a few questions need a answer please

Cartel

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Ok I got a new melling HP pump for my 383
When I shake the pump I hear something rattle. that normal?

the melling heavy duty shaft IS63. Is that stout enough for the HP pump? just a regular hyd cam here under .500

the valley pan gasket
felpro 1214 has no crossover holes. Is that a problem with a holley street dominator?
I got garbage fuel up here with ethanol. Is boiling gas a bigger deal than fuel atomization the the crossover makes? (electric choke also)
does the thickness matter on the valley pan? it says 0.015 IN others like victor reinz say 0.0800 is that a factor? I was hoping to get the valley pan with the fiber gaskets included like the 1214 is but of course nothing is straight forward and the 1214 has snags like no crossover holes. I could drill them right? but what about the thickness they quote.

I would have not had to ask most of this but melling doesn't answer the phone or return calls.

thanks
 
Ok I got a new melling HP pump for my 383
When I shake the pump I hear something rattle. that normal?
There's some clearance in the rotor/impeller that would probably account for the rattle. They are easy to take apart so take the cover off and see what's up.
the melling heavy duty shaft IS63. Is that stout enough for the HP pump? just a regular hyd cam here under .500
It should be fine. I've run HD pumps with stock shafts with no issue, so a HD version will be good.
the valley pan gasket
felpro 1214 has no crossover holes. Is that a problem with a holley street dominator?
Opinions differ on this, but I would say a blocked crossover will be what you want.
I got garbage fuel up here with ethanol. Is boiling gas a bigger deal than fuel atomization the the crossover makes? (electric choke also)
does the thickness matter on the valley pan? it says 0.015 IN others like victor reinz say 0.0800 is that a factor? I was hoping to get the valley pan with the fiber gaskets included like the 1214 is but of course nothing is straight forward and the 1214 has snags like no crossover holes. I could drill them right? but what about the thickness they quote.
I've never seen valley pans that thick and I'm going to say that's either a misprint or the thickness of the fiber gaskets. .080" is about right for a fiber gasket.
 
I have no knowledge of the oil pump and related shaft concerns, but I can speak to the exh crossover concerns.

When we bought our '66 Newport, it had 7100 miles on it. As I was learning about cars at that time in my life, I was paying attention to the complete vehicle. How it was put together, how it operated, AND I read the complete owner's manual. Tempering that with the 1966 MOTOR Manual I had bought (and similarly read cover-to-cover).

After a year or so, I noticed that the heat riser valve was stuck in the half-open position. The car seemed to operate "as new" with it like that. Efforts to free it up with the recommended solvent did not really help. But it seemed to not hurt anything, so that's where it stayed, for years. Everything operated "as designed", as to the choke working and such. No problems with engine power and such. It would still run 90mph in 2nd gear (2.76 axle ratio, 383 2bbl Stromberg WWWC3).

In reading many car magazines and such, I had read of some owner complaints about heat riser valves rattling and making noise. I found that curious as most of them were stuck, from what I could tell (as I also liked to hang out at the Gulf station, when Gulf was the real, older Gulf Oil Company).

That 1/2 open heat riser kind of bothered me. It HAD to be hurting WOT power, so new Chrysler kits were available and I asked the dealer to order one and it was installed. Before the exh manifold was reinstalled, I checked it and it was stiff. I asked "Is that normal?" and the tech got a reamer and clearanced the bushing so it worked freely. I thanked him. It worked as designed, but better than new as it working freely. I checked it a few months later and noticed it was still free. All was good. I was under the hood about 6+ months later and noticed the counterweight was in its prior 1/2 open position and was stiff to move. I got it freed-up again. A few months later, same thing. I realized I had noticed not difference in performance, choke operation, or fuel economy, so I figured "That must be where it wants to be" and left it.

Now, fast forward to the 1980s. By this time, I had become friends with new people who were "into cars" and might be considered "hot rodders". I had read MUCH more and learned MUCH more about cars and such. The prevailing orientation was to block the heat riser passage to "make more horsepower". I could understand why, but also knew about where the automatic choke thermostats were on many engines, back then.

One of my closer friends, back then, had a '79 Corvette that he was doing some things to, but also it was his main car, so it had to be used daily. He had the intake off and also installed an intake gasket with the blocked heat riser passage. Later, I asked him if it made any difference in cold-start drivability. He thought and replied that he hadn't noticed anything. Another data point. I had come to trust his judgment.

When I bought my '77 Camaro, I was pleased to see that they were running the heat riser valve with a vacuum actuator, rather than "a spring". I worked around the larger bracket during spark plug change times. Then one day, I heard a loud clanging sound when I started the motor. Turns out the actuator rod had fallen off of the now-elliptical ball stud, so the valve was reacting to pressure pulses in the rh exh manifold. It was put back on, but it was also obvious that "something else" needed to be done. I ordered-in the heat riser for a '69 Chevy pickup (we had one of those, too) with a 350 4bbl V-8. A nice self-contained unit of the correct diameter that would slip in where the '77 item had been. No actuator needed, as it was counterweight-against-spring in operation. Except it got "modified" as the next engine would have the '86 L98 Corvette aluminum heads on it, with no heat crossover passages in them. Still needing the build thickness of the '69 valve so the y-pipe would bolt up as normal.

