!!! I did plan on calling Dave next week as well but I think I'm good to go. I will need to get some of that break in oil though. I have some other one currently.
 
badvs3vil said:
Thank you!!! I did plan on calling Dave next week as well but I think I'm good to go. I will need to get some of that break in oil though. I have some other one currently.
Click to expand...
Joe Gibbs break in oil is good stuff. I used 5W-30. After break in, I'm running Joe Gibbs Driven LS30 5W30 synthetic.
 
badvs3vil said:
Thank you!!! I did plan on calling Dave next week as well but I think I'm good to go. I will need to get some of that break in oil though. I have some other one currently.
Click to expand...
BEST to follow THEIR oil recommendations to the letter for the warranty to be in effect -- period. NO "similar" or otherwise! You can order the Joe Gibbs oil from Summit or other similar vendors, probably from JG direct. Perhaps some speed shops in your area have it, too? DO NOT give them any reason to be able to deny warranty coverage -- period!

Just some observations,
CBODY67
 
CBODY67 said:
BEST to follow THEIR oil recommendations to the letter for the warranty to be in effect -- period. NO "similar" or otherwise! You can order the Joe Gibbs oil from Summit or other similar vendors, probably from JG direct. Perhaps some speed shops in your area have it, too? DO NOT give them any reason to be able to deny warranty coverage -- period!

Just some observations,
CBODY67
Click to expand...
100% agree

I'm just going to order it from Hughes since they are not far from me.
 
CBODY67 said:
BEST to follow THEIR oil recommendations to the letter for the warranty to be in effect -- period. NO "similar" or otherwise! You can order the Joe Gibbs oil from Summit or other similar vendors, probably from JG direct. Perhaps some speed shops in your area have it, too? DO NOT give them any reason to be able to deny warranty coverage -- period!

Just some observations,
CBODY67
Click to expand...
1646492601002.png


Done and done.
 
badvs3vil said:
Did you have power brakes?
Click to expand...
Yes, I converted the car from manual to power when I did the disc brake conversion. I went from 4-wheel drum to 1969-1972 front disk brakes. Had to change Steering knuckles to get the caliper mounts.

I was surprised to find that the manual pedal is different from the power brake pedal. Manual is shorter pedal on right. 1970 Fury has mounting bracket that accommodates either.
B6B.jpg

Booster backing plates/firewall stiffening plates are also different. Manual is on right.
B2.jpg

I also was tired of master cylinder exterior rust, so I used a spacer kit from Mancini and installed a later aluminum master cylinder. Booster is direct fit to firewall, no alterations. No interference with 440 HP manifolds.
IMG_20200808_110729.jpg
 
I have always understood that the spring pressure over the nose is the target. To keep the valve under control because of ramp speed, lift, and rpm. I guess the argument could be made that a spring that has high seat pressure can be aggressive on valve returning to the seat.
Your over the nose at full lift with 1.5 rockers is 1.362, which is less than the 335# at 1.33 open height. I'm pretty sure that's about standard for a little over .500" lift
 
70bigblockdodge said:
I have always understood that the spring pressure over the nose is the target. To keep the valve under control because of ramp speed, lift, and rpm. I guess the argument could be made that a spring that has high seat pressure can be aggressive on valve returning to the seat.
Your over the nose at full lift with 1.5 rockers is 1.362, which is less than the 335# at 1.33 open height. I'm pretty sure that's about standard for a little over .500" lift
Click to expand...
Hi Dave
I need to be educated. What is over the nose pressure? How is it calculated to compare with the open height spec on the cam card. Thanks, Ben
400 Hughes Cam Card.png
 
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