Water mist "injection" at the breather...good, bad or worthless idea?

And those technicians may have very well been totally successful with their experimentation and actual application to vehicles. All I'm saying is that I spent the money for the kit, actually read and followed the directions on "How to Install" and got bupkis for my trouble. I can tell you this one other tid-bit...I can vividly remember riding in the passenger seat of my Dad's '68 Fury 318, from the time he bought it, every time we took off from a light or were accelerating onto the interstate, or when He jumped out into the oncoming lane to pass a butt-dragger......that car sounded like a popcorn machine! I don't know how many times he brought it back to the Dealer and then took it to other shops to try to get the knocking out of it. In the end, we just had to accept Patsy as she was and Dad would just say, "She's droppin her marbles all over the damn road again!" whenever she knocked and pinged. The rest of my ramblings about introducing water (in any form) into an engine are probably neither here nor there, because as we all know, I'm Not Right! See ya!

I'm so Not Right as to be a Lefty. Long time condition of mine too. Since I hate seriously messing with something unless its seriously wrong, I most likely will just keep my damned lead foot off the gas pedal most of the time. THAT is the CHEAPEST workaround of ALL!

Pleased to meet another bloke who Ain't Right! :D
 
many studies have been done regarding water injection , first off it tense to stream clean the top of the piston and cylinder down passed the top ring , cleaning the oil lube from the ring and cylinder . and thats not good for ring , piston and cylinder life . it does do a bit of cooling for poor quality fuels pinging , but changing the time and curve can solve that issue .

Yes, and given the relative effort in each approach, getting the timing right and maybe adjusting the distributor are viable alternatives, maybe. For now I'm just toting up sundry hypthetical Cost/Benefit ratios. Your contribution is duly noted and I thank you.
 
I have an
Edelbrock varijection
on the shelf. I was going to use it on the turbo engine but it has to be aimed at the compressor wheel nut, low pressure side. I bought a Snow system instead. The eddy system is cool, the controller allows you to set what vacuum it should come on and how hard. Has a nozzle meant to go on the carb and shoot into the 2 primaries

Tantalizing description. If I really go for doing this, I might just ping you for that varijection rig. Don't budget for me getting from you just yet though....
 
On the specified timing retard . . . when the timing is retarded that much, performance should be diminished, PLUS it can make the engine run hotter, which can make the "noise" worse.

Please relate a few things. Model year, engine, carb. OEM distributor? Base timing spec? Which spark plugs? Just so I might get a better idea of things.

My '66 Newport 383 2bbl had a base timing spec of 12.5 degrees BTDC and I usually ran it at 15 degrees BTDC. 9.2 rated CR, but it never did like "regular", even when it was newer, so we always ran "premium" in it. Never overheated or anything akin to that. Factory a/c car. Later replaced the Stromberg WWC-3 with a '70-spec Holley 2210. All stock jetting. Heat riser was usually stuck 1/2 open/closed.

On my '67 Newport CE23, 383 4bbl OEM, we put 906 heads on it to lower the compression. Only at WOT did I get a little trace rattle on premium unleaded. Didn't need to operate it at WOT on the highway, though. Factory a/c car. Timing at spec.

Just can't understand the need to retard your timing as much as you describe. Maybe 5 degrees back of factory spec, but not 12.5 degrees. Doesn't make sense to me, given my previous experiences with my cars.

When I put the Direct Connection electronic ignition kit on the '67, with the faster advance curve, it made no difference in possible trace rattle issues in normal driving. I figured it might, but it didn't.

Something's in there that's not making sense to me about why things are what they are.

Respectfully,
CBODY67
 
I am NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE retarding the timing 15 degrees beyond spec. The timing is 15 BTDC, precisely as you've described for YOUR 66. Take care. NOOWHERE did I state I had set the timing back to what would in fact be 27.5 BTDC. HEAVEN FORBID!!!

To wit, I've retarded timing an additional 2.5 degrees beyond the -12.5 specified in my 1966 Chysler FSM. The 383 runs quite well thus, save when accelerating heavily

I run a Stromberg WWC 2-272 now. I had the same before, but it got too leaky.