I had liked the cam that I had put into the 305 and it had a Holley "28-Z" 4bbl single-plane intake, with a 9895 Holley spreadbore OEM-spec replacement carb. I had fine-tuned that carb so the choke would come off within the first two blocks of driving on a cold start, running reliably too. Spark plugs initially were NGK V-Power plugs, which helped in my tuning activities.

So, at 525K, the 355 went in. I immediately discovered that I needed to tweak the elec choke and fast idle speed setting a bit. With no exhaust heat, the engine was a bit more cold-natured, compared to what it had been with the iron cyl heads, open heat crossover, and aluminum intake. BUT the heater got hotter quicker, so that was a plus! After about 2-3 miles of driving in 40*F weather, or a bit cooler, enough heat had migrated from the cyl heads into the intake manifold so it ran normally after that -- KEY observation. When I later added NGK Iridiums into the mix, it seemed to help the cold driveability some, as they would tolerate a leaner mixture than normal plugs would, although the V-Powers were the next-best thing to them, in that respect.

NOW . . . how one drives after that first cold start is KEY to whether or not the heat crossover not being their works for them. My friend with the Corvette only had to back out of his driveway, drive about 40' to the corner, stop, turn and drive nearly a mile to the main steet to go to work. Hence, little time spent in true warm-up mode. He said "no real difference" to the heat riser passage being blocked.

I would back out of my driveway, drive about 300', slow for a turn. another 300' and a stop sign. Then another 7 blocks to a stop sign and cross-traffic I had to cross and turn left. By that time, my Camaro was fully at hot base idle and accelerated normally. Which is exactly what I wanted it to do. AND, I had switched to an open-element air cleaner, which meant only ambient underhood air went into it.

NOW, as to our Chrysler 383s, even back in the 1960s times, they DID have hot restart issues! Even back when only a smidge of ethanol might have been used as an octane enhancer only. I read everything I could on fuel bowl percolation, back then. Not much I could do with the stock carb in that respect. The float level was to spec, meticulously so. When I got my '70 DH43N car in 1975, with a stock AVS, it was typical/normal in the hot restart situation, too. Plus the heat riser issues. The automatic choke was set as lean as possible, consistent with good cold start driveability, with normal spark plugs and such, back then. Then came the '67 Newport 383 4bbl in 1981. Normal heat riser issues, same hot restart issues with the stock AFB. The current E10 fuels are NOT the cause of the hot restart issues, just makes it a bit worse, by observation, due to the fuel's higher volatility (which is also better for fuel atomization).

NOW, as to "does it work" questions. This is variable as to the sensitivities of how well the engine runs when first started and for the first few miles of driving (in variable driving speed patterns). Even if it might die a few times, some might dismiss that as a price to pay for allegedly better WOT power, BTAIM. We all live in different climate areas of the country. What can work well in Southern California or Houston, might not work well in Indy or Columbus, OH, and certainly not in Canada (except in the summer months). Lots of variability in where this forum's members live.

When I put the Torker II intake on my '67 Newport, it seemed to run better, all the way around. I initially used the recommended/calibrated 9801 TQ carb, but had a few used OEM-spec Holleys in the mix, too. Might have been better on the hot restart issue, but I just did what it wanted to get it to start quicky, as to throttle position, hot or cold. I don't recall if I put the "insulator" back under the intake or not, but probably not. ANOTHER factor!

So, my recommendation would be to leave the heat crossover passge OPEN and working, but block the heat riser open or remove it completely. There should be enough pressure pulses to pull heat into the passage, from both directions, to heat the intake so the divorced automatic choke can work decently well. Remove the insulator bag from under the intake manifold, which opoens up air flow to the bottom of the intake for cooling. Just like the "Air Gap" intakes, Buick Nailheads, etc. That, in itself, can help lessen the hot restart issues, I suspect, as convection cooling can take place, better, I suspect. An aluminum intake can also aid in heat dissipation, too.

Use the thick, OEM carb base gasket, for its insulation properties. The aluminum baffle insulator gaskets that GM used and Holley sold, did not seem to help enough to make them worthwhile, in the 1970s, by observation. Their extra width and length might have shielded the carb from rising heat, but it also could block convection cooling, too. But they looked like they would work!

In using the thicker gaskets where they were not originally used, two things. The choke thermostat springs can get tighter with age, so raising the carb 1/4" can help to counteract that. In the end, though, NO big deal to lengthen the rod in the slight bends before it attaches to the choke linkage. Normal pliers work well for this. Having the choke plate just close at about 68*F. Then using the vac pull-off linkage to open the choke a bit more, by widening the bend in that linkage. A medium-wide flat blade screwdriver works well for this. If too much, easy to close it up a bit with a pair of pliers. Tweaking as needed for YOUR conditions, using the factory specs as a baseline from which to work.

