BAD69FURY
Active Member
I had this problem in my Newport after replacing the steering gear. A slight adjustment of the steering gear valve body corrected the problem. Here’s a great video showing correctly how to fix it.
watch video from 7:28 onward
Steering wheel wants to turn right while idling, steering gear adustment or front-end alignment?
- Thread starter MoPar~Man
- Start date
watch video from 7:28 onward
ynst
Member
If the steering wheel twitches one way or the other when you start the engine, the valve body needs adjustment. The FSM, in the steering box rebuild section, tells you which way to tap the valve body to correct the problem.
It's been a while since I had to adjust one of these valves (probably ten years or more) but I distinctly remember the FSM going into great detail about the torque settings for the valve body bolts. One setting will allow you to slide the valve body but not induce any leakage while testing the adjustment and the other is the final torque to affix it permanently.
I never had a problem with one leaking while adjusting it because I always looked up the torque settings beforehand and followed the procedure.
EDIT: I think Chilton and Motor manuals also cover the adjustment procedure.
It's been a while since I had to adjust one of these valves (probably ten years or more) but I distinctly remember the FSM going into great detail about the torque settings for the valve body bolts. One setting will allow you to slide the valve body but not induce any leakage while testing the adjustment and the other is the final torque to affix it permanently.
I never had a problem with one leaking while adjusting it because I always looked up the torque settings beforehand and followed the procedure.
EDIT: I think Chilton and Motor manuals also cover the adjustment procedure.
You need to center the valve on the steering gear. The manual describes how you loosen bolts then re tighten to a lighter torque. Then with the front end off of the ground, you tap lightly on the centering valve. Adjust by tapping it up or down until the steering wheel does not go it's own way. Turn the wheel both ways to make sure one way does not move by itself. It's well explain in the fsm under steering gear.
I think I've solved this problem. I removed the gear box and took it apart, following the same steps I took when I changed the worm-shaft seal. I thought I might have mixed up the placement of a few parts:
This is the right-turn reaction ring and couple of placement / spacer rings. This is how I had it put together (which was wrong):
This is how it's supposed to look:
I used a short piece of pipe (which fit real good on the worm shaft) and some shim washers to align the unit to what I think is the correct angle:
With the wheels off the ground and engine running, and some very small adjustments to the valve body, I can get it so that the self-steering in either direction has stopped. I can't quite seem to make it not free-wheel a little bit in one direction or another if I give the wheel a bit of a spin and let go.
I wonder why they didn't load the valve-body piston with opposing springs to give it some neutral return force. I think that would have gone a long way to reducing the wheel rotational inertia.
This is the right-turn reaction ring and couple of placement / spacer rings. This is how I had it put together (which was wrong):
This is how it's supposed to look:
I used a short piece of pipe (which fit real good on the worm shaft) and some shim washers to align the unit to what I think is the correct angle:
With the wheels off the ground and engine running, and some very small adjustments to the valve body, I can get it so that the self-steering in either direction has stopped. I can't quite seem to make it not free-wheel a little bit in one direction or another if I give the wheel a bit of a spin and let go.
I wonder why they didn't load the valve-body piston with opposing springs to give it some neutral return force. I think that would have gone a long way to reducing the wheel rotational inertia.
3175375
Senior Member
Good work on correcting the assembly error.
Maybe you still have something in incorrectly?
I have never disassembled a steering box, but did screw up a valve body reassembly on Elwood, my 68 Plymouth Fury II 4 door sedan with a 904. I re-read the service manual and figured it out.
I would encourage you to review, carefully consider reassembly and ask questions on this forum. Do not hesitate to include pictures as you have done.
The valve body is pretty simple. I didn't touch it the first time, but this time I did remove it:
I took note of which way that slot in the pin was oriented. Those are the original seals, they looked fine, a bit flattened. There's almost no parts in the valve body itself except for some seals and the piston. I took the end-piece off so I could slide the piston out and look at it, I didn't take the end piece itself apart but I did change the seals. The piston slides very easily in the bore but I could detect no play. I cleaned these valve body surfaces and changed the seals. I had no leaks from here before I did all that, I'm hoping it stays that way with the new seals.
Here's the pin and the part they call the "spacer":
I took those out so I could see the left-turn reaction ring under the spacer and see how those parts went together. That's how I figured I put the right-turn parts in incorrectly.