This tank of 87 octane starts pinging as soon as ambient temperature exceeds 92 F AND running temp reaches its steady norm of 190 F. With the 16 inch pusher fan in front of the Cold Case radiator I got this spring, the coolant temperature has not exceeded 200 F over the course of the summer, and that only because I only run the pusher when it gets that warm.

The distributor is a Cardone Select 843817, putatively as "OEM" as a new mechanical distributor can be these days. The cacuum advance actually works, which is why I bought it. Not bad for $70 new. I see Rick Ehrenberg sells something suspiciously like it, without naming the producer; just asserting its an ISO certified plant.

I'm running Autolite AP85 platinum plugs. I'll do a plug read tomorrow morning if I can get up before the Blowtorch renders the day unpleasant. My #6 cylinder is of particular concern.

Mathilda is a 66 Newport running a 2 barrel, single exhaust 383 on a 742 2:76 rear end. Tall gears like that don't spin tires from dead stops much, but they do well on highways as I think you know.

Let's see what a tank full of Shell's 91 octane sounds like next week. Their 87 sounds as bad as Julio Pemex's stuff. When flush w $$, I fill up w 91 octane.

On the specified timing retard . . . when the timing is retarded that much, performance should be diminished, PLUS it can make the engine run hotter, which can make the "noise" worse.

Please relate a few things. Model year, engine, carb. OEM distributor? Base timing spec? Which spark plugs? Just so I might get a better idea of things.

My '66 Newport 383 2bbl had a base timing spec of 12.5 degrees BTDC and I usually ran it at 15 degrees BTDC. 9.2 rated CR, but it never did like "regular", even when it was newer, so we always ran "premium" in it. Never overheated or anything akin to that. Factory a/c car. Later replaced the Stromberg WWC-3 with a '70-spec Holley 2210. All stock jetting. Heat riser was usually stuck 1/2 open/closed.

On my '67 Newport CE23, 383 4bbl OEM, we put 906 heads on it to lower the compression. Only at WOT did I get a little trace rattle on premium unleaded. Didn't need to operate it at WOT on the highway, though. Factory a/c car. Timing at spec.

Just can't understand the need to retard your timing as much as you describe. Maybe 5 degrees back of factory spec, but not 12.5 degrees. Doesn't make sense to me, given my previous experiences with my cars.

When I put the Direct Connection electronic ignition kit on the '67, with the faster advance curve, it made no difference in possible trace rattle issues in normal driving. I figured it might, but it didn't.

Something's in there that's not making sense to me about why things are what they are.

Respectfully,
CBODY67
 
well you could mix in some high octane fuel (race gas ) for those hot days , i've cut gas half race , half pump on a 12 to 1 motor for just cruz'n . and could have cut it further , for cool nights . it not a mopar , but it had an ls7 type 454 in it with 12 to 1 pistons . and the best part was it is a 4 speed .
P5303537[1].JPG
P5303538[1].JPG
 
Personally if I had such a problem you describe with many dead ends except 110 octane race fuel possibly I would consider a wide band O2 sensor at least on one bank.
It seems you are shooting in the dark. You really don't know if you are lean when you have the trace detonation. With a cheap wide band you will see at the point of rattle what the air fuel ratio is. If good maybe too much advance
Pulling a.plug to tell it's story will tell you nothing.
 
I am NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE retarding the timing 15 degrees beyond spec. The timing is 15 BTDC, precisely as you've described for YOUR 66. Take care. NOOWHERE did I state I had set the timing back to what would in fact be 27.5 BTDC. HEAVEN FORBID!!!

To wit, I've retarded timing an additional 2.5 degrees beyond the -12.5 specified in my 1966 Chysler FSM. The 383 runs quite well thus, save when accelerating heavily

Please see the red-highlighted text above, in your reply. That "-" is what led me to make the statements about the retarded timing, which I could not understand "why so much". Might have to click on the "read more" at the bottom of the quoted area.

My '66 Newport came with a WWC3-262 Stromberg, I believe. A good carb from my experience. Looked to be better-engineered than the similar Carter BBD. I finagled the accel pump for the longest stroke. It would lay rubber as long as there was pump shot happening, typically. But it was also prone to warp the air horn, which resulted in loss of vacuum to the power piston, and resulted in 10mpg all the time. I made some spacer gaskets, which lasted a while before they deteriorated. When the choke was on, in cooler weather, it would suck gas from the float bowl into the throttle bores, which necessitated some fancy accel pedal work until it warmed up and the choke came off. At the time, the then-new Holley 2210 came out in '70, so a new one was ordered, for a whole $34.00 new from a parts jobber. That was in about '73 and did improve the highway fuel economy and general drivability.

