When is a car no longer "original"?

[challenger]

I should clarify that I used my personal car only for illustration in trying to form my question. Like most, if not all of us here, I'll do what I want with my care without regard for what others think and the bumpers were just a handy to use for an example.

I think once you've gone there then it's an original with rechromed bumpers.

There is a fine line and with varying opinions where do you draw that line? I, personally would do the bumpers .

I can go with that.
Oh, and thanks for the offer! How can I get my bumpers over for you to rechrome?

It's only original once. You could be pedantic, and say once you replace tires or belts or hoses, it's no longer original.

I'd submit that tires, belts and other "consumables" don't count. So if you re-do the bumpers, you'd have a "mostly original" car. I'd still do the bumpers.

Well I don't know what pedantic means but I'm flattered that someone might think I do .
I think we can all agree that any and all wear items are allowed to be replaced and not disqualify a car as being original BUT perhaps this does bring up another point? That being a need to define and/or label cars as being something other than restored or original?? If a 25,30,40+ year old car still has ALL of it's original factory parts down to the windshield washer fluid is it original? Of course it is. Is it a survivor? Yup, those two and more I suppose. I really wouldn't know what to call such a car other than a waste of time and money. That's IMO. Maybe these rare museum pieces should not be part of the discussion??
Oh, and thanks for the bumper offer but I've already got someone lined up

I'm one of those people. Where I draw the line is at regular maintenance items i.e. oil/air filters, rad hoses, exhaust, batteries etc. Anything beyond that IMHO is no longer a survivor/original car. Granted my line is drawn subjectively so others may disagree.

Subjective? Ya think? So how many of these cars are around? Exhaust is OK to change and still be original? What about a water pump? Carburetor? Alternator? Headlight door motor? Brake drum or rotor? Are cars that need these things supposed to get parked in order to keep their status? I don't think so but that's just me. My car got a repaint very early in life and I put a new top on it. I'd still describe it as original WITH a repaint and new top. All the other items I listed in both of our replies I would not even mention if someone asked if the car was original or restored.

I have seen old cars that at the dealership the car had damage on delivery .would that be not original any more if you found out 40 years later that the car was fixed at the dealership when new .I am just asking sometime you have to do things to preserve the car .

That's still original.

A survivor car means that a vehicle has come through the years with all of the originality that made it highly desirable in car guy world. Lately, the definition of a survivor has been diluted down to a wishy-washy.

The only point to a survivor vehicle is to sit in a museum and act as a guide line for the restoration of like examples. If your going to drive or show the vehicle then do what is necessary to maintain the vehicle in OEM condition. New chrome is maintenance. Do it.

With all due respect I don't consider new chrome as maintenance BUT I also don't consider new chrome as a disqualification to being labeled original. Damn, I think I was wishy washy there. Give me a mulligan on that please

Again , I am posing this as a topic of discussion. I am not trying to use replies as a yardstick for my own personal repair/upgrade/replacement plans.
My current thought is a restored vehicle is one in which major efforts have been made to improve the appearance AND performance. The owner has made the decision to detail the majority of the car's systems to the point that the car looks more like it did when brand new compared to how that car was prior to these efforts. If I took the motor and trans out of my car and cleaned, painted and detailed all the pieces and parts I removed and placed it back into a resprayed detailed engine bay it would be a restored car IMO.

 

[rapidtrans]

My Monaco would qualify as "survivor" were it not for a Maaco paint job done years ago. Minor collision repair and paint is acceptable i'm told.
I believe a rebuilt motor or trans disquallifies you for "survivor tent" at Carlisle.

 

[pomonamissel]

i would think only survives with just oem replacement parts classifies . but at a concourse car event i attented . original could have been restored , with only oem parts . a car restored with aftermarket parts was not original it was just restored . and gary goers was the final say on that , he even settled disputes between judges .

 

[Fratzog]

What about a water pump? Carburetor? Alternator? Headlight door motor? Brake drum or rotor? Are cars that need these things supposed to get parked in order to keep their status? I don't think so but that's just me. My car got a repaint very early in life and I put a new top on it.