I have several of the steering-gear rebuild kits (Sunsong I think) that rockauto sells, all in all a large variety of parts. Beyond changing the seals that prevent external fluid leaks, I'm wonding how replacing some of the internal seals affects (or corrects) steering gear operation and steering feel. Changing those seals requires more disassembly / removal of the entire power piston assembly which I did not do.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
Congratulations on finding the assembly mistake.
The freewheeling "in both directions" when there is no resistance with the wheels off the ground is expected. That's what the reaction spring setup is all about. To stabilize the steering when the car encounters bumps, wind and crown so the car don't jump all over the place. Bouncing back and forth from valve port to valve port.
Return to center is all in the alignment.
Change the reaction springs to change the feel. Meaning a little effort needed to turn the wheel all the way to a lot of effort needed.
The freewheeling "in both directions" when there is no resistance with the wheels off the ground is expected. That's what the reaction spring setup is all about. To stabilize the steering when the car encounters bumps, wind and crown so the car don't jump all over the place. Bouncing back and forth from valve port to valve port.
Return to center is all in the alignment.
Change the reaction springs to change the feel. Meaning a little effort needed to turn the wheel all the way to a lot of effort needed.
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marty koirtyohann
Well-Known Member
Love all this input. Gonna rebuild mine this winter and never done one.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
MoPar~Man has it figured out.
The devil is defiantly in the details. Get the factory service manual. There are some very important details. Like adjusting the line weight tension with a string and weight scale and staking that nut in the picture of post #24.If the parts aren't worn and the FSM is followed meticulously the results can be shockingly good.
3175375
Senior Member
What do you mean by “Change the reaction springs to change the feel. Meaning a little effort needed to turn the wheel all the way to a lot of effort needed.”
Can you elaborate?
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
The reaction spring assembly controls the effort needed to activate the power steering.
One set of springs will make it turn with very little effort at the steering wheel. Another set will make it require more effort.
If you have a set for a firm feeling, you will have to apply more torque to the steering wheel to get the car to turn. The added resistance in your hands on the wheel tells you that you are attempting to turn the car, and the car is "about" to turn. Then you even apply more torque to the steering wheel, and it eventually turns the car.
One set of springs will make it turn with very little effort at the steering wheel. Another set will make it require more effort.
If you have a set for a firm feeling, you will have to apply more torque to the steering wheel to get the car to turn. The added resistance in your hands on the wheel tells you that you are attempting to turn the car, and the car is "about" to turn. Then you even apply more torque to the steering wheel, and it eventually turns the car.
3175375
Senior Member
the steering wheel in both of my C bodies is way too loosey goosey for me. It is extremely easy to steer. I’m used to firmer steering.
Are you saying that I can replace the springs to achieve a firmer (more effort than using my pinky) steering feel?
If this is true, where do I get or how do I adjust the springs?
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
I don't know who sells the spring set you seek.
I get my springs out of factory steering boxs.
Is it possible that you have loose steering parts, or a worn box, or a miss assembled box or a box with internal miss adjustments?
The worm and sector and recirculating balls, and shaft bearings should have no play in them when adjusted right. There are generally three adjustments for that, one inside and two outside.
Then the reaction power assist spring setup is a whole different thing.
Even after this latest round of R&R with the steering gear, still no joy in mudville.
With the wheels off the ground, I can get it so the wheels don't auto-steer to the left or right, but they do still seem touchy and will have some ineria to turn to the left or right if I give the wheel a nudge or bump in that direction.
With the wheels on the ground there became a tendency to auto-turn to I think it was the right so I went back to give the valve body a nudge and was able to remedy that.
Taking the car for a drive I was still seeing this tendency where the wheels wanted to turn to the left or right more than point straight ahead. Up until this point I had measured the caster of the driver-side tire, which I figure was 1.8 degrees.
Today I measured the pass. side and it looks to be zero (even with the bolts set exactly as they are on the driver side) so I swung the pass. side upper arm as far backwards it can go, measure it now to be 2.8 degrees. Took it back on the road, I'm still not seeing any tendency for self-centering. If the wheels are turned left or right they basically want to turn even more to the left or right instead of trying to straighten out. Is this normal?
I'm also trying to understand if the fenders should rise and fall depending on where exactly their tire is pointed, and if this is diagnostic for correct camber/caster setting.
They say that the steering gear plays no role in assisting the wheels to self-center, but can the gear play a role to thwart the wheels from self centering?
How does one know if internal gearbox o-rings need to be replaced to correct for some malfunctioning situation?