THANKS for the timing verification and other information. It all looks better, now, to me.

In general, I liked the way my '66 Newport 383 2bbl ran, with either carb. Perhaps not as quick as a 383 4bbl, but still good. The 2.76 rear axle and H78-14 tires makes for about 2000rpm @ 58mph, which makes the 75-90mph range, where it feels the best ("having fun"), an easy cruise speed. Below 75mph, it's "bored". Above 90mph, the suspension starts to get a little "busy", even with HD shocks. And it still got about 16mpg in those speed ranges.

Thanks, again, for the verifications. Sorry for getting your "oil pressure" elevated!

CBODY67
 
I see a lot of the same problems with the Pontiac engines on a forum I am a member. The problem can be a number of things of course, but start with the basics.

I get retarding the timing a few degrees helps with the detonation - used to do that as a kid. However, power suffers and retarding the timing can put more heat into the engine as the burn time has been changed. Advancing the timing can actually cause an engine to run cooler - but of course a problem if it rattles even more.

First, timing chain and gears ever changed? As these wear out and get sloppy, it can affect timing because the opening and closing of the valves are changed. So you set the timing at the crank, but the cam is not where it should be with all the play. You can check this by simply pulling your distributor cap. Put the crank balancer at 0 degrees for reference, then by hand rotate the crank and watch for the rotor to move. As soon as it moves, note where it is on the balancer. Now move it backward from that point and watch for the rotor to move again. As soon as it does, note that point. Any more than 5 degrees at the crank is too much - gears/chain is worn. Read here: Timing Chain Slack Test

Platinum plugs are a bad choice for older cars. They run hot and are designed for newer cars with their aluminum heads/engines. The extra heat of course contributes to detonation. Use the factory type plugs. You might want to even try 1 heat range cooler, especially in hot summer weather.

9.2 compression is pushing it on 87 octane, You should be using 91 or even 93. Cam specs play a big role in this. A cam can build cylinder pressure depending on its design - and I am not talking High Performance aftermarket cams. Some cams close sooner and have little overlap to build cylinder pressures at lower RPM's while others close later allowing for additional overlap when used on higher compression engines. This actually allows the intake and exhaust valve to stay open at the same time longer and blow some of the cylinder pressure out, thus lowering the cylinder pressure on a let's say a 10-to-1 compression engine to more like a 9.3 compression engine at lower speeds. At higher RPM's this all changes and the "lost" cylinder pressure is picked back up and power/torque regained. So you can see how a cam can affect cylinder pressure and this also ties in with the cam timing and a worn set of gears & chain.

Next, which is one of the most critical, is the distributor timing. Not just what you see at the balancer, but the timing curve. I assume you set timing with the vacuum line to the distributor disconnected and line plugged at the carb? Silly question, but some do time the engine with the vacuum advance connected not knowing to unconnect it.

Set your initial. Then, what is your total timing and at what RPM does it come in at? - initial plus the mechanical advance from the distributor weights. This test will also let you know if your weights in the distributor are working correctly or not. On a Pontiac engine, with ethanol blends, 32 degrees total seems to be the best with iron heads with some going 34 - 36 with aluminum heads. If total is coming in too soon, lets say 2,000 - 2,500 RPM's, you may want to change this and bump it up to 3,000 - 3,500 RPM's by using heavier springs, again, this higher RPM range seems to work good with the Pontiac engines and detonation problems. This will stretch the advance curve and can cure detonation woes while maintaining stock or even slightly advanced timing at the balancer.

Next is the vacuum advance. Is it working and how many degrees does it add? To check this, set your initial and with the engine at idle, plug the vacuum line coming from the distributor into a manifold vacuum source, not the carb, which is typically a "ported" source. A full vacuum source such as the intake manifold will pull the maximum number of degrees out of the vacuum can on the distributor. Watch your timing mark at the balancer - it will jump up as soon as you plug the hose into a direct vacuum source as it advances the distributor. Your FSM should tell you how much. With a Pontiac, it is about 16-20 degrees, so our initial at the crank is 6 and with the vacuum line hooked up will jump initial to 22 degrees - and the engine will usually run great. Again, this is at idle with no load and only a test to learn what your vacuum advance adds to your timing at maximum engine vacuum.

