Sure-Brake - I know, most hate it and parts hard to find..but I do have questions

[wrek]

Hi. NOOB to the site. I know Sure-Brake was the first sort of 4 wheel ABS system and I say sort of as the rear wheels were not independent which is why Chrysler and MB can both say they were first. Parts are hard to find and the analog controller from Bendix was not reliable. So why am I interested? It's an obssesion and those aren't logical. I have been looking for a car equipped with it. Also I have easy access to a guy who took every wiring harness out of a 92 Miata, made new ones with awesome Deutsch connectors, Each "wire" being a micro coax for clean signals, dumped the stock ECU for a MaxECU, added CAN bus, and a bunch of other MaxECU modules that allowed him to get rid of nearly all fuses and relays, and thus far has added throttle by wire, Knock detection, a Rotrex blower, and on and on. The guy has spent probably USD$15K on a USD$1.5K car. I am not exaggerating, he's good. Other plans include electric brake booster and electric power steering, and electric AC. He hopes to salvage an AC system out of a Hybrid of some kind. One other thing, for those who wonder about discarding fuses and such, he does some magic with the CAN bus and power control modules for the MaxECU and the power modules essentially control the power and have the capability to cut the power to that circuit if there's an issue. I am probably getting some of this wrong, but you get the point. So I have a wizard to help. Now to find a car equipped with Sure-Brake (S-B) and buy it.
The only one I have seen for sale in the last 5 years or so was a 2 door and I want a 4 door. I figure if you are going to be delusional, you might as well go off your meds and see the world you want. That two door even had a sunroof, but it was a MN (might have been MI) car and it had "slight rust". It was covid time, I didn't want to travel and rust is a 4 letter word for me. I am a native Floridian and much as folk in the north want a "Florida car", I don't want a rust belt or lived near the coast car.
I want to thank this site for showing me the location of the front modulators and the box in the trunk. Except that one car which stated it had S-B, Every other car had an owner that had no idea what Sure-Brake was, and my lack of knowledge kept me from telling them where to look. I found a 4 door 73 in the south with 60K miles, but I think it is a low option (base?) model as it has cloth seats but it has auto headlamps and cruise control. I've no idea if those were available on the "base" caar or not. The cloth seats even they look great except for a 3 inch tear in the drivers seat. There are enough upholstery shopps in my general neighborhood that I have little doubt I can get a tear rewoven (for a price of course). The Cubans who made it into the states in the various shops I refer to seem to have magical abilities to make something from nothing, install LADA engines in a Cadillac, and make it run and have all the warning lights work. OK, so I do exaggerate a bit. Oh, and in the older, like 50s and 60s cars had Imperial, Lebaron, and Crown levels of trim (I think). Do the 71-73 models have the equivalent or am I completely confused? If so what are the major differences? If I find a Crown, do I have to buy an Imperial margerine crown, hire a driver and sit in the back? Or will one made with several Crown Royal bags be a better choice?
So finally the rambling old guy gets to the point.
1. Is there an option code for S-B on the build plate/tag and where's the tag located? I did search for the option code in a list of them on this site, but nothing showed up for Sure-Brake. Is there an easy way to describe to a laymen what to look for to see if the system s there. I once read that if you held your foot on the brake for some number of seconds while starting the car, the Sure-Brake warning light would do something as the systeem tested itself.
2. Was there a Heavy Duty towing option on the 71-73 Imperials? Again, from this site it appears the last towing package for the Imperial was in '70. If there was an HD tow package, what was the max tow weight? Could you get S-B with the HD tow package? We travel to NC evwery year and I have a degenertive joint disease so getting in and out of the Miata is not as easy any more so what he calls a "tow b*tch" that would handle about 5K lbs would be awesome. I am old enopugh to remeber big Caddys and Olds and Ford wagons pulling huge Airstreams back in the day long before F350s you see today. With the Imperial, all Chrysler products were unibody from before then weren't they? So maybe it's the lack of a frame to attach load equalizing hitches.
Just so you don't think I have completely lost it the car I found appears to have zero rust. The vinyl roof has not peeled, etc. There are no bubbles in the vinyl, not even around the rear windshield or at the base where the roof joins the trunk. So the seller either knows photoshop or the car is real. The only issue the car seems to have is the (SURPRISE!) is the blower motor/ Auto-Temp II controller that has the plastic part that MB made Al when they licensed it from Chrysler.
Lest all of you think I really am bonkers it's been a week. Best I leave it at that or it'll be TMI. Except, if you know how to lure the 2-3 lb Cane Toad into a trap of some sort, let me know. If you dog decides to try to catch it and succeeds just accept it is going to die I have 3 dogs, safe so far, but... Just Google "Cane Toad" if you're bored

This group seems to be a good one and I'm glad to be here. Have a good weekebnd.

