What was the last car that V.E. had input in?

[Fury Pursuit]

What was the last car Exner had a hand or influence designing? 1964 Chrysler?

Thanks!

 

[bronze turbine]

I actually read a great biography of Virgil Exner. If I can remember I think it said that starting with the '62 model year he didn't have total control of the designs, but was still involved up until about '63.
I recommend the book if you can find it. I think the '64 Imperial was all Elwood Engel.

 

[57 Fargo]

I’ve heard/read that ‘64 was the last Exner design, May or may not be accurate.

 

[Fury Pursuit]

Yes, sounds reasonable…as the 64 Chrysler design styling were drawn in 59/60/61

 

[330dTA]

It says is in the VE biography by Peter Grist, that although Engel was already in charge of the design by the time they were finishing the ’63 Chrysler and Plymouth designs, he deemed them to be alright, and only made some minor alterations. That is, the ’63 models were done mostly under Exner’s supervision.

 

[saforwardlook]

It says is in the VE biography by Peter Grist, that although Engel was already in charge of the design by the time they were finishing the ’63 Chrysler and Plymouth designs, he deemed them to be alright, and only made some minor alterations. That is, the ’63 models were done mostly under Exner’s supervision.

I just found my copy of the biography this morning but hadn't read it yet, so thanks for researching this .

 

[fury fan]

This book is amazing, I'm glad I bought it a few years ago, it is pricey now.

The whole book is superb quality and seems as if, way in his childhood, they planned to write it. Many of the photos make me think 'how in the world did they find that picture, and restore it to such modern standards?'

Photos of him in childhood, his childhood artwork, early advertising pieces he did, factory clay models and 1:1 design iterations, photos in the designers studios, photos of boats, paintings, and other things he did.

I'll admit I haven't actually read the book, but I've perused it numerous times, read sections here/there related to some photos, and admire it every single time.

It has a good behind-the-scenes story on the loss of the Norseman on the Andrea Doria also.


Amazon product ASIN 1845848632

 

[PeugFra]

It says is in the VE biography by Peter Grist, that although Engel was already in charge of the design by the time they were finishing the ’63 Chrysler and Plymouth designs, he deemed them to be alright, and only made some minor alterations. That is, the ’63 models were done mostly under Exner’s supervision.

At the time (May 1962) George H. Love, member of the board of directors of Chrysler Corp., had this to say: "Chrysler's new styling vice-president, Elwood P. Engel, made substantial changes in '63 cars after he joined the company last November. Expenses in the redesigning operation were heavy because '63 styling had been nearly set by Engel's predecessor, Virgil Exner."

Maybe Love exagerated a bit in order to alleviate dissatisfaction with the current 1962 models.

 

[330dTA]

At the time (May 1962) George H. Love, member of the board of directors of Chrysler Corp., had this to say: "Chrysler's new styling vice-president, Elwood P. Engel, made substantial changes in '63 cars after he joined the company last November. Expenses in the redesigning operation were heavy because '63 styling had been nearly set by Engel's predecessor, Virgil Exner."

Maybe Love exagerated a bit in order to alleviate dissatisfaction with the current 1962 models.

I think he did exaggerate more than a bit. The changes were insubstantial, that much is clear when you look up the photos of the proposed '62 and '63 clay models. One visible change was in the chrome side molding at the waist line. Exner had two separate moldings, like in the Valiant. Engel told the designers to put one single molding extending from front to back. Of course there might have been other causes for substantial costs prompting that statement. Engel had his offices modified into a veritable hotel suite, if not a Boudouir. (You can find the story on Allpar.)

 

[saforwardlook]

At the time (May 1962) George H. Love, member of the board of directors of Chrysler Corp., had this to say: "Chrysler's new styling vice-president, Elwood P. Engel, made substantial changes in '63 cars after he joined the company last November. Expenses in the redesigning operation were heavy because '63 styling had been nearly set by Engel's predecessor, Virgil Exner."

Maybe Love exagerated a bit in order to alleviate dissatisfaction with the current 1962 models.

All I can say is that my "take away" at the time when the 1962 models rolled off the assembly line is that Virgil Exner himself was surprised at what his staff came up with for the 1962 models while he was recovering from his heart attack (and by implication not much involved). This is because Exner called them "plucked chickens" and he couldn't do much about it. So I have difficulty seeing how Engle could have done much himself on the 1963 models either. It should also be remembered that there were big rumors going around in 1959-1960 that GM was working hard to substantially downsize their full size models for 1961 and that too had an effect on what Chrysler's "full size" 1962 models looked like largely without Exner's input, but the GM downsizing was not as significant as the rumors suggested and this too created chaos in 1962 when Chrysler's responses were "too downsized" and therefore didn't do that well for the 1962 model year.

I remember this vividly because I was smitten with the 1962 Chrylser 300H when our local dealer in Pasadena, CA (Harger Haldeman) took the wrappings off their showroom windows on introduction night and I was there and saw my first 300H in the flesh and pressed my dad hard to buy one because I really liked them (and the downsizing of that model was a plus to me) and was also enthralled with the 1961 Lincoln Continentals and their new styling direction that suddenly made fins obsolete with just that one elegant model. My dad ended up buying a 1962 "sport" model that was a non-letter version. But I got even with him (I was a brat) when I bought my own used 1962 Chrysler 300H a number of years later and restored it.