Why do we need to know this? If your total mechanical advance were let's say 34 degrees @ 3,000 RPM's, and you add vacuum advance of 16 degrees, you get 50 degrees of total engine advance when you let off the gas and the engine develops maximum vacuum. As soon as you hit the throttle, engine vacuum drops and the vacuum advance also drops proportionately, otherwise your engine would really be pinging with 50 degrees of advance. However, if the combined mechanical & vacuum advance goes above 50-52 degrees, you most likely have too much and this needs to be lowered. If the combined total is too far advanced, what can happen is that when you nail the gas or quickly open it up, you will get a momentary amount of pinging because it will take a second or two for the vacuum advance to lose its vacuum and retard the timing to a lower point that won't cause the detonation. You can install a different vacuum advance that meets what you may need if yours seems to be a problem as it is.

So knowing what your total mechanical advance is and knowing what your total vacuum advance is, you can then know what the combined total is. Your FSM should give you these specs. The vacuum advance is important in providing improved gas mileage AND cooling your engine down when you lift your foot off the gas or use light throttle pressures when cruising.

That said, I would run 91 octane as 87 won't cut it. Ditch the platinum plugs for conventional type, check timing gears/chain for excessive play, check your timing curve and vacuum advance for their total settings and adjust if needed.
 
I missed the platinum plugs, I agree with ditching them. I naively bought them for the turbo engine thinking they must be great stuff. While I tweaked many things to keep detonation at bay, swapping into NGK's a step colder was one of the biggest improvements (changed the timing map, added a touch of fuel in places on the map as well).
 
Today's "87" Pump Octane fuels equate to the 91 Research Octane fuels of the earlier '70s. "Sub-Regular" we used to call them. At a time when normal "Regular" was in the 94-95 Research Octane range and Premium fuels were usually 97-100 Research Octane. As the B/RB engine hit ground in 1957, Premium/Ethyl was normally 97 Research Octane, so that's probably where the 10.0 CR engines were ignition timing mapped for.

A one notch cooler heat range plug should help with "clatter". The heat range spec is related to the amount of heat retained at the plug insulator's end, which would be related to "heat" in the combustion chamber. The particular 383 2bbl had a plug spec of Champion J-14Y, which was normal for their 383 2bbls for many years. In '72, they went to a J-13Y on the 400 2bbls with 8.2 CR. Their 10.0 CR engines were usually J-10Y or J11Y. The spec extended gap "Y" plug is neat in that it runs a little hotter at lower rpm, helping with decreasing the tendency to "foul", but as the rpm builds, the incoming air/fuel charge cools it to help limit WOT detonation, should the timing be too advanced from the "no-clatter" zone.

Chrysler offered an "Electronic Ignition II" option on some '72 440s in New Yorkers. The main difference was the addition of platinum spark plugs. It lasted for a few model years. At that time, platinum plugs were generally Bosch in brand and offered the benefit of longer change intervals, for a higher purchase price. At that time, price was probably an issue at replacement time, so it was quietly deleted from the order form. That's my suspicion. Plus, they looked funky. The center "wire" was at the end of the center ceramic insulator, with the plug gap between there and the ground electrode. Normal plugs still lasted "as expected", but with access to #7 spark plug being an issue, for somebody that wanted to spend the money to get around that, platinum plugs could be a viable option.

Modern platinum plugs are NOT the same thing. They use a more conventional-looking plug, but with platinum pads fused to the base electrodes. Single platinum on the center electrode only. Double platinum with pads fused to the center and ground electrodes both. Similar with Iridium . . . pads on both electrodes spark-contact surfaces.

In another forum, or perhaps in this forum a while back, there was mention of iridium plugs running hotter and that many small engine tuners were going back to normal spark plugs to decrease detonation under full boost/power conditions. Or even on smaller high-output motors for the same reason. All things considered, the discussion progressed to the point that this alleged reason to go back to normal spark plugs was de-bunked, as there were probably some other dynamics in place in the particular engines that was causing detonation under power.