The last time I drove this car without giving the steering a second thought was when I drove it maybe the 3 miles from the storage locker to my driveway back in June, and from that point everything was taken apart, frame, etc, and the new stub was mounted to the car. The replacement stub came intact with it's upper and lower arms and torsion bars and I used them all in the rebuild. I took my original steering gear /center link / idler arm, all still connected to each other, and moved them from the old stub to the new stub. Using my original knuckles also.
I'm dealing with a lot of variables here. New stub, complete r&r on all the suspension parts, maybe the knuckles are left & right and I mixed them up (I don't know if I got an answer about that).
With the wheels off the ground, I can get it so the wheels don't auto-steer to the left or right, but they do still seem touchy and will have some ineria to turn to the left or right if I give the wheel a nudge or bump in that direction.
With the wheels on the ground there became a tendency to auto-turn to I think it was the right so I went back to give the valve body a nudge and was able to remedy that.
Taking the car for a drive I was still seeing this tendency where the wheels wanted to turn to the left or right more than point straight ahead. Up until this point I had measured the caster of the driver-side tire, which I figure was 1.8 degrees.
Today I measured the pass. side and it looks to be zero (even with the bolts set exactly as they are on the driver side) so I swung the pass. side upper arm as far backwards it can go, measure it now to be 2.8 degrees. Took it back on the road, I'm still not seeing any tendency for self-centering. If the wheels are turned left or right they basically want to turn even more to the left or right instead of trying to straighten out. Is this normal?
I'm also trying to understand if the fenders should rise and fall depending on where exactly their tire is pointed, and if this is diagnostic for correct camber/caster setting.
They say that the steering gear plays no role in assisting the wheels to self-center, but can the gear play a role to thwart the wheels from self centering?
How does one know if internal gearbox o-rings need to be replaced to correct for some malfunctioning situation?
The last time I drove this car without giving the steering a second thought was when I drove it maybe the 3 miles from the storage locker to my driveway back in June, and from that point everything was taken apart, frame, etc, and the new stub was mounted to the car. The replacement stub came intact with it's upper and lower arms and torsion bars and I used them all in the rebuild. I took my original steering gear /center link / idler arm, all still connected to each other, and moved them from the old stub to the new stub. Using my original knuckles also.
I'm dealing with a lot of variables here. New stub, complete r&r on all the suspension parts, maybe the knuckles are left & right and I mixed them up (I don't know if I got an answer about that).
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
"If the wheels are turned left or right, they basically want to turn even more to the left or right instead of trying to straighten out. Is this normal?"
-Not normal.
"I'm also trying to understand if the fenders should rise and fall depending on where exactly their tire is pointed, and if this is diagnostic for correct camber/caster setting."
-They will rise when turned from straight ahead position if caster is at ZERO. If positive, the "outside" fender will fall a "tiny" amount before it rises then the wheel is turned more. The inside will rise from jump.
-Not usable for caster setting.
"They say that the steering gear plays no role in assisting the wheels to self-center, but can the gear play a role to thwart the wheels from self-centering?"
-Yes, it can mess everything up if it's defective in anyway shape or form.
Chrysler installed a NEW warranty power steering gear box on Dads 71 Imperial in late 71 because the original had a massive failure. The replacement never behaved right. It didn't return from right turn.
The dealer unit man (the guy that knows all about everything?) had it apart 3 times. Another NEW box from Chrysler installed by the dealer fixed the problem.
It appears that the only two likely variables from when it was working right on the 3-mile drive home from storage are the alignment or the steering box.
Your alignment is suspect, meaning it ain't perfect. But I don't think that is the cause of the symptoms you describe. I say that because I've not seen alignment be the cause of your symptoms and can't see how it would because I don't think you can get enough positive caster (like an arbitrary #of 10 degrees?) to overcome the kingpin inclination self-centering at slow speed.
Positive caster "allows" the car to run straight "or" follow any external forces (wind, crown) applied to the car, it doesn't "make" it run straight.
The behavior you describe indicates that the steering box is still misbehaving. I think.
But, I just did an alignment on an 87 5TH AVE that was setup 3.5 "positive" caster and 3.5 "negative" caster, opposing sides. Never seen that before. One-degree positive camber, 1/2 positive toe.
The car presented as nervous at 30/70 mph with self-centering messed up "only" at the very center of the range. Like within 10 degrees to either side of dead center of the steering wheel. Apparently, the last person to line it up got confused on their iny/outy wheel turning for the caster check.
