Voyager 1 and 2 still alive!!!! 38,000 mph!

Picture time :)

“We hadn’t really expected it to be this good, to be honest,” said planetary astronomer Imke de Pater, professor emerita of the University of California, Berkeley. De Pater led the observations of Jupiter with Thierry Fouchet, a professor at the Paris Observatory, as part of an international collaboration for Webb’s Early Release Science program.

“It’s really remarkable that we can see details on Jupiter together with its rings, tiny satellites, and even galaxies in one image”


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Webb’s Jupiter Images Showcase Auroras, Hazes – James Webb Space Telescope
 
In a wide-field view, Webb sees Jupiter with its faint rings, which are a million times fainter than the planet, and two tiny moons called Amalthea and Adrastea. The fuzzy spots in the lower background are likely galaxies “photobombing” this Jovian view.

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As @thethee pointed out in the link, the fact that Webb looks at a planet and sees galaxies (orange circles I put on around fuzzy things, based on description) is just remarkable.

Bottom pic is from Hubble (source: Hubble Captures Crisp New Portrait of Jupiter's Storms). You see one of Jupiter's moons (Europa), but no "rings" and nothing but inky blackness of space in the background beyond the planet.

No orange circles cuz Hubble didn't see them -- it can't collect enough light vs, Webb.

I guess if Hubble stared at the spot where Jupiter is (relative to Earth" long enough it could see more background stuff. But Jupiter is rotating and orbiting in the meantime, and its very near Earth vs. background objective, I am not sure Hubble's view of the moving planet over a long exposure would be useful.

Webb shows us what Hubble taught us though .. look anywhere in the sky, in any direction, you will find galaxies by the billions, each with billions of stars, and likely trillions of planets.

Webb is vividly showing its technical capability by doing it while taking "snapshots" of something as big/bright as Jupiter .. its the big mirrors and infrared wavelengths Webb uses.

Again, aint dissin' Hubble -- and, again, Hubble is one of the greatest machines humans ever came up with and likely will be on the list of "best ever" for centuries to come. Launched with mirror issues, its over achieved everything we wanted from it.

Then, think about what it took to get Webb up there (source: Looking back in time: Development and delays of the James Webb Space Telescope)

Over 25 years in development (conceptualized in 1996, prime contractor chosen in 2003, nearly cancelled in 2011), using technologies that didn't even exist (just like Apollo program) when it was conceived, billions of dollars in cost overruns .. and it too is exceeding all expectations.

And likely will help us find/understand something truly profound. As they say, "things worth having are worth waiting for".

I'm gettin' old though ..I can't wait.. :)
 
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Yesterday, one of the consortia investigating JWST images put together the largest single photo, made from 690 separate images, from Webb. It includes an image of the oldest galaxy (Maisies's Galaxy @ 290M years after the Big Bang) from a couple weeks ago.

Article/photo source: Marvel at the James Webb Space Telescope's largest image of the cosmos yet

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Again, image above is a mosaic of 690 separate photos (taken over 24 hours by JWST).. how in the world do you go about finding a single dot in all those dots?

Supercomputers -- some of the most powerful in the world at Univ. of Texas @ Austin. These machines "stitched" the 690 photos together and measured the "redshift" to find the oldest dot in the mosaic.

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So, where is the oldest thing seen so far in the sky?

If you follow the insets, start with the whole mosaic (upper left middle), take square outta that (lower left), then take a square outta that and you get Maisies's Galaxy (fuzzy red dot lower right).

Take the same mosaic, and what else does it show. I put the orange circles on things the scientists saw, as they show at the bottom 6 insets of the photo, with legend for the inserts under the pic:

source: CEERS

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  1. A spiral galaxy at a redshift of z = 0.16. The resolution of the JWST imaging reveals a large number of blue star-forming clumps and star clusters.
  2. A chance alignment of a bright galaxy at a redshift z = 1.05 with several smaller galaxies forming an arc in the sky when viewed from JWST.
  3. An interacting system of galaxies at z = 1.4, dubbed the “Space Kraken” by the CEERS team.
  4. Two interacting spiral galaxies at z = 0.7. The arrow points to a supernovae discovered with these JWST images.
  5. Another spiral galaxy, also at z = 0.7, again highlighting JWST’s ability to resolve small-scale features even for modestly distant galaxies.
  6. A chance alignment of a z = 0.63 galaxy with a tidal tail, and a grouping of red galaxies at z = 1.85.