I'm not sure if a water pump can be rebuilt. If not in my book it is a wear item. There's plenty of places out there that will rebuild an alternator, carb or power booster so staying original is an option. I don't know enough about headlight door motors but would make the same assessment. Brake drums and rotors are clearly wear items. As someone mentioned above if it is a wear item for an original vehicle every reasonable effort should be made to secure an NOS or OEM (vs Chinese) part. Brake drums are a good example. I recently drove 2 hours one way to secure a set of the ribbed OEM drums for the Polara and that car is not original by any definition. I just want my car to look and operate close to how it might have back in the day when new. If I had an original car I'd be much stricter with myself and would not even add period correct accessories that were not included when it rolled off the assembly line. My approach is purely hypothetical since the only original vehicle I own is my Ram DD. Ultimately if an original car is getting love even with mods in my book it is not a crime. It's simply not what I would do.

 

[bajajoaquin]

....
Oh, and thanks for the bumper offer but I've already got someone lined up

That's probably best. I'd just send them to Mexico anyway.

To me, the choice of what do to with a car depends on how old it is, and the condition I got it in. My '68 Dart came to me with metallic blue paint and mags. Would never have occured to me to try and return it to original. My Imperial came to me still wearing original paint, pinstripes, vinyl top, interior, trim, engine, trans, etc. After nearly 50 years, I figure it's earned the right to stay that way.

However, now that I've got it at the paint shop, I'm no longer going to describe it as being "in drivable, original condition," as I used to. It's something else now.

 

[FURYGT]

Original and survivor are the same AND different. I had my Cordoba in the "Survivor " tent at Carlisle this year. Criteria is at least 80% original for the exterior,interior,and engine compartment. Minor body damage repaired say from an accident is accepted. However, any type of rust repair is not allowed. If wear items are replaced they would like them to be as close to factory original as possible. As for my particular car......battery,tires,spark plugs,fuel and air filters, and heater core(replaced with NOS)are the only things that the car did not leave the assembly line with. So I would say mine is a "survivor" and original as possible.

As the owner of 2 imperfect "survivor" cars I agree with moparnutcase except for the part of rust repair. Mel Majors has run the Survivors displays at Carlisle and other shows for decades and he uses the 80% rule applies. Refer to this link:

Mel Major's Mopar Survivor Rules

I just wish someone would police the alleged survivor cars as there are always several that are obvious repaints.

 

[Fratzog]

As the owner of 2 imperfect "survivor" cars I agree with moparnutcase except for the part of rust repair. Mel Majors has run the Survivors displays at Carlisle and other shows for decades and he uses the 80% rule applies. Refer to this link:

Mel Major's Mopar Survivor Rules

That's one show and one guy's rules. As good as any I suppose.

 

[challenger]

If ANY old Mopar has a single chinese part AND is being shown in ANY category it should be disqualified IMO. Then the owner, the owner's family, the owners friends etc etc all the way down the line should be shown the exit door. Just MOHO.
Carlisle isn't a real car show anyway. Again IMOHO.
The fact that I showed my T/A there twice and showed my *** there once may have something to do with that opinion. At the time it was a people's choice show. I don't know if it still is. The swap area was great I must say.

 

[Snotty]

Original cars are great. But, when the desire for originality leads some guy or gal to put their car in a show, and it's covered with rust, and they try to brush that hideous POS off as having "good, original, Patina," I want to vomit.

People have tried to talk me into never painting the Gremlin. They love it's body originality. No freaking way!! If I can ever afford to paint it, it will be done!

 

[JC68vert300]

I think most of us here love driving our cars, but also admire its design and buy them because we like the visual aesthetics. If you walk out with your keys for a drive and that dull bumper bothers you every time you look at it...rechrome it. My leather interior is original, but the driver seat is splitting at the seams, the leather is cracking and the foam is now so dry some of it crumbles every time I sit on it, I swear I can feel the springs under my butt. I like saying it's original, but I want to enjoy my ride in comfort, so I will be pricing upholstery work in the spring. I plan on keeping it til they pry the keys from dead hands, so it doesn't matter.

