Tire balancing question

[CBODY67]

The reason the shocks might become important is something called "road force variation". Which means the "spring" in the tire varies as it rolls against the pavement. Unlike the older bias ply designs, radials have a "flat spot" as they roll on the pavement. High quality tires have always taken less weight, generally, than not quite so high quality brands, by observation. A tire can be in complete balance on the machine but still have some vibration from the "hard spots" (what we used to term them) in the tire's carcass, which changes "the spring" resonant freequency of the tire itself.

CBODY67

 

[Triple Pickle]

Seeing how they did you, I think the next time I need something balanced, maybe I'd take some pix of the setup, then peel all the weights back off before I took it to them!! Another thing to remember.... you are balancing the wheel and tire obviously. If you broke down the bead and moved the tire, then you would possibly be looking at a whole different ballgame, maybe way better, maybe worse. It may be worth your trouble to have someone follow you and watch your tire.....sometimes the really bad ones will show a broken belt or wobble that you would have a hard time catching otherwise, 'til it fails on you.

**EDIT** Now that your pix have loaded, to me it does look like they pulled off one big weight and then split it into two different locations, although maybe the total is even more weight???

They did not remove the the first two weights that they had put on when mounting the tire originally. I noted where they were before they took it in to balance it. The same weights were still on it in the same places when they brought it back out. Plus two more in different areas as seen in the pictures.
My question was/is is that the way to balance a tire? Just keep adding weights to it, chasing it round and round?
I’ve used both kind of balancers in my time.,as I recall when you have to keep adding weights in different places somethings wrong and you need to start over from zero.

 

[Old Boomer]

I bought new tires for my 73 Olds a while back and since then it has a vibration about 60 mph.
I suspected an out of balance tire as it didn’t do it with another set I had on it.
I took the one I suspected off (right rear) and took it to the tire shop where I got the tires and asked them to check it. Here’s what they done…
Instead of removing the weights they put on originally, they just added more. In a different area. To me that’s not the way it should be done. Thoughts? I haven’t tried it out yet to see if that helps it.

View attachment 613625

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All previous weights should be removed and re balanced. I used to mount and balance for a living. I experimented on my own stuff. I put a pair of weights on. Then balanced it. Shook at about 50 mph. Removed all the weights and re balanced. Smooth after that. Also check the production date of the tire. If you got the 4 for 3 deal. They slip an outdated tire into the mix.

 

[rags]

I also think there’s something to the shocks letting it bounce more than it normally would

i've seen so many vehicles with shocks and struts completely blown out, no fluid in them whatsoever. never any associated tire cupping or balance/vibration issues.

 

[Triple Pickle]

i've seen so many vehicles with shocks and struts completely blown out, no fluid in them whatsoever. never any associated tire cupping or balance/vibration issues.

Yes, but maybe they didn’t have an issue with the tires. What I’m thinking is that a slightly out of balance tire unchecked by the dampening effect of a good shock absorber would seem worse than it is. A google search will net many instances consistent with this theory.

 

[rags]

slightly out of balance

it shouldn't be out of balance to start with. the car didn't have the issue previously, it shouldn't have it now. i've seen loose tie rod ends amplify a balance issue. more likely a long running tire vibration would be the cause not the effect of an associated steering or suspension failure.

 

[Triple Pickle]

it shouldn't be out of balance to start with. the car didn't have the issue previously, it shouldn't have it now. i've seen loose tie rod ends amplify a balance issue. more likely a long running tire vibration would be the cause not the effect of an associated steering or suspension failure.

I just got back from a test drive. It’s better but, it’s still there. It’s not horrible but, on an otherwise smooth and quiet car it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I agree, it shouldn’t be out of balance to begin with. I believe I’m dealing with a bad set of tires. I’m going over to the tire shop soon to see if we can work out a remedy.
Every truck,car, lawnmower, boat trailer, farm tractor I have has a set of tires that I bought new from these guys and I’ve never had an issue till now. I think they will make it good.
Custom 428 I think is the brand. Stay away from them I say!

 

[CBODY67]

Custom 428 I think is the brand. Stay away from them I say!

Houston, I think we've found the problem . . . . .

Many brands have left the 14" sizes "for dead", although millions of cars are still out there with those size tires. Fortunately, or otherwise, the oriental brands have sought to fill the void. Even if these brands might be a sub-brand of a sub-brand or a sub-brand of a USA brand. As the USA brands focus on more late-model sizes.

In any event, as with new cars, it's the local dealer which makes things good, even if the brand might be a small bit flaky. Even in the 1970s, many "unheard of" brands were around, especially out in the boondocks where money was tighter and "value" was important.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[Toolmanmike]

Even back in the bubble balance days, if it took a bit of weight in one spot to center the bubble, a good service station guy would split that big weight into two weights, putting one on the outside and one on the inside, which put the bubble in the middle circle.

On the later (1990s+) computer balancers we had at the dealership, I have seen some jobs where the balancer indicated a, say 1.0 oz weight in one spot, then a smaller, say .25 oz. weight on the backside in a totally different location (compared to the first weight on the outside). And with that, when final tested, it came up as balanced. Just depends on where the balancer detects "heavy spots" to be compensated for.

I also watched the local Exxon guy bubble balance Atlas Plycron tires with no more than 1/2 oz per tire. If they needed more, it was unusual, by observation.

CBODY67

One is for static balance and the other is for dynamic balance. By spinning a tire up on a balancer, you can easily see if it is out of round or has a broken belt.