WREK (anyone know who's coming to the Omni for 3 days only?) If you know the answer, you'll know my alma mater.

 

[CBODY67]

Have you looked for Chrysler Factory Service Manuals for the particular years at www.mymopar.com? Have you investigated the Chrysler MasterTech videos there too? OR the factory sales data books for Imperials at www.hamtramck-historical.com?

There was an article in Popular Science magazine which was in-depth about how Chrysler's "ground-breaking" 4-wheel anti-lock brake system operated.

At the time Chrysler did their 4-whl system, most of the anti-lock systems were only on the rear wheels, taking the speed reading off of a tone wheel on the pinion shaft or the rear axle gearset. One signal for two wheels.

Chrysler's system, by comparison, had 4 wheel speed sensors, one at each wheel. Nothing unusual there, so far, just more sensors to feed wheel speed data to the computer. What made the system unique was that it had TWO deceleration measurements rather than ONE (as everybody else's system did). Other systems were either "full on" or "full off", as to the brake application forces.

Chryslers, in effect, had THREE, "full on", "full off", and "1/2 on". Each of the "on" levels corresponded with a particular rate of deceleration target. The magazine article had pictures of an Imperial with SB going around corners on wet pavement (sprinklers turned on a handling course). The article lauded how much safer the system was.

It also seems like the system was only on Imperials with the 4-wheel power disc brake option? It also seems like I recall reading, later on, that only about 200 of the Sure-Brake option packages were installed that one model year?

Back then, there was reluctance of customers and dealers to have cars with computers running them. If it was similar to the later EFI Imperials, only certain dealers could order or sell them provided they purchased the necessary special tooling/diagnostic equipment to work on them. As I recall, the system was not terribly expensive as an option, but it was new territory . . . safety-related territory and THAT could make dealers persuade potential customers away from the option, as the dealers did not really desire to get involved in any possible lawsuits against them and/or Chrysler for not correctly fixing a possible problem, should it occur. So, "You really don't need that, as the standard equipment is plenty fine . . ." was probably the dialogue from the dealer sales people than not, I suspect.

Tow packages? Find information on them at www.Hamtramck-historical.com in the "Sales Guides". Back in the 1980s, a friend bought a '77 Lincoln Coupe and wanted to upgrade the suspension a bit. I suspected any upgrades would come from "tow packate" itrems, like bigger sway bars and such. My associate at the Ford store, who used to work at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership, replied that there were no HD suspension parts for the Lincolns, as the stock suspension was stout enough to handle small trailers (horse trailers) and 20' travel trailers. Any "tow package" items would be things like automatic leveling, a Class III hitch, and up-sized transmission coolers. This was in a time well before pickup trucks or Suburbans were used for towing trailers, unlike now. If you look under the back of a Fuselage-era Imperial, the rear springs look like they ought to be under a 3/4 ton pickup truck, compared to the normal New Yorker rear springs. Additionally, people who were really serious about towing 20' Airstreams usually desired a full-frame vehicle (Cadillac or Lincoln) for that use. Not a UniBody Chrysler. Not that the Chrysler product would not pull and handle the trailer at least as well, just that they could hook the hitch to a normal frame rail than what UniBody Chrysler products had. BTAIM

As good as the www.mymopar.com "Library" and "Service Manual" sections are, they do not go far newer than 1974 on Chrysler cars. Yet the MasterTech videos DO. Additionally, the Online Imperial Club website might have more Imperial-specific information on the Sure-Brake system, plus how to repair around it due to non-availability of repair parts.

As to anti-lock brake systems, although Chrysler had their industry-leading system, the general public was not ready for it, especially to buy it as an option. Additionally, in about 1975 or 1976, the Feds mandated anti-lock brake systems for sold-new over-the-road tractor-trailer truck rigs. "Computer brakes" as they were termed. THAT industry was NOT ready for it, NOR were its truck stop technicians. No easy way to diagnose problems and the computer control modules were all "potted", so no repairs, just exchanges. End result, after a mountain of complaints and angry truckers with recurring brake problems, the Feds relented until the systems had been better tested and such. Many of those original "computer brake" trucks were retrofitted with normal brake systems, which made everybody happy.

