Serious issue?

[celticwarlock]

I didn't know where else to post this, so I'm putting it here.

I have a '00 Dodge 3500 van that I'm having a potentially serious issue with. I was coming down a hill today and had to hit the brakes firmly. When I did, I heard a noise like something in the steering/suspension shifted, and the caster went out of adjustment on the left front wheel.

At first, I thought the upper control arm shifted because one of the bolts was a bit loose, so I had it aligned. The tech said he had to max out the (+) caster adjustment to get it in spec. All was well until later in the day, when the same thing happened. The front end is in otherwise good shape....there is no play, it has quality parts that aren't too old (I rebuilt the entire system a couple of years ago), nothing is loose or worn, nothing is broken or bent, all the frame welds are fine, etc. I cannot find ANYTHING wrong with it (visually). Even the strut rods appear fine. The toe and camber setting look okay when the wheel is straight and I look at the relationship each tire has with each other, and with the street (I know it only takes a subtle adjustment issue to throw things out of whack, but for what it's worth, nothing is obviously amiss).

I have braked firmly a few times since to see if it worsens, and it hasn't, nor has there been any more noise. The front end feels as tight as it should despite this problem, but it is pulling very hard to the left.

What the hell is going on with this van? I need this thing to make a living, so this is really important. Any help anyone here can offer would be greatly appreciated. I have done LOTS of front end work on MANY different makes and models over the years, and this has me totally stumped.

 

[BeatersRus]

check your brake calipers for a sticking unit,
and the wheel bearings too.
i would have said you tore one of the a arm mounts,
but you said you checked those as well.

 

[cantflip]

I didn't know where else to post this, so I'm putting it here.

I have a '00 Dodge 3500 van that I'm having a potentially serious issue with. I was coming down a hill today and had to hit the brakes firmly. When I did, I heard a noise like something in the steering/suspension shifted, and the caster went out of adjustment on the left front wheel.

At first, I thought the upper control arm shifted because one of the bolts was a bit loose, so I had it aligned. The tech said he had to max out the (+) caster adjustment to get it in spec. All was well until later in the day, when the same thing happened. The front end is in otherwise good shape....there is no play, it has quality parts that aren't too old (I rebuilt the entire system a couple of years ago), nothing is loose or worn, nothing is broken or bent, all the frame welds are fine, etc. I cannot find ANYTHING wrong with it (visually). Even the strut rods appear fine. The toe and camber setting look okay when the wheel is straight and I look at the relationship each tire has with each other, and with the street (I know it only takes a subtle adjustment issue to throw things out of whack, but for what it's worth, nothing is obviously amiss).

I have braked firmly a few times since to see if it worsens, and it hasn't, nor has there been any more noise. The front end feels as tight as it should despite this problem, but it is pulling very hard to the left.

What the hell is going on with this van? I need this thing to make a living, so this is really important. Any help anyone here can offer would be greatly appreciated. I have done LOTS of front end work on MANY different makes and models over the years, and this has me totally stumped.

Either take it back to your alignment wrench turner... He should want to find and correct this problem.

 

[traintech55]

Look at your mounting points for the lower control arms. If one of the bolts was slightly loose it would egg shape the hole. If they are good check the bushings on the lower arms. I had the same problem on an 87 ram 150 van.

 

[celticwarlock]

All bushings are secure and nothing is being rounded out. I checked them very carefully, as I suspected this might be an issue.

This is totally bizarre are it's kind of freaking me out. There is very obviously a problem with a very noticeable effect, but it is not revealing itself visually.

 

[celticwarlock]

Either take it back to your alignment wrench turner... He should want to find and correct this problem.

As tough as this might be to believe, I don't think he is the issue. What he did actually corrected it temporarily.

 

[traintech55]

All bushings are secure and nothing is being rounded out. I checked them very carefully, as I suspected this might be an issue.

This is totally bizarre are it's kind of freaking me out. There is very obviously a problem with a very noticeable effect, but it is not revealing itself visually.

The next thing I would do then is raise the front end and support it on stands. Then take a long pry bar and try to move each joint. Look at your idler arm, (especially where it mounts to the frame) as any change could cause this problem. If all in the front end checks good, look at the forward mounting point for the rear spring. Chrysler's oval design tends to break and let the spring move forward. It is very hard to find unless you have someone drive behind you and see it Dog Tracking.

 

[twostick]

So what happens when you brake hard in reverse?

I would question the competence of any tech who has to make a major adjustment to get something back in spec that was previously good, and then lets it out the door without finding out what broke.

You said you felt something shift? That is when whatever part is causing your problem, broke.

Kevin.

 

[twostick]

The next thing I would do then is raise the front end and support it on stands. Then take a long pry bar and try to move each joint. Look at your idler arm, (especially where it mounts to the frame) as any change could cause this problem. If all in the front end checks good, look at the forward mounting point for the rear spring. Chrysler's oval design tends to break and let the spring move forward. It is very hard to find unless you have someone drive behind you and see it Dog Tracking.

All good things to check but he said it was the caster that went out on the left wheel.

Kevin.