 

[Toolmanmike]

I have balanced thousands of tires in my career. Back in the old bubble balance days, (static balance) we would use 4 one ounce weights, split with 2 on the back and 2 on the front. It seemed to do a good job splitting the weight and getting a better balance. Of course we used that much weight only if needed. I have balanced many tires on the computerized spin balancers that took no weight. I have also balanced many that called for 4 oz. or more. In that case it is best to break the tire down and spin it on the rim 90° and rebalance. Many times that will reduce the weight called for. I have even removed the tire and just spun the bare rim to diagnose the balance issue as a rim or tire problem.

 

[Triple Pickle]

Conclusion: I Took it over to the tire shop and had a talk with the owner. He agreed that adding weights like they did wasn’t the correct way to do it. I pulled the car in and he conducted a class on how to balance tires right. They were all out a little…some more than others.
He said the real issue was that they were using the wrong cone to secure the wheel to the machine. These Rallye wheels have a odd shaped pattern of spokes that take a different cone than they had previously used.
It’s much better now but still not perfect. I’m going to live with it. I guess it’s just not reasonable to expect a GM A body with coil springs to ride as good as our Chrysler C bodies!

 

[Just Carbs]

I don't know about that. The 70s GM products I've had ran smooth as glass on a good road at 70. The last one was a 77 Cutlass with Goodrich T/As. The Cooper Cobra G/Ts were smooth also, but a bit stiffer sidewall.

I've been having a lot of balancing problems with price item tires like the Nexen 235/75-15 and Hankook 235/75-15 tires on 60s and 70s cars.

Tire shop says tires are balanced; car says tires are not balanced.

Not interested in standing there and arguing about it since maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

So, I take the car home and then the rigmarole starts.

Tire/wheel goes on front rotor and run out gets checked. No, that ain't it. Tire/wheel is round.
Round tire/wheel goes on rear axle to check axle run out. No, that ain't it. Axle is straight.
Grease seal, grease, and caliper are removed from front rotor and tire/wheel is put back on friction free front rotor and checked for static balance, no that ain't it. Tire is balanced.
Tire is spun up with my old Hunter on car spin balancer. No, that ain't it. Tire is balance.
Tire is removed from wheel to see innards. Bingo, tire has faulty belt overlap construction resulting in a thick spot.

Tire goes back to shop for replacement. Car likes new tire.

 

[Triple Pickle]

I don't know about that. The 70s GM products I've had ran smooth as glass on a good road at 70. The last one was a 77 Cutlass with Goodrich T/As. The Cooper Cobra G/Ts were smooth also, but a bit stiffer sidewall.

I've been having a lot of balancing problems with price item tires like the Nexen 235/75-15 and Hankook 235/75-15 tires on 60s and 70s cars.

Tire shop says tires are balanced; car says tires are not balanced.

Not interested in standing there and arguing about it since maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

So, I take the car home and then the rigmarole starts.

Tire/wheel goes on front rotor and run out gets checked. No, that ain't it. Tire/wheel is round.
Round tire/wheel goes on rear axle to check axle run out. No, that ain't it. Axle is straight.
Grease seal, grease, and caliper are removed from front rotor and tire/wheel is put back on friction free front rotor and checked for static balance, no that ain't it. Tire is balanced.
Tire is spun up with my old Hunter on car spin balancer. No, that ain't it. Tire is balance.
Tire is removed from wheel to see innards. Bingo, tire has faulty belt overlap construction resulting in a thick spot.

Tire goes back to shop for replacement. Car likes new tire.

I’ve got one of each in very similar condition and mileage. The C puts the A to shame in terms of ride and handling. So, I do know about that!

 

[Just Carbs]

The average GM A don't handle so hot. Got a nice mushy ride.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Tire balancing is a load of ****. If it will not bubble balance something is wrong. The spin balancer makes the mechanics life easier, better, but the mechanic is still the variable.
There is a whole picture chart on the wall in every semi decent tire shop and every picture of a tire is your or your cars fault. No where on that chart does it say "just a piece of **** tire"
All I ever do is bubble balance my tires and they run fine to at least a hundred miles an hour.
I like when you get the car back and the wheel is still caked with grease and mud in the wheel and it has a new balanced tire good till first pressure wash LoL.
Tire dealers are like lawyers. You are going to need them someday, but if you can not use them your life is instantly better.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The average GM A don't handle so hot. Got a nice mushy ride.

Not to mention folding the tire under the car because the Ackerman angles are variable as you turn the wheel.
The rear end also wallows around trying to stay under the car with 10, 1 1/4" bushing at multiple angles and travel arcs.

 

[rags]

the tire shop

that's a cool shop.

 

[Just Carbs]

Not to mention folding the tire under the car because the Ackerman angles are variable as you turn the wheel.
The rear end also wallows around trying to stay under the car with 10, 1 1/4" bushing at multiple angles and travel arcs.

Yes, it's coming back to me now, the much-loved 50 mph A body rear duck waddle.
But who cares if you scrub off a set of $200 front tires every 20k miles in the parking lot?

 

[Triple Pickle]

Yes, it's coming back to me now, the much-loved 50 mph A body rear duck waddle.
But who cares if you scrub off a set of $200 front tires every 20k miles in the parking lot?

When the GM A bodies transitioned into G bodies in 78 they developed what people refer to as “the G body shuffle” at the drag strip. Good times!!

 

[Toolmanmike]

Yes, it's coming back to me now, the much-loved 50 mph A body rear duck waddle.
But who cares if you scrub off a set of $200 front tires every 20k miles in the parking lot?

Ha! I worked at the Buick dealer back then. Uniroyal Tiger Paw tires with broken belts. They were a joke and people were pissed. . So much for low bid!