When anti-lock brakes became standard on GM cars, later on, as simple as a computer-operated "on and off" brake pressure cycle might be, there were systems from several vendors and it seemed that GM was trying them all out. Some had shorter stopping distances than others, too. AND it all changed with each near model year, for about 10 model years. By the later 1990s, the factory GM systems had their own computer module to pulse the 4-wheel system's brakes, even maintain max pedal pressure in a panic stop, even if the driver might have backed-off the pedal pressure a bit. Using the GM controller, you could also bleed the brake system by pulsing the ABS module, too. No crawling under the vehicle and manually bleeding the system.

As to retro-fitting an ABS system to a Chrysler product? Use components from a late-1990s Chevy Caprice. Then figure out how to get the wheel-speed sensors to work on the Chrysler. Plus getting it all plumbed and wired!

I understand your excitement about the accomplishments of your Mazda friend. In many cases, "overkill" never is really cost-effective, unfortunately.

By observation, most of the "new tech" items in the industry are usually introduced by Chrysler, as Ford is usualy the one who opens new market niches. Then . . . GM gets those new things, tears them apart and figures out how to do it more simply and at less cost. Then THEY introduce it and sell millions of them a year or so later. GM is usually more cautious about "new tech" unless they are "shamed" into it, by observation. As Chrysler owners complain about their more-troublesome cars, while GM and Ford tend to get a "it's a new item, it's gonna have some issues" orientation instead. At least that's how it was back then.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[wrek]

Have you looked for Chrysler Factory Service Manuals for the particular years at www.mymopar.com? Have you investigated the Chrysler MasterTech videos there too? OR the factory sales data books for Imperials at www.hamtramck-historical.com?

There was an article in Popular Science magazine which was in-depth about how Chrysler's "ground-breaking" 4-wheel anti-lock brake system operated.

At the time Chrysler did their 4-whl system, most of the anti-lock systems were only on the rear wheels, taking the speed reading off of a tone wheel on the pinion shaft or the rear axle gearset. One signal for two wheels.

Chrysler's system, by comparison, had 4 wheel speed sensors, one at each wheel. Nothing unusual there, so far, just more sensors to feed wheel speed data to the computer. What made the system unique was that it had TWO deceleration measurements rather than ONE (as everybody else's system did). Other systems were either "full on" or "full off", as to the brake application forces.

Chryslers, in effect, had THREE, "full on", "full off", and "1/2 on". Each of the "on" levels corresponded with a particular rate of deceleration target. The magazine article had pictures of an Imperial with SB going around corners on wet pavement (sprinklers turned on a handling course). The article lauded how much safer the system was.

It also seems like the system was only on Imperials with the 4-wheel power disc brake option? It also seems like I recall reading, later on, that only about 200 of the Sure-Brake option packages were installed that one model year?

Back then, there was reluctance of customers and dealers to have cars with computers running them. If it was similar to the later EFI Imperials, only certain dealers could order or sell them provided they purchased the necessary special tooling/diagnostic equipment to work on them. As I recall, the system was not terribly expensive as an option, but it was new territory . . . safety-related territory and THAT could make dealers persuade potential customers away from the option, as the dealers did not really desire to get involved in any possible lawsuits against them and/or Chrysler for not correctly fixing a possible problem, should it occur. So, "You really don't need that, as the standard equipment is plenty fine . . ." was probably the dialogue from the dealer sales people than not, I suspect.

Tow packages? Find information on them at www.Hamtramck-historical.com in the "Sales Guides". Back in the 1980s, a friend bought a '77 Lincoln Coupe and wanted to upgrade the suspension a bit. I suspected any upgrades would come from "tow packate" itrems, like bigger sway bars and such. My associate at the Ford store, who used to work at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership, replied that there were no HD suspension parts for the Lincolns, as the stock suspension was stout enough to handle small trailers (horse trailers) and 20' travel trailers. Any "tow package" items would be things like automatic leveling, a Class III hitch, and up-sized transmission coolers. This was in a time well before pickup trucks or Suburbans were used for towing trailers, unlike now. If you look under the back of a Fuselage-era Imperial, the rear springs look like they ought to be under a 3/4 ton pickup truck, compared to the normal New Yorker rear springs. Additionally, people who were really serious about towing 20' Airstreams usually desired a full-frame vehicle (Cadillac or Lincoln) for that use. Not a UniBody Chrysler. Not that the Chrysler product would not pull and handle the trailer at least as well, just that they could hook the hitch to a normal frame rail than what UniBody Chrysler products had. BTAIM

As good as the www.mymopar.com "Library" and "Service Manual" sections are, they do not go far newer than 1974 on Chrysler cars. Yet the MasterTech videos DO. Additionally, the Online Imperial Club website might have more Imperial-specific information on the Sure-Brake system, plus how to repair around it due to non-availability of repair parts.