 

[detmatt]

I have an '01 3500 van and the front end makes some crazy loud noises but always tracks straight afterwards so I try not to worry about it. I'm more worried about my worn out pinion bearings at the moment....
You say that you have no rust issues up front but that was where my head went first before you said that. Frame rot up around the steering box meant the early demise of a lot of these vans.

 

[traintech55]

I have an '01 3500 van and the front end makes some crazy loud noises but always tracks straight afterwards so I try not to worry about it. I'm more worried about my worn out pinion bearings at the moment....
You say that you have no rust issues up front but that was where my head went first before you said that. Frame rot up around the steering box meant the early demise of a lot of these vans.

That and flexing the frame when you turned the wheels to full lock.

 

[traintech55]

All good things to check but he said it was the caster that went out on the left wheel.

Kevin.

Then it has to be a bad bushing or ball joint on that side.

 

[celticwarlock]

So what happens when you brake hard in reverse?

I would question the competence of any tech who has to make a major adjustment to get something back in spec that was previously good, and then lets it out the door without finding out what broke.

You said you felt something shift? That is when whatever part is causing your problem, broke.

Kevin.

Indeed. Although, nothing actually broke. I was ALL OVER every joint, and could find nothing.

 

[celticwarlock]

The next thing I would do then is raise the front end and support it on stands. Then take a long pry bar and try to move each joint. Look at your idler arm, (especially where it mounts to the frame) as any change could cause this problem. If all in the front end checks good, look at the forward mounting point for the rear spring. Chrysler's oval design tends to break and let the spring move forward. It is very hard to find unless you have someone drive behind you and see it Dog Tracking.

Believe it or not, I checked ALL of this already. Nothing is out of order.

 

[celticwarlock]

I have an '01 3500 van and the front end makes some crazy loud noises but always tracks straight afterwards so I try not to worry about it. I'm more worried about my worn out pinion bearings at the moment....
You say that you have no rust issues up front but that was where my head went first before you said that. Frame rot up around the steering box meant the early demise of a lot of these vans.

My other van had rust there which I had repaired by a traveling welder. He did a kick-*** job on it. This van has no such problem.

 

[celticwarlock]

I think I may have found out what happened. When this happened yesterday, and I had it realigned, I was told by the tech that he maxed out the caster adjustment on the side where I felt the shift. Even though I was working on the theory that this was completely false, I didn't feel like getting into an exchange with somebody who didn't feel like doing the work, so I simply took my van and left (fortunately, I didn't have to pay a penny for any of this, because I had already purchased a lifetime alignment for this van last year). The van tracked straight and did not pull in either direction after the alignment was done, so I was prepared to live with it. A couple of hours after I left that shop, it happened again. I decided to limp the van home, and deal with it myself in the morning before going to work.

This morning, I loosened the two bolts holding the upper control arm to the frame and resituated it, hoping to get it close enough for another shop to dial it in from there. The tech did indeed max out the caster using the rear bolt, but NOT while also using the front one. After taking it apart searching for hidden issues, I noticed that the threaded pieces which the control arm bolts are torqued into had some surface distortion on the frame side, so I flipped them over when I reinstalled them. At this point, I really begin to believe that both the initial incident and the subsequent incident were both due to the fact that the control arm shifted when the brakes were applied firmly. After everything was put back together, it was like none of this ever happened. It was tracking straight, and again, it was not pulling in either direction. Also, there was ample adjustment left for the camber AND caster.

It turns out that after I arrived at the second shop today, and they put it on the alignment rack, I absolutely nailed the caster adjustment by eye. I didn't even think that was possible. It was literally right in the middle of the range. In fact, it was incredibly close to having every single adjustment in the green. Apparently, the first guy who tried to align the van was somehow unfamiliar with how these front ends need to be adjusted. What a disappointment. I was further dismayed when the next guy at the second shop told me that the camber adjustment could not be altered.....which I know to be false. It's only .8 degrees out, which I can live with, I guess. I'd try to nail that one by eye too, but I don't want to upset the caster again (they adjust at the same location on these vans, for those who don't know). They did, however, adjust the toe precisely. It's just as well, because it might be all I can trust them with.

So far, no shifts or weird noises. I think the distorted surfaces of the anchor pieces left too little surface area to prevent the upper control arm from shifting, even with the bolts torqued. It's a flimsy theory, but it's all I can come up with.

 

[BeatersRus]

we were all right then,sorta..it Was the control arm lol.
good to hear you got it fixed but hey...
all those alignment shops and nobody knows how to align front ends??!!!!
thats kinda disturbing in itself!

 

[celticwarlock]

we were all right then,sorta..it Was the control arm lol.
good to hear you got it fixed but hey...
all those alignment shops and nobody knows how to align front ends??!!!!
thats kinda disturbing in itself!

Seriously. They're tough vehicles to align correctly, and the vague steering doesn't help, but it can be done. It's tough to find competent alignment techs, and that compunds the problem.

 

[celticwarlock]

Thanks to all for such sound advice, as usual.

 

[traintech55]

Seriously. They're tough vehicles to align correctly, and the vague steering doesn't help, but it can be done. It's tough to find competent alignment techs, and that compunds the problem.

All these guys know how to do as put on the scopes and move things around until the machine says it is correct. Give me a front end guy from the 70's any day.