 

[moparnutcase]

As the owner of 2 imperfect "survivor" cars I agree with moparnutcase except for the part of rust repair. Mel Majors has run the Survivors displays at Carlisle and other shows for decades and he uses the 80% rule applies. Refer to this link:

Mel Major's Mopar Survivor Rules

I just wish someone would police the alleged survivor cars as there are always several that are obvious repaints.

Hey FURYGT,
Was wondering what you disagree with about the rust repair? Unfortunately I deleted my emails from Mel that had the requirements to be considered a survivor, rust repair was not allowed and disqualifies the car from that status. The link you posted only deals with minor body damage. Is it possibly an older link? My emails were from late February discussing this. As for cars with repaints....supposedly they will bring a paint gauge out to verify if there seems to be a discrepancy. That is what I was told......

 

[Fratzog]

People have tried to talk me into never painting the Gremlin.

Nice Gremlin. Looking at the dual exhaust suggests you dropped in a 304?

 

[FURYGT]

Hey FURYGT,
Was wondering what you disagree with about the rust repair? Unfortunately I deleted my emails from Mel that had the requirements to be considered a survivor, rust repair was not allowed and disqualifies the car from that status. The link you posted only deals with minor body damage. Is it possibly an older link? My emails were from late February discussing this. As for cars with repaints....supposedly they will bring a paint gauge out to verify if there seems to be a discrepancy. That is what I was told......

I recently tossed the MOPAR Survivors qualification rules that I got in the late 1990's from Mel and I know that there was nothing about rust repair. If we are generally looking at an 80% rule to be original, what difference does it make if a fender was replaced due to accident damage or because it rotted out so long as the rest of the car is original, which means it is more than 80% original in my opinion. How do you define rust? Is surface rust that was sanded down and repainted "rust" that should disqualify a car? What about a half dollar size rust hole that was repaired. Should that disqualify a car? True survivors are VERY hard to find and I think if the car has 80% original paint and 80% everything else it should not matter if the 20% non-original paint is due to rust repair or accident repair etc. Maybe the rules have changed in recent years.

I think the survivor display is awesome but I don't think the paint gauge is the only answer. The factory did not do perfect paint jobs and did not use clear coat. Some of the cars displayed have paint jobs that are too perfect or have too much metallic in the paint compared to what the factory used. It is was it is and again, I only wish that the survivors were scrutinized more closely.

 

[65sporty]

I really love reading all the varying opinions on this subject. There is a fine line between maintenance and restoration but in the end it's up to the owner. I do love seeing all the build threads with pic's so keep them coming.

 

[bluefury361]

[QUOTE="Snotty, when the desire for originality leads some guy or gal to put their car in a show, and it's covered with rust, and they try to brush that hideous POS off as having "good, original, Patina," I want to vomit.QUOTE]


I'll never fault anyone from participating in a show with any vehicle needing work. They may be just as proud as their vehicle as the guy who has a perfect one and leaves it home in the garage. At least they are enjoying theirs, not just talking about it.

 

[fc7_plumcrazy]

Original cars are great. But, when the desire for originality leads some guy or gal to put their car in a show, and it's covered with rust, and they try to brush that hideous POS off as having "good, original, Patina," I want to vomit.

People have tried to talk me into never painting the Gremlin. They love it's body originality. No freaking way!! If I can ever afford to paint it, it will be done!

View attachment 142671

I do drive to car shows sometimes with cars that have tired original paint, primer and surface rust.
But I don't do it to impress other people I just do it because I like them original even if they are worn.
To each his own

Carsten

 

[1Fury1]

Survivor - nothing done except maintenance.
Original - traceable to it origin, ie numbers matching etc.
Restored - restored to a better condition than it was previously.
Restomod - pretty much anything goes.