In then out on one side, out then in on the other. Otherwise, perfect alignment.
So, you're leaning more than you ever wanted to about Chrysler steering.
And Big_John is chasing a drive line thing that he expects to finally get sorted out some time NEXT year.
-Not normal.
"I'm also trying to understand if the fenders should rise and fall depending on where exactly their tire is pointed, and if this is diagnostic for correct camber/caster setting."
-They will rise when turned from straight ahead position if caster is at ZERO. If positive, the "outside" fender will fall a "tiny" amount before it rises then the wheel is turned more. The inside will rise from jump.
-Not usable for caster setting.
"They say that the steering gear plays no role in assisting the wheels to self-center, but can the gear play a role to thwart the wheels from self-centering?"
-Yes, it can mess everything up if it's defective in anyway shape or form.
Chrysler installed a NEW warranty power steering gear box on Dads 71 Imperial in late 71 because the original had a massive failure. The replacement never behaved right. It didn't return from right turn.
The dealer unit man (the guy that knows all about everything?) had it apart 3 times. Another NEW box from Chrysler installed by the dealer fixed the problem.
It appears that the only two likely variables from when it was working right on the 3-mile drive home from storage are the alignment or the steering box.
Your alignment is suspect, meaning it ain't perfect. But I don't think that is the cause of the symptoms you describe. I say that because I've not seen alignment be the cause of your symptoms and can't see how it would because I don't think you can get enough positive caster (like an arbitrary #of 10 degrees?) to overcome the kingpin inclination self-centering at slow speed.
Positive caster "allows" the car to run straight "or" follow any external forces (wind, crown) applied to the car, it doesn't "make" it run straight.
The behavior you describe indicates that the steering box is still misbehaving. I think.
But, I just did an alignment on an 87 5TH AVE that was setup 3.5 "positive" caster and 3.5 "negative" caster, opposing sides. Never seen that before. One-degree positive camber, 1/2 positive toe.
The car presented as nervous at 30/70 mph with self-centering messed up "only" at the very center of the range. Like within 10 degrees to either side of dead center of the steering wheel. Apparently, the last person to line it up got confused on their iny/outy wheel turning for the caster check.
In then out on one side, out then in on the other. Otherwise, perfect alignment.
So, you're leaning more than you ever wanted to about Chrysler steering.
And Big_John is chasing a drive line thing that he expects to finally get sorted out some time NEXT year.
Ok thanks for that. I see there is just one knuckle (PN 2269129) for the slab C-bodies with front drums (no left / right PN) so I can rule out a left-right mixup here.
And one other thing - I have radials on the front now, I did have biased up to the frame swap, I don't remember if my first few drives after the swap were also with the biased but the current situation is with new radial tires.
The frame that I swapped in - it also did have it's PS gear still there, and I have that on a shelf now. I have no idea of it's history or condition, but I have that to work with over the winter, I doubt I'll be able to do anything with the existing gearbox (like take it out a second time) until next year.
And one other thing - I have radials on the front now, I did have biased up to the frame swap, I don't remember if my first few drives after the swap were also with the biased but the current situation is with new radial tires.
The frame that I swapped in - it also did have it's PS gear still there, and I have that on a shelf now. I have no idea of it's history or condition, but I have that to work with over the winter, I doubt I'll be able to do anything with the existing gearbox (like take it out a second time) until next year.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
Maybe the other box is good to go and will fix the problem without disassembly.
1962 Crown Conv
New Member
Self-centering on these systems was aided by the idler arm bushing. It is not supposed to act like a bearing, the rubber is supposed to flex when the steering wheel is turned. You install it by loosening the bolt, then centering the steering, then tightening the bushing bolt again. Some people installed an after-market kit with a grease fitting to lube the bushing, but that defeated the whole purpose. It wasn't supposed to be lubed. When it is new and properly installed, the car will tend to automatically steer straight down the road.
Thanks for that. That gives me something to look into. My original PS gear was still bolted to the pitman arm, center link AND idler arm when I moved them as a unit to the new stub frame. I think the idler arm felt stiff, but I don't know if I tightened it in the center position. I have 3 other new idler arms that I've acquired, one I've had for 30 years, I do note that it does not have a grease fitting.
I've just done some web searching about idler arms and it does come up in other (non-mopar) forums, where some say the same thing about it aiding in self-centering and others countering that it's leverage is too small to be a factor.
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