As to anti-lock brake systems, although Chrysler had their industry-leading system, the general public was not ready for it, especially to buy it as an option. Additionally, in about 1975 or 1976, the Feds mandated anti-lock brake systems for sold-new over-the-road tractor-trailer truck rigs. "Computer brakes" as they were termed. THAT industry was NOT ready for it, NOR were its truck stop technicians. No easy way to diagnose problems and the computer control modules were all "potted", so no repairs, just exchanges. End result, after a mountain of complaints and angry truckers with recurring brake problems, the Feds relented until the systems had been better tested and such. Many of those original "computer brake" trucks were retrofitted with normal brake systems, which made everybody happy.

When anti-lock brakes became standard on GM cars, later on, as simple as a computer-operated "on and off" brake pressure cycle might be, there were systems from several vendors and it seemed that GM was trying them all out. Some had shorter stopping distances than others, too. AND it all changed with each near model year, for about 10 model years. By the later 1990s, the factory GM systems had their own computer module to pulse the 4-wheel system's brakes, even maintain max pedal pressure in a panic stop, even if the driver might have backed-off the pedal pressure a bit. Using the GM controller, you could also bleed the brake system by pulsing the ABS module, too. No crawling under the vehicle and manually bleeding the system.

As to retro-fitting an ABS system to a Chrysler product? Use components from a late-1990s Chevy Caprice. Then figure out how to get the wheel-speed sensors to work on the Chrysler. Plus getting it all plumbed and wired!

I understand your excitement about the accomplishments of your Mazda friend. In many cases, "overkill" never is really cost-effective, unfortunately.

By observation, most of the "new tech" items in the industry are usually introduced by Chrysler, as Ford is usualy the one who opens new market niches. Then . . . GM gets those new things, tears them apart and figures out how to do it more simply and at less cost. Then THEY introduce it and sell millions of them a year or so later. GM is usually more cautious about "new tech" unless they are "shamed" into it, by observation. As Chrysler owners complain about their more-troublesome cars, while GM and Ford tend to get a "it's a new item, it's gonna have some issues" orientation instead. At least that's how it was back then.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

A few things...
I was unaware of the rear discs with SB. As I understood it SB had one modulator for the rears. And yes it was and to my knowledge the only two speedsystem ever. If memory serves me, it was 5 cycles per sec and 7 cycles per second. The 7 cps was intended for ice? Not sure. I think gravel is still a problem as the optimal braking occurs when a locked wheel digs a rut.
I also read the PS article in hardcopy, in the school library, during study hall in the 8th grade...thus the "if my memory serves me" LOL. I have wannted one ever since! MB intro'd their first all wheel system in the US in 77 or 78 on the S class. Again, IIRC it was on the 450SEL 6.9 or maybe that was the first year it was available in the US for the 6.9 and the S class in general was prior. The Euros had much better acceptance than we did. At $400, people skipped Sure-Brake. Around 74-75 GM offered their ACRS (Air Cushion Restraint Sytem) and had pretty much the same issue of price. Then there was the story of one of the Olds guys who was driving in his company car back to Lansing from Detroit one evening. He had the cruise on and fell assleep at the wheel. He drove into the back of a tractor trailer. The airbag stuffed his pipe down his throat. He had a sore throat but he walked away from it. All of that was just before my time at Olds. I got to experience the first round of downsizing, Low dispersion laquer paint, Olds diesel, and the 80X (Omega, Chevy Citation series) times. Contrary to urban legend, the Citation got its name from the triple crown winner, that is why there is a ribbon emblem on the car.
As to retro fitting, I am not my friend. I want as original as I can get. He's not burning the cash for anything other than his hobby and his form of fun. Unfortunately he asked me did thee SAAB method of detecting ping/detonation, looking at ionization. Actually it did. they measured the resistance across the gap in the plugs as the plug fired. It worked incredibly well. All three of the SAAB turbos I owned never had a ping. Even when I couldn't get premium.
200 sales on the '73? Shucks, I guess i'll have to bring the 71 and 72 into my picture. I just like the front end styling on the '73. 74 got us the new C body and chrome plated cross ties for bumpers. Ford was the worst in my opinion for massive bumpers. The 73 LTD borrowed heaviy from the ESV program. GM's was the Chevy Malibu.
Bit of trivia, the Experimental Safety Vehicle program was funded (at least partiaally) by the NHTSA and the goal was survive a head on/ full barrier crash and survive. It was hoped the knowledge could be applied to regular cars as a result of the program. The prototypes for everyone did not meet the spec and they were all very heavy and got around 4 MPG. There were two production cars that were designed to meet the original '75 standards. The first should be no surprise as it was the Volvo 240. When I learned of the second, I was a bit shocked. It was the FIAT X1/9.