All that stuff, plus other stuff they are probably studying right now but haven't announced yet, 690 pics taken in 24 hours, within a few arc-seconds, out of the 100 sq. arc minutes assigned to this one consortia.

Easy to see where the giddiness comes from with Webb. Everywhere we look some fantastic new thing .. in stunning detail.

We are gonna find some really cool stuff
 
Having a little fun. :)

What does this young lady have to do with machines in space?

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Six years ago (March 2016) we had a thread here on our opinions of humanity's more significant achievements. One of my posts was about JWST way back then, and now here we are:

The most significant event ever witnessed?
The most significant event ever witnessed?

Something I am looking forward to is the launch of the James Webb telescope. Documentary recently about it, but I have been following it since it was announced several years ago though.

To me, its a bit like the anticipation of run up to the moon landing. We aren't physically putting the flag on a celestial body, but our technology is gonna take us to the beginning of time in the clearest way ever.

My prediction: What this thing can do -- and what we might learn - could change EVERYTHING. We are probably going to be able to really see new planets, check for signs of life as we know it ON such places. TONS of other stuff.


I will save the nerdy hyperbole that makes me giddy as a teenage girl at a Taylor Swift concert, but anyone interested in cosmic science might wanna check it out."

well, here we are going on seven years later .. I was a believe then .. a "true" believer in Webb now.

With a whole world full of giddy cosmology/other skywatching folks, real-time witnessing the first history-making things that Webb was designed to deliver, as one of the greatest machines we ever made exceeds expectations.

We ain't seen nothin' yet with JWST. New earths? Other "people" out there? Who da heck knows?

But we are gonna be a ton smarter and that's the essence of achievement and progress as a species. Even IF we are the only one's in the vastness of space.

See? Our excitement is contagious. Me and all the other "giddy teenage girls [and boys"] in that picture .... I was on the floor though after fainting so I am not in the picture. :poke:
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While I share your excitement regarding JWST I must admit, the thing I'm now looking forward to and am possibly even more excited about is the Artemis program.

Reminder for all, Artemis I launch is scheduled for August 29th, between 08:33 am and 10:33 am EDT!
 
While I share your excitement regarding JWST I must admit, the thing I'm now looking forward to and am possibly even more excited about is the Artemis program.

Reminder for all, Artemis I launch is scheduled for August 29th, between 08:33 am and 10:33 am EDT!

Heavy Metal

Quick Facts

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While I share your excitement regarding JWST I must admit, the thing I'm now looking forward to and am possibly even more excited about is the Artemis program.

Reminder for all, Artemis I launch is scheduled for August 29th, between 08:33 am and 10:33 am EDT!
The fact that the launch has been postponed for the second time isn't really encouraging.. :(
 
The fact that the launch has been postponed for the second time isn't really encouraging.. :(
I was bummin like most people that launch was scrubbed.

Back of my mind though, and I am "a mile wide and an inch deep" on this so NOT smart enough to debate this, is the Artemis SLS is still using Space Shuttle engines ...- the RS-25 engine uses liquid hydrogen.
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The other space companies (Musk, Bezos joints) are using fuels OTHER than liquid hydrogen (liquid methane in some cases) .. we'll see if they can get their lunar/Mars capable rockets to work and/or whether they will have different kinds of issues.

Liquid hydrogen is light-weight (you need a LOT of it onboard, so light molecular weight helps), burns really hot so it maked a good rocket fuel.

But you also gotta keep it at minus 420+ degrees to remain liquid and, as a very SMALL molecule, its hard to keep it from breaking containment (its under high pressure to boot and has thousands of places where it wants to try to get out).

You would think we know how to use this fuel after all these years .. and you'd be right I think.

But, it (leak prevention) was a problem before though with the RS-25. And, they are using previously-used shuttle engines (refurbed of course, but still OLD) for this first Artemis launch.

My point -- dunno if next gen RS-25's and related systems are gonna have better leak management abilities.

I fear even then though, hydrogen leaks (and the thermal conditioning the engines need pre-launch using cryogenic liquid hydrogen) could bedevil NASA again next month or next when they try again to launch.

Hope not .. but ...
 
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I was bummin like most people that launch was scrubbed.

Back of my mind though, and I am "a mile wide and an inch deep" on this so NOT smart enough to debate this, is the Artemis SLS is still using Space Shuttle engines ...- the RS-25 engine uses liquid hydrogen.
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The other space companies (Musk, Bezos joints) are using fuels OTHER than liquid hydrogen (liquid methane in some cases) .. we'll see if they can get their lunar/Mars capable rockets to work and/or whether they will have different kinds of issues.