A spark plug's heat range is the rating of heat transfer from the plug end into the cylinder head. "Colder" plugs have shorter insulators, "Hot" plugs have longer insulators for slower heat transfer. I should also mention that NGK spark plug heat ranges run backward to other brands of spark plugs!

If a normal spark plug has a particular heat range, this heat range orientation would be the same regardless of the electrode materials involved. That's the way I see things, from an engineering stand point.

Platinum plugs were in more common use when cylinder heads were generally cast iron. Like the pre-LT1 Caprice 350s, for example. At the specified-change mileage of 50K miles, mechanics said the plugs still looked new

, as they should have, as the later change intervals were 100K miles. Many later Iridium plugs also embraced the smaller center electrode design, for a better ZAP when the plug fires, just as some OEM NGKs for Toyotas had the V-gap center electrode in order to expose more of the ZAP to the available mixture for more complete combustion and the ability to fire leaner mixtures successfully. Many things involved in spark plug design and engineering OTHER than just the spec heat range.

Chrysler tended to be a "later adopter" of fancier spark plugs. My mother's LH New Yorker 3.5 V-6 still had normal Champiions spec'd for it, as other brands were already using platinum/iridium in their high-tech engines with aluminum heads. The use of these fancier plugs was more driven by federal emissions warranties being mandated to the 100K range, which the OEMs had to comply with, than anything else. The OEMs had no control of what the customer put back into the motors if the plugs were a maintenance item, BUT they could control what was in the engines when they produced them, so they evolved into the fancier spark plugs as the engines also came to have aluminum heads and blocks. Aluminum cylinder heads and Iridium spark plugs might have appeared at the same time, at the OEM level, but that does not mean that Iridium/Platinum plugs are specifically for aluminum cylinder heads ONLY.

In general, I believe that most current Iridium plugs have less mass in their side electrodes and exposed center electrodes. This means that the incoming air/fuel mixture will cool them quicker than a normal spark plug with more mass in the same areas.

As the OEMs used spark plugs with many narrower heat ranges, the aftermarket brands usually had spark plugs which covered two or three of these heat ranges with a single spark plug. Which would mean the replacement plug would end up a bit cooler (not colder) than the OEMs and would therefore be a bit more resistant to contributing to detonation, possibly. I always liked to go one heat range cooler on my motors so I could add 2 degrees more basic timing, which would keep the plug temp basically in the same range, or a bit cooler for good measure.

In the mean time, we'll monitor Mattie's progress with the detonation issue.

CBODY67
 
On the issue of the distributor's advance curves, I'd use a "dial" timing light to check them to see how close they might be to the OEM advance curve specs.

In the particular specs for the '66 383 2bbl, I was somewhat impressed when I looked at them, back then, to see that the total mechanical advance was right at the desired 38 degrees total, including the base timing spec. Adding the additional 2.5 degrees, for a base timing of 15 degrees BTDC put it at 40 degrees total. In a time before emissions issues caused the lower ends of the timing specs to be slightly "slower" with less initial base timing, but with "faster" higher rpm advance rates so the total would still be where it needed to be for best power with available fuels.

The Mopar Perf kit distributor has the faster curve that's "all in" at about 3000rpm, rather than 4000+ engine rpm of the stock curve.

The A-1 Cardone items might have great quality control and such (evidenced by their ISO-9000 ratings), but that doesn't affect the timing curve in their distributors. If they replace the advance weights and springs with their "stock" items, that might ensure higher quality and reduced rates of warranty returns, but it doesn't address how close the resultant curve is to the particular engine's original distributor advance specs. These are the same concerns which have always been there for non-OEM replacement items as distributors and carbs. More "will fit/work" than "specific OEM specs", basically.

Enjoy,
CBODY67
 
I am NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE retarding the timing 15 degrees beyond spec. The timing is 15 BTDC, precisely as you've described for YOUR 66. Take care. NOOWHERE did I state I had set the timing back to what would in fact be 27.5 BTDC. HEAVEN FORBID!!!