Ford was nuts in those days. When new parts superceded the old ones, there was no clear cutoff for the change. They did not pick a date, stop using the old part and put the new one in production. They would figure out a way to use as much of the old stock as possible. This created a lot of grey area things. Maybe the end goal was a new carb. In the mean time they had a lot of old carb bodies, but not old vacuum thingies that released the choke after warm up. So the new vacuum thingy assembly was kludged onto the old carb body until they ran out of carb bodies. AND, if the item was built in more than one location, It could be different there. I once had a Ford from that period and I went to the dealer to buy a part for it. I got the usual, which car, engine, tranmission stuff questions. For whaatever part I bought, the last question was What color is it, white or some other?

Many thanks for the links you gave me. It will keep me off the streets and out of trouble for a few days while I read. time to pay the flood insurance bill and do the rest of my chores. Later,

WREK

 

[Carmine]

The four-wheel disc brake Imperials were 74 and 75, these were not offered with abs/SB. I live in Michigan and once owned a 1973 Coupe that I believe came from Minnesota. It was yellow with a white top and white leather seats. I wish I had never sold it. Just out of curiosity do you remember where you saw this vehicle posted for sale? I probably sold mine around 2005. Although that car was from the Midwest, it was never winter driven and consequently looked as good as anything from out west.. perhaps better because none of the Soft Trim was ruined.

If you see an underhood photo of a car with sure brake that includes the radiator yolk, especially the area just in front of it, it's easy to identify. It has an enormous vacuum actuator that looks like a moonshine still with more plumbing.

 

[CBODY67]

Thanks for that model year, Carmine. When I wrote that, I was thinking the rear discs were more in the Formal era. Reason was that the local dealer was kind of badgering me to buy a new Chrysler, being just out of college and in a first job. I remember telling him that IF he could order a NY with the Imperial rear disc brakes on it, I might consider it. He replied that IF they would build it that way, he'd get it. That was as far as that went.

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

Update -- A Google search for "Chrysler Sure-Brake" brought up many items, including the download (for purchase) of the Chrysler "transaction" about the system it presented to S.A.E. In the short section on that webpage, it mentioned the option for the 1971 model year on Imperials.

Other search results included an item on the OnlineImperialClub website, too. From the sales guide, with a search function for other pages of that guide. www.web.onlineimperialclub.info , I believe. Funny IRL as their website apparently has been hacked or otherwise a few times over the years?

So, LOTS of information out there via friend Google.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Mr C]

Super rare. I never saw a car with Sure Brake even when they were new.

 

[wrek]

The four-wheel disc brake Imperials were 74 and 75, these were not offered with abs/SB. I live in Michigan and once owned a 1973 Coupe that I believe came from Minnesota. It was yellow with a white top and white leather seats. I wish I had never sold it. Just out of curiosity do you remember where you saw this vehicle posted for sale? I probably sold mine around 2005. Although that car was from the Midwest, it was never winter driven and consequently looked as good as anything from out west.. perhaps better because none of the Soft Trim was ruined.

If you see an underhood photo of a car with sure brake that includes the radiator yolk, especially the area just in front of it, it's easy to identify. It has an enormous vacuum actuator that looks like a moonshine still with more plumbing.

The ad I saw was 18 to 24 months ago. I remember the story was either a retiring Chrysler employee or maybe Imperial fan had ordered it with most if not all options. It was some variation of a medium brown metallic 2 door with a contrasting light vinyl roof. There wwere two options on the car that stood out to me. A power moonroof and what the seller referred to as ABS, as in "It even has the very rare ABS option". I m pretty sure it was a '73.
I have often wondered where the "controllers" in the wheel wells were located. I knew they were not the "coffee can" (my words) vacuum storage cans on the right fender under the hood as everything sseemed to have them. Honestly, I am not sure I understand how SB actually works vs current ABS systems.

After many years of being curious about the system, I have made a decision to move on. SB is rare. The parts to keep it working are more rare than rare. While I absolutely drool over the styling of the 71-73 Imperial, SB has always been the thing that piqued my interest.

So I am going to step away and think about all of this before I move forward.

Thanks for the feedback and info!!

WREK

 

[Dragon88]

My 72 imperial has the Sure-brake system. it is not working and the old owner broke all the wheel sensors and cant get any parts for them so far.
i can say it takes a lot of space and al lot of extra steel lines and wires.