Liquid hydrogen is light-weight (you need a LOT of it onboard, so light molecular weight helps), burns really hot so it maked a good rocket fuel.

But you also gotta keep it at minus 420+ degrees to remain liquid and, as a very SMALL molecule, its hard to keep it from breaking containment (its under high pressure to boot and has thousands of places where it wants to try to get out).

You would think we know how to use this fuel after all these years .. and you'd be right I think.

But, it (leak prevention) was a problem before though with the RS-25. And, they are using previously-used shuttle engines (refurbed of course, but still OLD) for this first Artemis launch.

My point -- dunno if next gen RS-25's and related systems are gonna have better leak management abilities.

I fear even then though, hydrogen leaks (and the thermal conditioning the engines need pre-launch using cryogenic liquid hydrogen) could bedevil NASA again next month or next when they try again to launch.

Hope not .. but ...
They are using the RS-25 as a baseline, but they touched them.
According to the link, it appears that they didn’t change the RS-25 regarding the hydrogen delivery, but the delivery equipment is likely new.

RS-25 Rocket Engines Return to Launch NASA’s Artemis Moon Missions
 
They are using the RS-25 as a baseline, but they touched them.
According to the link, it appears that they didn’t change the RS-25 regarding the hydrogen delivery, but the delivery equipment is likelygott new.

RS-25 Rocket Engines Return to Launch NASA’s Artemis Moon Missions

that was fascinating -- gotta give Rocketdyne & NASA some kudos on the engine systems' design and manufacturing improvements ...

but ..

if they did (prolly had to given what they highlighted as specs above the "baseline") make hydrogen containment mods, Ii agree with you that if appears they may not have or at least they didnt describe them specifically in the article.

seems to me that while they solved some gnarly performance/manufacturing challenges in outstanding fashion for the RS-25, containing a small, hot burning LHy molecule under even greater pressure and more onerous thermal loads (vs. Shuttle use) is still very challenging.

EOD, they never are gonna really know they succeeded until they try to get 8M lbs off the ground and going 25,000 mph. hence the test launch work

first try didnt go so well. im rootin' for 'em though.



btw. new mill on a test stand for eight minutes in March 2022 over in Heavy Metal thread.
 
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The Tarantula Nebula from JWST.

"Thousands of never-before-seen young stars spotted in a stellar nursery called 30 Doradus, captured by NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope.

Nicknamed the Tarantula Nebula for the appearance of its dusty filaments in previous telescope images, the nebula has long been a favorite for astronomers studying star formation.

In addition to young stars, Webb reveals distant background galaxies, as well as the detailed structure and composition of the nebula’s gas and dust.

At only 161,000 light-years away in the Large Magellanic Cloud galaxy, the Tarantula Nebula is the largest and brightest star-forming region in the Local Group, the galaxies nearest our Milky Way."

Webb source: A Cosmic Tarantula, Caught by NASA’s Webb
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Same Nebula though Hubble .. really great, but JWST in infrared can cut through the dust better vs. visible light. Plus the Webb image is sharper.
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Hubble source: Hubble snaps close-up of the Tarantula
 
Webb at it again .. just released today. Larger, individual pics are further down.

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Basically looking at "baby" solar systems in the Orion Nebula (1,350 LY away) -- what our solar system may have looked like when early in our Sun's life.

The two brightest stars in mid-lower left are not where the action is .. they can be used as a common reference in the two pics.

Webb
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Hubble - same shot
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In the Hubble pic dust (the orange-ish colors) is obscuring newer stars that look like they have "rings" around them in the Webb pic (the reddish and blueish colors).

Those dust "rings" circling the new stars are where the planets will form, as the theory goes, in a couple hundred million years after the star ignites.

Hubble cant see through the dust as an optical telescope .. JWST can in infrared. So, again, more stuff we have never seen before delivered by Webb

source: cnn.com/2022/09/12/world/james-webb-space-telescope-image-orion-nebula-scn/index.html

Excerpt

“Breathtaking” images of a stellar nursery in the Orion Nebula taken by the James Webb Space Telescope are revealing intricate details about how stars and planetary systems form.

The images, released Monday, shed light on an environment similar to our own solar system when it formed more than 4.5 billion years ago. Observing the Orion Nebula will help space scientists better understand what happened during the first million years of the Milky Way’s planetary evolution, said Western University astrophysicist Els Peeters in a news release.

“We are blown away by the breathtaking images of the Orion Nebula. We started this project in 2017, so we have been waiting more than five years to get these data,” Peeters said.
 