To wit, I've retarded timing an additional 2.5 degrees beyond the -12.5 specified in my 1966 Chysler FSM. The 383 runs quite well thus, save when accelerating heavily
I think you went the wrong way with your timing. If the factory spec is 12.5 BTDC and yours is at 15 BTDC it is 2.5 degrees advanced from the factory spec and it will ping. If you set it to 10 BTDC you retarded it 2.5 degrees and may not ping.
BTDC timing is advanced, it fires before the piston is at TDC. ATDC timing is retarded, it fires after TDC when the piston is on it's way down.
If your pinging at 15 BTDC you need to retard the timing, bring it down closer to 0 degrees.
 
Please see the red-highlighted text above, in your reply. That "-" is what led me to make the statements about the retarded timing, which I could not understand "why so much". Might have to click on the "read more" at the bottom of the quoted area.

My '66 Newport came with a WWC3-262 Stromberg, I believe. A good carb from my experience. Looked to be better-engineered than the similar Carter BBD. I finagled the accel pump for the longest stroke. It would lay rubber as long as there was pump shot happening, typically. But it was also prone to warp the air horn, which resulted in loss of vacuum to the power piston, and resulted in 10mpg all the time. I made some spacer gaskets, which lasted a while before they deteriorated. When the choke was on, in cooler weather, it would suck gas from the float bowl into the throttle bores, which necessitated some fancy accel pedal work until it warmed up and the choke came off. At the time, the then-new Holley 2210 came out in '70, so a new one was ordered, for a whole $34.00 new from a parts jobber. That was in about '73 and did improve the highway fuel economy and general drivability.

THANKS for the timing verification and other information. It all looks better, now, to me.

In general, I liked the way my '66 Newport 383 2bbl ran, with either carb. Perhaps not as quick as a 383 4bbl, but still good. The 2.76 rear axle and H78-14 tires makes for about 2000rpm @ 58mph, which makes the 75-90mph range, where it feels the best ("having fun"), an easy cruise speed. Below 75mph, it's "bored". Above 90mph, the suspension starts to get a little "busy", even with HD shocks. And it still got about 16mpg in those speed ranges.

Thanks, again, for the verifications. Sorry for getting your "oil pressure" elevated!

Not a problem bro. I sometimes resort to hyperbole when some misconception arises to get folks back on my page. If my own ambiguity caused it, then "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea MAXIMA CULPA!" My humble apologies.

I like the 2bbl setup w the 516 heads I got from that youth nigh 3 yrs ago. Yes, Tilly cruises nicely at 80 mph all day. I got ~14 mpg last time I drove her on a decent road trip, but had to idle a lot during a monsoon storm soooo.

I put my WWC carb on a manual choke cable, which in our mild winters works very well. I WILL check the seal at the manifold/air horn interface for a vac leak. Such would diddle up the fuel/air mix enough to cause the rattle I get when trying to suck hot air into that motor. Hell! The "new" carb cost me all of $55, and by and large has done quite well for that sort of expense. I'll rebuild the one just removed or hire an old duffer who specializes in rebuilding them around this town if I get an extra C note for his labor. I have the kit. A good rebuild might just put the acceleration rattle to rest. If not, then I can sacrifice another Chevy owner to Will Weertman and try cold air intakes, one of locumob's rebuilt distributors with the proper OEM/NOS vacuum advance or a low budget mist injector I can install with what I have on hand.

God-willing, this horrid summer heat will end in another couple weeks. This carb does VERY nicely in cooler air. The old motor idles at 500 rpm, then briskly accelerates up to 40-50 mph to get her 2.1 tons out in front of the red-light mob/jam while most folks are still telling their stoned stupid selves that the damn signal turned green. This sort of low-end acceleration and the occasional need to break past a rolling clusterf**k at 55-70 mph or pass some 18 wheeler on a windy interstate pretty well contains all the sundry performance variations I require.

I MIGHT eventually upgrade to a Holley 4412, 500 CFM after I get a dual exhaust setup to allow the motor to breathe a little better. I've been informed such will require re-jetting for optimal performance with this sort of 383, but if so, then it will be done then. for NOW, I need to make do with these WWC Strombergs I've acquired. Fortunately, with fellows on this forum to help steer me right, I generally do quite well. You being among the BEST of my guides.



