Radiator Core Support

Most serpentine belt systems do not have an engine-driven fan, using a "puller" electric fan and such instead, only.

In looking at electric cooling fan items for a while, I have noticed all sort of fan designs. Some with straight, angled blades, some with S-shaped blades, two fan systems (one fan runs continuously and the 2nd fan cuts in later), etc. Some of the aftermarket systems seem like they will move enough air to cool a 2000sq ft house? Lots of choices and price points! But which really works best? More research?

Happy Holidays!
CBODY67

I'll concede that an all electric cooling fan system with a proper shroud for it definitely will cool the entire radiator better than any pusher. I use a pusher only for heavy urban traffic, when/where I'm not too impressed with mech fans even with the proper shroud, hood gasket, et cetera all operating as intended by the original engineers, simply because they didn't account sufficiently for the high temperature weather we now have in record duration and temperature. Mathilda stayed cool nicely with the rigid 6 blade fan Ma Par put on that 383 with the 2524984 radiator, at the cost of running a heavy, rigid 6 blade 18" fan all the time. This, combined with the need to patch that old radiator by next spring drove me to experiment with sundry methods of cooling the engine and freeing it of as much parasitic loading as possible.

My seventh summer running that same engine has seen what I find to be the optimum cooling configuration for this particular car.

Mind you all, I run NO AC, and never will. I use one of Ma Par's old non-AC water pumps with a 4 3/8" 10 vane impeller and it moves the coolant at a rate optimal for a non-AC engine. I use the large pulley provided with that engine, and have another from the '68 engine the same size. I toyed with whether to try a smaller pulley to spin that impeller a bit more, seeing how running the engine up to around 900 rpm would usually cool it down 10-15F at an intersection, but decided to use a pusher electric fan instead, to better cool the system. An under size pulley likely would cause cavitation problems in coolant flow, especially through the heads, the place where one should most dread such, though that can severely damage a block in short order also. So, I stick with the stock design at present, and have a nice, cool system as I've made it.

Now, if some Noble Soul would just donate an air conditioned slab side C-body or 2 for me to cruise Tucson next summer, then I could certainly research cooling an air conditioned version of our Morris Family Ride..... Science is a wonderful thing and all that eh? But we won't hold our collective breath here.

More research ALWAYS!! When the Evil Day comes, I mean to have an all electric drive-train ready for Gertrude.
 
Last edited:
It has been mentioned that Mopar upgraded to a 26" radiator in 66 in AC cars. I know this to be true. I believe the 66 Core support will bolt right in your 65 with no trouble. It will help the issue but whether it will cure it remains to be seen. I too, believe a pair of puller fans is better than a combination of both pusher and puller but you need to make sure the shroud is forcing all the air through the radiator. That is why the factory installed the rubber seal between the core support and hood. You also need to take into account the ability of the water pump to work with the thermostat and not against it. You could be moving the coolant too fast and not giving it a chance to cool in the radiator. You could also be moving the coolant too slow which was the case with my car. You have a serpentine set-up so more than likely have an underdrive pulley on your water pump. I ran into that issue with my 440 Six pack Challenger when I installed the serpentine set-up. I had lots of trouble with overheating when caught in traffic or idling. I never did quite conquer the problem but when I installed a high flow water pump, it helped some. IMO, you have plenty of cooling but lack of flow. As I said, everything has to work together as a team.
I have a 17" puller fan with a shroud so that is as much fan as can be installed on a 22" X 18" radiator. Given the radiator only holds 2 1/2 gallons, I would question if speeding up or slowing down the flow with a different pump would help; hence a larger radiator? When I pull the radiator cap with the engine idling, there appears to be a good flow?
 
I have a 17" puller fan with a shroud so that is as much fan as can be installed on a 22" X 18" radiator. Given the radiator only holds 2 1/2 gallons, I would question if speeding up or slowing down the flow with a different pump would help; hence a larger radiator? When I pull the radiator cap with the engine idling, there appears to be a good flow?

Yeah, 17" is as big as one can do on those 22"x 18" radiators. I've looked at them, or the option of placing two smaller ones on if one can optimize the surface area covered beyond the PI*(8.5")^2 from the 17. Now, do you run that fan full time, or use a thermostat for the duty cycle? I use both for my pusher, trying to minimize run-time, and do fairly well at that. I happily concede a single puller with a shroud IS THE optimal arrangement for a pure electric cooling fan system, and plan to move to some such arrangement, perhaps as early as next spring, IFF I can get the $$ for a NEW copper radiator to replace my venerable Mopar 2524984s. That would be the time for such an investment, as I then (God-willing) won't have to muck about with radiators beyond seasonal flushing and filling.

