67 Fury front suspension rebuild

[edbods]

Alrighty, going to try to tackle this one. Practically everything that's rubber and mounted to the stub frame in some way are shot. Main questions I have are, does anyone make poly bushings for the sway bar-strut rod connecting brackets? I'm not going to install poly anywhere else, except maybe the sway bar bushings but that's really it. Everything else will be regular rubber. And are there any special procedures required for removing the strut and torsion rods? Looks like they're going to be a real pain to remove. I saw a post somewhere saying you can smack the lower control arm forward while still in place, with a hammer, and that'll push the torsion bar out the back but don't know if that'll apply for a Fury.

On a semi-related note, the steering box is leaking and I really don't like the numbness so looking very likely that I'll fork out the dough to ship it to Firm Feel and get a stage 2 kit. Stage 3 sounds neat but worried it might be too firm - have seen lots of feedback for A, B and E body owners, but anyone tried stage 3 in a C-body?

 

[Davea Lux]

www.manciniracing.com used to stock them, you would need to call to see if they are still available.

Poly bushings have little shock absorbtion value and they ten to transmit a lot of shock to the frame. I did a full poly set on a '65 Plymouth fury years ago and the thing rode like a dump truck and squeaked constantly. It did handle better but I sold the car because the squeaking made it unpleasant to drive. Just using poly on the links should not cause issues.

AS for the torsion bar removal: First block both rear wheels, put in park with the parking brake on. Jack the car up, support with jack stands or solid wood blocks and back off the torsion bar tensioning nuts. Remove the links for the front stabilizer from the lower control arms. Remove the retention nuts from the strut rods. You then need to remove the spindle from the lower control arm. Next remove the C-Clip at the rear of the torsion bar, carefully disconnect the bellow seals a the rear of the torsion bars and slide them forward.. Take a chalk and mark the position to the torsion bar in the lower control arm, it is a good idea to reinstall the torsion bar in the same position. Next remove the nut from the lower control arm pivot shaft. Now you can take a solid wood block and a large hammer and knock the lower control arm to the rear, this should disengage the pivot shaft from the cross member. I usually wrap the torsion bar with duct tape prior to removal so the they do not get scratched. To get the torsion bar out of the lower control arm, hold on to the torsion bar and whack the control arm forward with a wood block and they will usually pop right out. Sometimes some spray lube will be needed to assist. Note the condition of the bellows seals at the rear of the torsion bars, if they are suspect replace them. Procedure is discussed in detail in the FSM available for free down load at www.mymopar.com

Dave

 

[edbods]

Thanks, I did pore over the FSM to see if there was anything I missed. I just wasn't sure if there was something else that people experience during this procedure that the FSM doesn't mention etc.
I do know that poly will transfer more vibration, which was why I only wanted it for the sway bar bushings and/or the bushing for the brackets that attach the bar to the strut rods, and nothing else.
Doesn't the LCA sit very snug in the frame? Looking at it from the spindle side, it doesn't seem like it has much room, if any at all, to hammer it back and forth.
Gaining more confidence in doing this myself, I just need to get roughly half a century's worth of crud off the arms.

 

[CBODY67]

If you want to feel "numb steering", try ANY Ford product from back then.

"Over-boosted" steering? That was the higher carline GM cars, to me. "Fingertip" steering at its best.

Back then, "steering feel" was about how much of the road was transmitted to the steering wheel. Power steering, naturally filtered a lot of that out, due to the boost levels. With how much the steering wheel resisted being turned in corners being a sensory input many performance enthusiasts allegedly liked, so they could feel how close they were to "loosing it" in a corner.

Toward the later 1960s, some OEMs started to put components into the power steering gears to artificially make the steering a bit harder to turn, perceived to return "feel" back into the power steering systems. Seems like the Europeans led this effort? The alleged KEY to this was a small torsion bar inside the gearbox, whose stiffness determined the "feel", as I understand it.

I was also doing my "learn to drive" education. At that time, our '66 Newport had replaced a '61 BelAir 6cyl sedan. The Newport was our first power steering/power brake car. The faster steering ratio and power steering made it fun to drive. As to "feel", I could tell it was still there, just not as much as the manual steering cars, IF anybody chose to get tuned-in to it.

In our modern times, a lot of people have seemed to forget that a hallmark of ANY car with luxury orientations or aspirations included controls that were easy to operate. In this case, "finger steering" rather than "hand steering". Not unlike "toe-operated" power brakes, which took some getting used, but were fine once you got used to them. I suspect the FF Level 2 calibration might be more akin to what modern power steering feels like, rather than the "as produced" power steering of the 1960s?

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67

 

[edbods]

Firm Feel doesn't have a way to increase the steering ratio with an existing box do they? Unfortunately for me the RHD cars have mounting holes that don't line up with the LHD steering boxes, so something like a Borgeson box is out of the question. Was hoping to have a faster ratio and tighter steering. It's understandable that these cars were meant to be very easy to drive, but honestly I do like to have a bit of resistance when it comes to steering. I guess it's just what I grew up with.