CBODY67
 
On the issue of the distributor's advance curves, I'd use a "dial" timing light to check them to see how close they might be to the OEM advance curve specs.

In the particular specs for the '66 383 2bbl, I was somewhat impressed when I looked at them, back then, to see that the total mechanical advance was right at the desired 38 degrees total, including the base timing spec. Adding the additional 2.5 degrees, for a base timing of 15 degrees BTDC put it at 40 degrees total. In a time before emissions issues caused the lower ends of the timing specs to be slightly "slower" with less initial base timing, but with "faster" higher rpm advance rates so the total would still be where it needed to be for best power with available fuels.

The Mopar Perf kit distributor has the faster curve that's "all in" at about 3000rpm, rather than 4000+ engine rpm of the stock curve.

The A-1 Cardone items might have great quality control and such (evidenced by their ISO-9000 ratings), but that doesn't affect the timing curve in their distributors. If they replace the advance weights and springs with their "stock" items, that might ensure higher quality and reduced rates of warranty returns, but it doesn't address how close the resultant curve is to the particular engine's original distributor advance specs. These are the same concerns which have always been there for non-OEM replacement items as distributors and carbs. More "will fit/work" than "specific OEM specs", basically.

Enjoy,
CBODY67

I'm very suspicious of this Cardone distributor. As $$ comes in, I'm apt to change it. Money remains my greatest constraint. Time runs a very close second. If I happen on the right vac advance for this ones predecessor for a reasonable price, I would be DELIGHTED to go back to that one. The motor idled and generally ran smoother with that one, which is a rebuilt Mopar original.
 
I think you went the wrong way with your timing. If the factory spec is 12.5 BTDC and yours is at 15 BTDC it is 2.5 degrees advanced from the factory spec and it will ping. If you set it to 10 BTDC you retarded it 2.5 degrees and may not ping.
BTDC timing is advanced, it fires before the piston is at TDC. ATDC timing is retarded, it fires after TDC when the piston is on it's way down.
If your pinging at 15 BTDC you need to retard the timing, bring it down closer to 0 degrees.

Easy enough to empirically verify tomorrow. We'll see.
 
You might take an Allen wrench and insert it into the vac adv hose nipple. When it bottoms out, then see if it'll index with a related internal screw and turn it clockwise to tighten the spring, which should delay when the vac advance initially starts and probably slow down the advance rate a bit. Just remember how many 1/4 turns of adjustment alteration in which direction! You can also unhook and plug the vac advance hose, for testing, too.

CBODY67
 
Today's "87" Pump Octane fuels equate to the 91 Research Octane fuels of the earlier '70s. "Sub-Regular" we used to call them. At a time when normal "Regular" was in the 94-95 Research Octane range and Premium fuels were usually 97-100 Research Octane. As the B/RB engine hit ground in 1957, Premium/Ethyl was normally 97 Research Octane, so that's probably where the 10.0 CR engines were ignition timing mapped for.

A one notch cooler heat range plug should help with "clatter". The heat range spec is related to the amount of heat retained at the plug insulator's end, which would be related to "heat" in the combustion chamber. The particular 383 2bbl had a plug spec of Champion J-14Y, which was normal for their 383 2bbls for many years. In '72, they went to a J-13Y on the 400 2bbls with 8.2 CR. Their 10.0 CR engines were usually J-10Y or J11Y. The spec extended gap "Y" plug is neat in that it runs a little hotter at lower rpm, helping with decreasing the tendency to "foul", but as the rpm builds, the incoming air/fuel charge cools it to help limit WOT detonation, should the timing be too advanced from the "no-clatter" zone.

Chrysler offered an "Electronic Ignition II" option on some '72 440s in New Yorkers. The main difference was the addition of platinum spark plugs. It lasted for a few model years. At that time, platinum plugs were generally Bosch in brand and offered the benefit of longer change intervals, for a higher purchase price. At that time, price was probably an issue at replacement time, so it was quietly deleted from the order form. That's my suspicion. Plus, they looked funky. The center "wire" was at the end of the center ceramic insulator, with the plug gap between there and the ground electrode. Normal plugs still lasted "as expected", but with access to #7 spark plug being an issue, for somebody that wanted to spend the money to get around that, platinum plugs could be a viable option.