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The "old man in the sky" (Hubble Space telescope) ain't through amazin' us. It took this one 8 days ago, reminding everybody again how special Hubble is.

Its a globular cluster (you can nerd out at the link) that from on earth they look like fuzzy cue balls due to atmospheric distortion. Hubble shows they are much more than that in vivid detail.

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Hubble is of course unfettered by the atmosphere becuase its above it. This is Terzan 4, one of about 150 globular clusters in our galaxy alone

Can't wait till they release Webb pics of GC's in infrared. A fantastic as this visible light pic is by Hubble, you know Webb will show even more stuff in IR.

source: Hubble Captures a Starry Scene

exceprt:

"A glittering multitude of stars in the globular cluster Terzan 4 fills this image from the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope. Globular clusters are collections of stars bound together by their mutual gravitational attraction and can contain millions of individual stars.

As this image shows, the heart of a globular cluster such as Terzan 4 is a densely packed, crowded field of stars – which makes for spectacular images!

This particular image came from Hubble observations designed to better understand the shape, density, age, and structure of globular clusters close to the center of the Milky Way.

Unlike globular clusters elsewhere in the sky, those near the galaxy’s center have evaded detailed observation because of the clouds of gas and dust swirling around our galactic core. "
 
Artimis fueling test claimed successful, but not without issues:

NASA's Artemis 1 moon rocket passes crucial fueling test

I believe that NASA has been running with scissors somewhat and have been continuing to learn how to fuel this beast.
My suspicion is that they had been attempting to fuel the tanks quickly and now are dealing with seals that are not sealing because of the extreme cold temperatures when they are putting in the fuel more quickly than specified or previously done. (Challenger all over again?) But that’s my limited education guess.
I hope that cooler heads prevail and they get this launch off, successfully.
 
Artimis fueling test claimed successful, but not without issues:

NASA's Artemis 1 moon rocket passes crucial fueling test

I believe that NASA has been running with scissors somewhat and have been continuing to learn how to fuel this beast.
My suspicion is that they had been attempting to fuel the tanks quickly and now are dealing with seals that are not sealing because of the extreme cold temperatures when they are putting in the fuel more quickly than specified or previously done. (Challenger all over again?) But that’s my limited education guess.
I hope that cooler heads prevail and they get this launch off, successfully.
yeah man you raise an interesting point again from our discussion about the RS-25 back in post #471.

The "running with scissors" analogy is perhaps on the money in this sense.

I wonder if in trying to reuse Shuttle propulsion systems, yet improve them for higher performance (e.g., more power for heavier lifts than was ever contemplated 40 years ago) and STILL use liquid hydrogen, has exceeded our considerable technical capabilities?

I have an absurd example to try to highlight my thinking.

What if we tried to make a "desktop nuclear reactor". Put Three Mile Island on our kitchen tables. Think about all the insoluable problems related to radiation containment, cooling the core, weight, etc. Even if we wanted to, we just don't know how to do it!

Surely we have a much higher likelihood to get the SLS of the ground using LHy as a propellant than my absurd example suggests. Still, have we exceeded our abilities to manage the risks inherent in the propulsion systems we want (need?) to use??

I heard on the news, while getting ready for next week's re-attempt to launch was put in doubt again with a LHy leak and exactly the same place/time in the prep as three weeks ago. After they rolled it back into its garage, did a bunch stuff, rolled it out again .. it failed exactly as it did before.

Maybe, and I hope so, the problem is just the "kinder, gentler" method to fueling the beast with LHy as you note above.

Apparently when they did that couple days ago that worked and addressed the leak. That the answer though? Fill slower and you can keep leak rates under your safety limit (implicitly says under the best conditions its still gonno leak LHy but at a "safe" level)? Got my finger in my collar over that solution tho...

To my simple, non-engineer's mind: maybe its as simple in concept as the other rocketeers who are NOT using LHy as a fuel at all. Dont use it, it wont be leaking it.

But none of those other guys have flown (other than practice runs) anything that could have gotten 6M lbs going 25,000 mph to escape this planet 50 years ago with Saturn V. going to the moon.

Let alone 5M lbs with the Shuttle. Let alone again, trying to do the same with up to 8M lbs with the Artemis/SLS to the moon and beyond.

Got my ingers crossed.

I remain inspired by what all these space people have done the past 60 years and will likely continue to do IF .. IF .. we continue to want to put humans in space. I hope we do waht to do that.
 