So my version of history in that time period was that Virgil Exner's last influence in design was really the 1961 models and that the 1962 models were too far along for even him to make any real changes. I do believe Engle did make some fairly significant changes to the 1962 models for 1963 but overall they were limited but still significant. The Chrysler 300s, for example, had some significant C pillar design changes in 1963 that must have been fairly expensive. The canted headlights were also gone and while the C pillars were very different in 1963, both models had the cross bar grille theme.

1962:

1963

The very influential 1961 Lincoln Continental:

My restored 1962 Chrysler 300H:

I still have this car and it still looks the same despite the many years ago that I finished it.

 

[330dTA]

John Samsen has a story on Allpar regarding this timeline. Perhaps I may quote him here: ”It was decided to end the Desoto line, and I was then assigned to the Valiant-Lancer a/k/a Dart Studio for a short time, working on 1963 models, and then to the Plymouth Studio, where we worked on an extensive facelift for the 1963 Plymouth, trying to make the cars look longer and wider. Exner was still directing the design department at that time. I clearly remember Exner gathering the studio designers together and telling us that the cars of the future would be wedge-shaped, with high, short rear decks, and exposed wheels.”

Edit: I suppose this happened sometime in 1961.

 

[saforwardlook]

I just wanted to add that this video by "Adam" who is a well regarded historian and overall expert regarding vehicles of the era this forum focuses on has some very relevant insights regarding Elwood Engle's influence at Ford and some comments on Engle's influence with the 1964 Chrysler models, especially the Imperials. I believe it is well worth the time watching this video and all of his other videos are also laden with a lot of insights that are unique and rare in this timeframe. He really knows his stuff and has personal contacts with a lot of the most influential experts in the industry in our time period who know him well including Bob Lutz who worked at all three of the major U.S. companies.

My personal view is that Engle was just as significant an expert designer as Exner overall given his eventual leadership of Chrysler's fuselage models that are among my favorite designs ever...........................

 

[330dTA]

I will watch the video in due time, but I must say that I agree regarding the importance of the ’61 Lincoln Continental design. It was a game changing design. Pure and elegant. And Engel very nearly repeated the trick with the ’69 to ’71 Chryslers. The ’70 300 perhaps being the ”purest” of them.

 

[fury fan]

I remember this vividly because I was smitten with the 1962 Chrylser 300H when our local dealer in Pasadena, CA (Harger Haldeman) ...

@saforwardlook
These names from the past you're throwing out are getting better.

(for the audience, a recent name was Dick Goodwillie)

 

[saforwardlook]

@saforwardlook
These names from the past you're throwing out are getting better.

(for the audience, a recent name was Dick Goodwillie)

Well, I can not be making them up! Here are a few photos of the now defunct dealership back in time................................these would go well in the old dealership thread. It was another art-deco dealership especially the way the inside showroom appeared back in the day (which I could not find a photo of currently).

 

[furious70]

Ford dealer in Waterloo, ia - Dick Withim. Just as it should be...

62 Chrysler *swoon*. 63 Chrysler *puke*

Both men may have been prolific, but man the handoff era sure sucked.

 

[sixpkrt]

Years after designing the Forwardlook cars, in 1970, the Stutz Blackhawk debuted and was probably Exner's last car that made it from the design table to the general public.
Stutz Blackhawk - Wikipedia
A couple months ago my wife and I visited Graceland, and saw the two S.B.'s that Elvis had in his collection.
You can clearly see Exner's influence in the Blackwawks design when seeing the headlight mounted on the earliest of the models. (Just like the 61 & 62 Imperial)
The Stutz was a very expensive car in its day, and seemed to attract well known celebrities of the era.
Always liked the Stutz Blackhawk for the originality and it's styling as I remembered seeing the car when I was younger, and after all thos years, still do.

 

[PeugFra]

Years after designing the Forwardlook cars, in 1970, the Stutz Blackhawk debuted and was probably Exner's last car that made it from the design table to the general public.

Surely the most baroque commercial object mounted on four wheels!

 

[saforwardlook]

Years after designing the Forwardlook cars, in 1970, the Stutz Blackhawk debuted and was probably Exner's last car that made it from the design table to the general public.
Stutz Blackhawk - Wikipedia
A couple months ago my wife and I visited Graceland, and saw the two S.B.'s that Elvis had in his collection.
You can clearly see Exner's influence in the Blackwawks design when seeing the headlight mounted on the earliest of the models. (Just like the 61 & 62 Imperial)
The Stutz was a very expensive car in its day, and seemed to attract well known celebrities of the era.
Always liked the Stutz Blackhawk for the originality and it's styling as I remembered seeing the car when I was younger, and after all thos years, still do.

H]

I must say Tim, I don't know how you can love your 1969 Imperial and your 1971 Chrysler New Yorker and also like the Stutz Bearcat? I thought the Stutz was an abomination and now I have to find a way to get it out of my mind again!

 

[sixpkrt]

I alway liked the Stutz Blackhawk (not Bearcat) design.
I could see why some people find it fuggly, just like some dislike the 72/73 Imperial or 70 Coronet. I guess I like fuggly cars.
Now I need to get a 61 Dodge to round off my collection.