Modern platinum plugs are NOT the same thing. They use a more conventional-looking plug, but with platinum pads fused to the base electrodes. Single platinum on the center electrode only. Double platinum with pads fused to the center and ground electrodes both. Similar with Iridium . . . pads on both electrodes spark-contact surfaces.

In another forum, or perhaps in this forum a while back, there was mention of iridium plugs running hotter and that many small engine tuners were going back to normal spark plugs to decrease detonation under full boost/power conditions. Or even on smaller high-output motors for the same reason. All things considered, the discussion progressed to the point that this alleged reason to go back to normal spark plugs was de-bunked, as there were probably some other dynamics in place in the particular engines that was causing detonation under power.

A spark plug's heat range is the rating of heat transfer from the plug end into the cylinder head. "Colder" plugs have shorter insulators, "Hot" plugs have longer insulators for slower heat transfer. I should also mention that NGK spark plug heat ranges run backward to other brands of spark plugs!

If a normal spark plug has a particular heat range, this heat range orientation would be the same regardless of the electrode materials involved. That's the way I see things, from an engineering stand point.

Platinum plugs were in more common use when cylinder heads were generally cast iron. Like the pre-LT1 Caprice 350s, for example. At the specified-change mileage of 50K miles, mechanics said the plugs still looked new

, as they should have, as the later change intervals were 100K miles. Many later Iridium plugs also embraced the smaller center electrode design, for a better ZAP when the plug fires, just as some OEM NGKs for Toyotas had the V-gap center electrode in order to expose more of the ZAP to the available mixture for more complete combustion and the ability to fire leaner mixtures successfully. Many things involved in spark plug design and engineering OTHER than just the spec heat range.

Chrysler tended to be a "later adopter" of fancier spark plugs. My mother's LH New Yorker 3.5 V-6 still had normal Champiions spec'd for it, as other brands were already using platinum/iridium in their high-tech engines with aluminum heads. The use of these fancier plugs was more driven by federal emissions warranties being mandated to the 100K range, which the OEMs had to comply with, than anything else. The OEMs had no control of what the customer put back into the motors if the plugs were a maintenance item, BUT they could control what was in the engines when they produced them, so they evolved into the fancier spark plugs as the engines also came to have aluminum heads and blocks. Aluminum cylinder heads and Iridium spark plugs might have appeared at the same time, at the OEM level, but that does not mean that Iridium/Platinum plugs are specifically for aluminum cylinder heads ONLY.

In general, I believe that most current Iridium plugs have less mass in their side electrodes and exposed center electrodes. This means that the incoming air/fuel mixture will cool them quicker than a normal spark plug with more mass in the same areas.

As the OEMs used spark plugs with many narrower heat ranges, the aftermarket brands usually had spark plugs which covered two or three of these heat ranges with a single spark plug. Which would mean the replacement plug would end up a bit cooler (not colder) than the OEMs and would therefore be a bit more resistant to contributing to detonation, possibly. I always liked to go one heat range cooler on my motors so I could add 2 degrees more basic timing, which would keep the plug temp basically in the same range, or a bit cooler for good measure.

In the mean time, we'll monitor Mattie's progress with the detonation issue.

CBODY67

I think the plug reading tomorrow morning will be MOST illuminating! THANK YOU for THIS particular data!!! I can easily cop some copper core Champion J12YCs or Autolite 85s from Rock Auto. I WAS wondering a little about plug temperatures and different ratings for 2-bbl vs 4 bbl motors.....
 
You might take an Allen wrench and insert it into the vac adv hose nipple. When it bottoms out, then see if it'll index with a related internal screw and turn it clockwise to tighten the spring, which should delay when the vac advance initially starts and probably slow down the advance rate a bit. Just remember how many 1/4 turns of adjustment alteration in which direction! You can also unhook and plug the vac advance hose, for testing, too.

CBODY67

Yep! I DO unhook the vac hose to the advance and plug it into my vac gauge. I note that when measuring the ported vacuum w this "new" WWC that the carb responds very quickly, as a ported vacuum should. The old one was blocked up totally and I had to use the choke pulloff vacuum for my advance. NOT quite optimal!

Again, I thank ALL of you Senior Moparians for your stimulating responses to my speculations and questions. This Forum is truly priceless and the Best.
 
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