You CAN get an accurate estimate of the flow rate from your pump(s) if you have the the right equipment for it. I do. I would use a wash machine motor, belted to the pump pulley and bracketed down temporarily, fill the radiator and cooling system with water (having purged it previously) and, first sans thermostat, have a catch bucket to receive the water, run the pump until it drains the system enough to run it dry, stop, and time it. THIS will give you a good baseline for the pump's capacity in situ on your engine. You will need to know in advance the angular speed of the AC motor you use to drive the pump for such an experiment, usually something like 1500, 1800, 3000 or 3600 rpm, given their design, the diameters of the drive pulley on your test motor, and of course the pump/fan pulley.

You can then repeat your measurements with the thermostat in place, and use both colt and hot water to fill the system to see how well the thermostat regulates flow rate.

While such an experiment would likely take a good afternoon or weekend, the data might be well worthwhile.

A 26" wide radiator certainly provides greater surface area to cool those tubes, cheaply, which is exactly why Ma Par resorted to it! Despite all the grunting about how MoPar made everything perfect the first time, little details such as making the 26" x 18" radiator for the 1966 line demonstrates the fallacy in such sentiment. I love Old Mopar for their INNOVATIONS and the relative ease of working on them, and yes, CHANGING THEM when necessary.

Flow TOO FAST, and fluid media develop void spaces. Thus cavitation, an engine DESTROYING PHENOMENON! With such as the ABSOLUTE upper bound on flow rates, we now can consider heat transfer, proper thermodynamic issues. Some of this involves what materials the radiator and even the cylinder heads are made of. If I had an engine with modern aluminum heads, I probably would prefer an aluminum radiator to keep things as consistent. Thus, heat transfer times would be closer, so one could aim for closer flow rates. Conversely, with iron heads, a copper radiator will have far closer thermodynamic constants. This stuff MATTERS, to mechanical, material science and thermodynamic engineers, which, alas, I'm NOT. (I'm just an EE.)

The lower bound for desirable flow rates will be when heat STOPS MOVING. How long does it take a given volume of coolant to change temperature? One gram of water requires 4.186 joules to rise one degree Celsius. One Watt is One joule/second. So, to heat one gram of (liquid) water one degree Celsius, we need 4.186 Watts! Put another way, One gram of water will REMOVE 4.186 Watts of waste heat from a given system. Now, water has a mass density of 1 g/ml, or 1 oz weight/1 oz volume! "A pint's a pound the world around!" as it was once said. Handy, huh?

Now, 1 hp = 745.7 W. So, you can get a handle on how much thermal energy flows from you engine. Then, set an upper bound for desirable temperature. Start there, figure out what temperature change you desire from your cooling system, and estimate the temperature of the radiator environment. That will be your "heat sink." Proceed from the source, your engine, to the sink, with the power your engine produces, and figure out how much coolant it will take to remove the heat at the temperature in your radiator! Then, you can estimate the optimum FLOW RATE!!!

I can do all this good **** for you, but since this is hardly new stuff, you can likely find calculators online. All I have done is explained a wee bit how to think about the problem.

Also, allow for the fact that so long as there is no cavitation, you might get away with treating your coolant as a static substance, simply absorbing heat and magically whisking away to the radiator.

BUT, since you raised the VERY EXCELLENT QUESTION of coolant flow rate, I wanted to spell out a few things to clarify your thinking. I know from my own experience that the older MoPar non-AC pumps with their larger impellers do better with my 1965 383, which I removed the dealer AC from the first day I got it home. I ran a Gates pump from Rock Auto the first year, which did alright, but went to the more proper pump I now use 3 or 4 summers ago, and saw better results. You will have to try what suits your system best. Having now 3 little DNA copies to feed and clothe around here gets in the way of my purer experimental inquiries, alas and woe, though I might yet train them for the next decade......

Stay COOL in the meantime.
 
Cooling nightmare; 1965 Plymouth SF 383! Purchased a $875 Griffin Aluminium Radiator, BIG MISTAKE - STAY AWAY FROM GRIFFIN, installed A/C, installed serpentine belt, installed push and pull fans for a combined 3,000 CFM and installed shroud. Radiator is is OEM specifications with dimensions of 22" x 18". Complete engine overhaul and has +-600 miles.

Location; Phoenix, AZ.

Problem; Engine runs hot, any ambient temperature 75 degrees or above just changes how quick it gets hot at lights and driving.