I consider my Fury I to be in the restored category but not original. It might look somewhat original but it's really not.

 

[1Fury1]

Should have said:
Survivor - maintenance and necessary repairs.

 

[Big_John]

But I don't do it to impress other people

This is the way it should be.

 

[CBODY67]

In the "strictest" sense, once the first oil change is done, "original" is not there any more. Which gets into the maintenance issue. The "Survivor" Tent at Mopar Nats is fully of completely unmolested cars with very low miles that are "as produced" in almost all major respects. But the other definition of "survivor" is a very high mileage car that needs restoring from its very used "as produced" condition.

An accurate restoration can be problematic. On Chrysler products, such restorations don't usually show well against many GM or Ford cars, which typically have shiny black paint in places that GM or Ford never put it (but it looks better, so the owners did that and present it as "original stock", which as it looks so nice, the general public gets a skewed sense of what "original" and "correct" are in the process). But in the concours class at Mopar Nats, those things get counted off for, which is good.

What many people consider "restoration" is actually "over-restoration". Clear coat paints rather than single stage acrylic enamel are usual indiscretions. Many people use what they know they can get and call it "done", which was more common 30 years ago than in more current times when all it takes to find original or NOS items is to wave the magic plastic . . . IF anybody really cares.

In "restoring" vehicles, restraint to NOT make it better than produced must be used. We know that Chrysler's quality control was not what Fords' was in the later 1960s, with regard to panel fits and such. But to replicate those things makes people wonder why you paid to get it put back like that, rather than finessing things better. So this presents the issue of just whom is to be pleased? Those that want a Mopar to look like a restored GM car or those that know and appreciate a Mopar looking like a correct Mopar. Or what the weekend cruise people like to look at (and vote for in the trophy race). Just depends upon which "game" you desire to play. And that also relates to the definition of "original" at the same time.

Years ago, our Mopar club put on a significant effort to increase the Mopar presence at a local indoor car show. One of the members had a '70 'Cuda 440 6-barrel car (original, not added). He had taken pains to keep it in the as-produced orientation. One of the judges asked him why the underhood wiring harnesses had "black tape" on them rather than convoluted tubing (as GM used). He asked the judge what he meant as the black tape was correct for Chrysler products. The judge looked surprised that black tape was correct for a '70 Chrysler product and went on.

In one of our Mopar club's annual shows, in the later 1980s, as my '67 Newport was "original", and a few other people has original cars, we decided to have an "Original" class. Well, there was one older man who had a '68 Satellite that he bought new. Same upholstery as it always had. The light yellow paint looked nice . . . until we started looking closer! The spot repair with acrylic lacquer were somewhat evident, up close, compared to the acrylic enamel the car came with, even under the hood. One of the criteria we had for the class was "original paint". After the officers and judges pow-wow'd about his car, we asked him to move the car into the regular B-body class parking. He was furious as his car was "all original". We pointed out the multitude of spot paint repairs on the car. He stood his ground, until his 5' wife told him to move it to where we asked. Last time he came to one of our shows.

Collision repairs can be determined as there were usually tell-tale signs of such, back then. With rust repairs, the quality of the work CAN be important, but we don't see much of that in TX, compared to more northern locales.

Which ever show is attended, the event operatives can make the rules as they might desire. This can include how things like "survivor", "original", or "archival" are defined. And there can be some variance in these definitions.

To me, in classification, if the observed intent of the owner was to maintain the significant originality of the as-produced vehicle, I'll term it "original". But if more than a few "accepted deviations" from that orientation are made, it's not "original".

When I did the classification of vehicles at our shows, I devised a point system of modifications made to the vehicle. If the accumulated points exceeded a particular amount, the car went into a "modified" class. If it went past another break-point, it went into "Custom". In our club, we looked at which cars should have been what and such to fine tune the point breaks for the classes. It was customized for Chrysler products. It worked well for us, but the weekend cruise-in show people didn't understand it, as it was different than what they were used to.

CBODY67