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Artimis fueling test claimed successful, but not without issues:

NASA's Artemis 1 moon rocket passes crucial fueling test

I believe that NASA has been running with scissors somewhat and have been continuing to learn how to fuel this beast.
My suspicion is that they had been attempting to fuel the tanks quickly and now are dealing with seals that are not sealing because of the extreme cold temperatures when they are putting in the fuel more quickly than specified or previously done. (Challenger all over again?) But that’s my limited education guess.
I hope that cooler heads prevail and they get this launch off, successfully.
From the link:

That's not to say that everything went perfectly. For example, the leak at the quick disconnect popped up again during liquid-hydrogen loading. But the team managed to troubleshoot it; they warmed up the quick disconnect, allowing it to "reseat," which reduced the leak rate to acceptable levels.

Artemis 1 personnel also noticed a different hydrogen leak during a "pre-pressurization test," which was also part of Wednesday's activities. This test "enabled engineers to calibrate the settings used for conditioning the engines during the terminal count and validate timelines before launch day to reduce schedule risk during the countdown on launch day," NASA officials explained in a blog post(opens in new tab) after the test wrapped up.

This second leak was smaller than the other one, and the Artemis 1 team was able to keep it under control, agency officials said.


This is troubling to me. One thing you dread as an engineer is high risk unpredictable failure modes. When you have a steel beam for instance, you know what will happen if you overload it, you can calculate it. You can pretty much pinpoint where it'll fail. With this hydrogen it sounds to me like it can leak pretty much anywhere and they don't know why.
I have a feeling that with such a hit-or-miss way of fueling this thing it's gonna be a really long time before people are back on the moon. But truth be told, I wasn't around the first time so maybe they had similar problems back then?
 
yeah @thethee. I am with ya boss.

And for somebody at NASA to be worried about managing "schedule risks getting to launch day" - WTF!?! Anybody alive over there remember Challenger post-mortem as to causal factors of being overly concerned about the launch schedule??

I am not an "engineer" but I spent the largest part of my adult life responsible for "engineered" products. I understand and respect engineering principles, I can read FMEA data, I can count to ten.

I too am troubled by the very existence of "high risk unpredictable failure modes". I suspec they have existed since the beginning of time and apply to anything made by human beings.

But, the probability of the existence of such failure modes in my household refrigerator, vs. Artemis, is very low. And my refrigerator isn't capable of flying people to the moon either.

Because we want to put humans into space alive,and return them in the same condition, requires management of inherent risks in the technologies/systems capable of doing that.

Whether risks are lower, higher, same today as they were 50 years ago I can't say. I think the folks at NASA (and their subcontractors) are consicentious, competent people with safety high on their lists.

But, I feel confident in saying if they blow up/burn up/otherwise lose any more humans trying to put them in space, public attitudes will shift to the deafeningly negative. My toddler grandkids would not see a manned mission to space in their lifetimes if that happened.

My point for that hypothetical disaster scenario?

The demand side for human space traveil will dry up. They worried about it on Apollo .. kill some people crashing into the moon -- having our orbiting, shiny, natural satellite up there to remind us constantly what happened there .. and they'd never get another chance to go on the public's dime.

Or the private sector's dime either .. Bezos, Branson, Musk business strategies for human flight would surely change for the worse too.

Commercial exploitation of space with machines (e.g., telescopes, satellites, etc) is a growth business, public or private, would be fine. To continue to live on this plaent probably requires we keep putting stuff up there.

BUt doing those same things with humans in space when you dont really have to, for knowledge sake or to prepare for a possible but unlikely dinosaur ELE or a nuclear armageddon that ruins this rock we live on?

I dunno if society would support devoting finite resources to keep putting people up there..:(

Still got my fingers crossed though.:)
 
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Webb - another week, more fantastic pics. This time the planet Neptune, 2.6 billion miles from Earth, takes 164 years to orbit the Sun one time.

sources: New Webb image captures clearest view of Neptune’s rings in decades, Neptune and its rings shown in striking new light by Webb telescope

Neptune in infrared. Closeup of the planet and its rings, and seven of its 14 moons. Triton, which is bigger than Pluto, is so bright because its ice-covered.
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Below Neptune in a wide-angle "deep field" shot. Neptune and Triton smack-dab in the middle of the photo. Lotta galaxies in the background showing further evidence that everywhere we look, the Universe is full of of trillions of stars and likely trillions of planets.
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Last, Neptune shots compared from our various space machines. In visible light its "blue-ish" due to the amount of methane in its atmosphere. The ring system, which we learned about some years ago by Voyager 2, really stands out in IR with Webb.
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