Question; I converted the car to have A/C. I am unable to determine if a Radiator Core Support was available in a 26" when the car had factory air or just the standard 22." With the current 22 X 18" there is surface area of 396 sq. inches vs. 468 sq. inches with the 26 X 18 or an increase of 18%. Therefore, was there a 26" Radiator Core Support available in and for a 1965 Fury OR will a 26" Core Support fit from another year, i.e. 1966 fit. I am looking at this option vs. pulling out the serpentine belt and trying to install standard belts, changing water pumps, changing pulleys on the A/C compressor, if even possible, as well as the power steering pump, etc. and reinstalling a fan blade, new shroud and other. I estimate that what ever I do, am looking at $3,000 - $5,000. If I knew than what I know now!!!!!!!
Still looking for solutions. Weather in Arizona over the winter reduced the heat problem and gave me the opportunity to explore through conversations but with summer coming……..same issue and time to address. Given that and one easy upturn would be to replace the 22” radiator with a 26” without changing 1965 22” radiator core support to a 1966 26” radiator core support. I have talked to several individuals who did this successfully but they are running mechanical fans with shrouds while I am running the push pull set up. Any thoughts before I continue as to just changing radiators or changing both the support and radiator. In any event, STAY AWAY FROM GRIFFIN RADIATOR! Open to suggestions there also. Thanks.
 
Still looking for solutions. Weather in Arizona over the winter reduced the heat problem and gave me the opportunity to explore through conversations but with summer coming……..same issue and time to address. Given that and one easy upturn would be to replace the 22” radiator with a 26” without changing 1965 22” radiator core support to a 1966 26” radiator core support. I have talked to several individuals who did this successfully but they are running mechanical fans with shrouds while I am running the push pull set up. Any thoughts before I continue as to just changing radiators or changing both the support and radiator. In any event, STAY AWAY FROM GRIFFIN RADIATOR! Open to suggestions there also. Thanks.

Check THIS one out:

OER MB2384A https://www.speedwaymotors.com/OER-...B-Body-426ci-Hemi-V8-Rep-Radiator,133767.html


I'm strongly tempted to snap this one up. I only hesitate because for now, my antique radiator works beautifully, and isn't leaking. I would rather have one of the pair I have re-cored with a 4 row, 9/16" centered tube space core in my old frame and tanks, as this would best accommodate my old shroud. If my current antique pops leaks before I can find a decent radiator shop, then I WILL buy this Hemi radiator from JEGS, Speedway or such....

If your pinched for $, try this guy: 22" Mopar BIG BLOCK HD Aluminum Radiator

His Al radiator worked very well for us here, until destroyed by a fraudulent c**t a couple years ago....

I'll keep Gertrude chill this summer, one way or another, be sure of it.
 
Check THIS one out:

OER MB2384A https://www.speedwaymotors.com/OER-...B-Body-426ci-Hemi-V8-Rep-Radiator,133767.html


I'm strongly tempted to snap this one up. I only hesitate because for now, my antique radiator works beautifully, and isn't leaking. I would rather have one of the pair I have re-cored with a 4 row, 9/16" centered tube space core in my old frame and tanks, as this would best accommodate my old shroud. If my current antique pops leaks before I can find a decent radiator shop, then I WILL buy this Hemi radiator from JEGS, Speedway or such....

If your pinched for $, try this guy: 22" Mopar BIG BLOCK HD Aluminum Radiator

His Al radiator worked very well for us here, until destroyed by a fraudulent c**t a couple years ago....

I'll keep Gertrude chill this summer, one way or another, be sure of it.
Need a 26". Have two 22" but thanks.
 
If it were me, I would ditch the pusher fan in favor of a couple of puller fans with a shroud. Or a factory type thermo fan with shroud. You mentioned you have a serpentine belt set-up. I had one of them from March Performance on my 70 440 Six pack Challenger that was an under drive set up. That means the flywheel pulley is smaller in diameter than the factory set up. It ran the belt system too slow and in turn the water pump kept the coolant in the engine too long. Could that be your issue? I upgraded to a Flo Kooler water pump that helped my set up but never really cured it. The car never overheated on the road but at idle it started creeping up almost immediately.
 
Need a 26". Have two 22" but thanks.
What do you have in 22" rads now? Curious and maybe interested.... I like the extra space the smaller radiator gives me up front, among other factors. Mind you, Gertrude stays nice and cool with my system. Cooling the tranny fluid separately BEFORE running it into the cooler at the bottom of the radiator helps enormously.
 