In other news, I probably should've just blasted the front suspension and steering with the pressure washer from the beginning - spent about an hour or two just chipping away at it and got most of it off before the pressure washer came to mind today, doy. Blasted it all anyway and it has renewed my motivation to fix it all up. The nuts look very easy to access now.
The only thing is, I've got the car on stands but neglected to remove the upper bump stops; the FSM states to remove those while also relieving tension on the adjustment bolt to pull out the torsion bars. Trying to push up the LCA with the floor jack, the arm moves a bit, but then ends up just lifting the entire car while still not having enough room to pull out the upper bump stops, and they have collapsed a decent amount, about as much as the red scribbling in the below pic:

Is it still possible to pull the torsion bars out anyway? Or will it be much more difficult than if I had just removed the bump stops while the car was still sitting on the wheels?

 

['66 Fury I]

If you remove the tension on the t-bar adjusters, the control arms may move farther with the jack. Just a thought. Lindsay

 

[customsportsman]

Some thoughts on torsion bar unloading:

1) Try to get the dirt and crud out of the exposed threads if you can. Put some penetrating oil on the bolts and let them soak for a while before even
thinking about touching those bolts.

2) This sounds dumb but be sure that you are unloading the torsion bars with the vehicle supported on jackstands, and NO vehicle weight on the suspension.
Safety here is #1.

3) Once you remove the load on the torsion bars, you will be able to lift the suspension to get that upper control arm rebound bushing out.

4) Use the torsion bar removal tool available from Mancini Racing to remove the bars. The tool works like a champ, and does not mar the torsion bars.
Well worth the 50 bucks or so plus shipping.
Linky here: Mancini Racing Torsion Bar Remover/Installer

This is how I handled my torsion bar removal, and the job was painless, as was re-installation.
Also, lots of people want to ignore that lower control arm bushing, because it can be tricky to remove. That guy is not too bad to remove and replace, and well worth the effort.

Lastly, if you opt to go with rubber for everything, contact Craig@mobileparts. He hooked me up with EVERYTHING!

 

[edbods]

Oh yeah I definitely made sure that the stands were on the frame and not the suspension. I blasted the **** out of ALL threads with the pressure washer on the laser setting. Very clean and ripe for an overnight soaking with some ATF which works really well as a penetrant...50/50 acetone/ATF mix thins it out and lets it creep better. Some say it's better than actual penetrants.
I'll try unloading the torsion bars, I didn't do that because unfortunately for me, the first step was to remove the bumpers and of course I skipped that and went straight to jacking the car up lol.
I definitely want to replace all the suspension bushings, it wanders all over the road. As mentioned before, I was interested in poly bushings for only the sway bar brackets that attach it to the strut rods, but since those seem to not be available anywhere I've settled for regular rubbers.
I think I won't use the tool enough to justify forking out a hundred bucks for it. Have seen others recommend tapping the LCA with a hammer to pop the torsion bar out so I'll try that.

 

[CBODY67]

As to steering effort and "feel", the physical mechanical ratio in the gearbox is pretty much what it is, unlike the similar GM800 gearbox which has all kinds of constant or variable ratios and firmness calibrations from the factory. PLUS the aftermarket items which make it the darling of the circle/dirt track racers.

NOW, the "effective" ratio CAN be quickened with nothing more than a smaller diameter steering wheel. Decreasing the "lever arm" should also increase the effort required to turn it at the same time. Something like the aftermarket version of the Dodge "TUFF" steering wheel, maybe? OR something else that Grant makes?

You can also max-out the caster settings on the front end alignment adjustments. Increasing the physical effort to turn the car as the self-centering action is increased at the same time.
Which is why the OEM front end alignment specs for manual steer cars were always "negative caster" as the power steering cars were "positive caster".

Getting a tighter turning radius probably cannot be achieved. Chryslers, being "rear steer cars" have a more accurate Ackerman angles than a "front steer" car. Which might also explain the slightly larger turning diameter they tend to have. I kind of suspect there is only a certain amount of degrees the wheels can turn before the Ackerman angles get out of whack, compared to the amount of travel available in the linkage?

One other "little trick" I came up with in the later 1960s, is that front tire pressures need to be 2psi higher than the rear pressures on normal (non-Corvette) rwd cars. The basic pressures would be 28psi for the rear and 30psi for the front. This results in the relative weight capacity (at the pressures noted) being approximately equal, front to rear, for the weight being supported AND the possibility of driving 75mph or faster (which is where the 28psi comes in, per the 1970 Dodge Polara/Monaco owner's manual).

At those pressures, the treads wear "flat" on the stock 5.5" wide rims. No "center wear" from too much air and no "edge wear" due to not enough air. Should be the same for 6" wide wheels, too. Something to start with and then see if things work as they should.

Perhaps these things might help you get a bit closer to the "steering feel" goals and desires you have.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[edbods]

Not really concerned about the turning circle, it's a boat after all...comes with the territory. But great food for thought in the rest of your post