If it were me, I would ditch the pusher fan in favor of a couple of puller fans with a shroud. Or a factory type thermo fan with shroud. You mentioned you have a serpentine belt set-up. I had one of them from March Performance on my 70 440 Six pack Challenger that was an under drive set up. That means the flywheel pulley is smaller in diameter than the factory set up. It ran the belt system too slow and in turn the water pump kept the coolant in the engine too long. Could that be your issue? I upgraded to a Flo Kooler water pump that helped my set up but never really cured it. The car never overheated on the road but at idle it started creeping up almost immediately.
The puller fan, for which I have installed a shroud, pulls more air than would two puller fans; square inches and CFM. The problem is the the volume of the radiator and with a 22" radiator, it can't cool down once the engine or radiator are hot. To me, it would seem that when both the radiator and engine temperature is hot, moving the same volume at a higher or lower rate wouldn't wouldn't accomplish much. When I go to car shows and look at what people are doing with small radiators and big engines, it confuses me as to why I have the problem I do but I am not alone when dealing with a Mopar. When the ambient temperature is 90 or less, I run 185 degrees or less but when it gets to 100+, I start to run 200-230! I am running the same setup on my 66 GTO with basically the the same capacity, actually a less, (378 sq. in core vs. 396) radiator and no problem! Head scratcher! Thanks for the ideas.
 
The puller fan, for which I have installed a shroud, pulls more air than would two puller fans; square inches and CFM. The problem is the the volume of the radiator and with a 22" radiator, it can't cool down once the engine or radiator are hot.

I like SOME coolant volume in a radiator, but suggest the most crucial variable on a radiator is the radiant surface area. Now, if you refer to the AIR VOLUME at a given instant into which that radiant surface radiates, then yes, a greater volume of air (or any other fluid, liquid or gaseous) in contact with the radiant surface provides more fluid to cool that surface. Even in this context, a four row copper radiator or an aluminum radiator with 2 rows of large (1+ inch depth w.r.t. the direction of airflow) can provide both greater volume and radiant surface area than a larger frontal surface area with less rows of the same tubing. That's why I'm looking at a 4 row 22" radiator to replace one of my very aged 2524984s. IFF I can find a COMPETENT radiator repair/fabrication shop in Toostoned. I will likely re-core, savng the old tanks and frame for the shroud and originality of the car....

This is the volume which "Cold Case" radiators offer BTW, though their aluminum leaves much to be desired, as I found.

Regardless of the frontal surface area, your next variable will be the volumetric air flux through the radiator. Here, a larger frontal surface area allows more passive air flow; to wit, highway breeze, but when stalled in traffic one still needs assisted air flux. This often gets advertised as "CFM" or for all I know, "CFF" (Cubic Furlongs/Fortnight). Such flux is only meaningful with fixed rate fans as a rule, though if one knows the pitch, number of blades and their length, one might calculate volumetric flux for whatever angular velocity the engine instantaneously turns. The former works when estimating cooling rates for electric fans, the latter, for mechanical or more rarely, variable rate electric fans. The air flux in turn then helps predict how much heat the radiator radiates, given that coolant properties, radiator composition et al be known.

To me, it would seem that when both the radiator and engine temperature is hot, moving the same volume at a higher or lower rate wouldn't wouldn't accomplish much.

If so, that engine has a severe problem. I had one a couple summers ago, changed engines, and eliminated THAT thermal problem!

When I go to car shows and look at what people are doing with small radiators and big engines, it confuses me as to why I have the problem I do but I am not alone when dealing with a Mopar.

Truer words have not been typed on this Forum!

When the ambient temperature is 90 or less, I run 185 degrees or less but when it gets to 100+, I start to run 200-230!

Attend to your thermostat, water pump, coolant solution and such. I've found the high flow thermostats HELP ENORMOUSLY in AZ summer urban traffic! Spend the $30, and save your kilodollar engine man.

I'm very curious about your situation. ONE THING which might explain your problem though could be AIR CONDITIONING! I've NEVER used it since 1979, and won't. An AC certainly can overload an automotive cooling system, unless AMPLE provision for the maximum heat it can dump is made. I'd rather do without myself.....

I am running the same setup on my 66 GTO with basically the the same capacity, actually a less, (378 sq. in core vs. 396) radiator and no problem! Head scratcher! Thanks for the ideas.

How identical is the cooling setup on your GTO? How much does the GTO weigh? Vehicle weight will contribute to engine heat, be sure of that.

Best Wishes!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top