Usually, as the electric choke carbs are received, their choke thermostats are set "too tight", to me, so do NOT hesitate to set them from 1-2 notches leaner than received. Holley used to sell a "Thermister" to vary the amount of current going through the elec choke coil, as to engine temp. I tried one and saw now real changes, but it might have worked differently in a colder climate than in N Tx.

The OTHER component in this equation is the ignition system. In theory, even a very rich mixture should be easier to fire-off after the richer parts get circulated through the motor, during starting. Which means the hottest spark at the correct time, to me. Making sure the coil is delivering the spark it needs to is important, while starting. Having spark plugs which expose more of the spark kernel to the mixture just helps things along, with better "POWS". The NGK V-Power plugs do this, although normal plugs can be modified a bit to get basically the same result. With the fine-wire Iridiums being the best in this respect, as produced. The ACDelco Rapidfire plugs came with "every trick in the book" (later 1990 era), as produced, except for the fine-wire electrodes of the NGK Iridiums. Somewhat easy to duplicate what ACDelco did, if you want to invest the time.

As to the valley pan intake gaskets, the reason for the paper gaskets in the kits, as ithey nitially came only with the 1969 440+6 aluminum intake applications . . . they are to be used when aluminum heads and/or aluminum intakes are used. Keeps the harder metal from "marking" the softer aluminum mounting areas of those items. Which can also compromise the seal, over time.

Thanks for your time. Sorry for the longer length, covering my experiences and observations from 1967 forward. YOUR experiences might vary, which I respect. Whatever works!

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Thank you for the replies. I did finnaly get thru to melling and he had a m63 on the desk. same rattle.
He said the HP spring is .072 and the standard is .067. I was worried someone may have done the ol "swaperoo" and retured the pump. Cant trust anything these days.
My spring isnt pink so I hope its the HP one I paid extra for.
I couldn't find a cataloge for Chrysler at all on mellings site.
I could waste a whole day just trying to find this info. I can find chevy stuff all over the place.
Then to top it off, they just give you the extra spring free so you can swap it on chevy pumps.
hmmph!

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I guess I could just drill a hole in that pan gasket for the crossover? maybe a 3/8 should be plenty?



see what I'm facing is that they want $15 more if I buy the gaskets seperate but if I get the one with both, I got no holes for the crossover.
Why give away $15 if I dont have to?
Stuff like that drives me crazy


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Why? I thought you wanted to get rid of the crossover heat.
I know. I'm unsure as of yet. at least I have the option with the 1214

Does anyone know who makes 440source rocker assm. they say made in the usa.
are they melling or sealed powe or?

thanks
ok they are made by elgin.



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That last set of intake gaskets is for if you install an aluminum plate over the valley and then only have to gasket the side flanges. No valley pan gasket needed that way, but that aluminum plate is a good bit more expensive.

You can get the standard volume pump and then add a few washers under the spring to increase the pressure. Which is what used to be done with stock pumps in the 1960s. Probably some old-line hot rodder publication which might mention the thickness of the washer, somewhere online?

IF you use a HV pump at the standard rated pressure, it could increase the pressure a few psi with more oil being forced into the same place?

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
That last set of intake gaskets is for if you install an aluminum plate over the valley and then only have to gasket the side flanges. No valley pan gasket needed that way, but that aluminum plate is a good bit more expensive.
Those gaskets are meant to be used with the stock valley pan. Fel Pro calls them "supplementary gaskets". Part Details

Generally speaking, they are used when a manifold has had it's sealing surfaces cut or a lot of guys used them with aluminum aftermarket manifolds. Mopar parts offered them for years and there has been discussion about if some '69 6 pack/6 bbl came from the factory with them.

They could be used where there's been some other cover for the valley, but IIRC, those Fel Pro gaskets are as thin as what Chrysler used to sell and might not be thick enough.
 
That last set of intake gaskets is for if you install an aluminum plate over the valley and then only have to gasket the side flanges. No valley pan gasket needed that way, but that aluminum plate is a good bit more expensive.

You can get the standard volume pump and then add a few washers under the spring to increase the pressure. Which is what used to be done with stock pumps in the 1960s. Probably some old-line hot rodder publication which might mention the thickness of the washer, somewhere online?

IF you use a HV pump at the standard rated pressure, it could increase the pressure a few psi with more oil being forced into the same place?

Enjoy!
CBODY67
ok they come with the valley pan I thought it was for aluminum heads and/or aluminum intake
 
You thought correct.
ok great I have a aluminum intake and may get alum heads too. I should be safe on that part.

Now I'm looking for stock style rockers and shafts.

I reading elgin is pure junk, and I'm being told 440 source has stamped sets that are made in the usa but by elgin.
I'm running around in circles here. And thats fine. I'd rather be confused now than sorry later when my engine blows up because I didnt ask hard questions.
I hope I'm not upsetting anyone, I'm just trying to get this sorted now rather than later when its too late and I'm out $10000

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yes I do but I keep reading a new build should use new sets. I guess 30 years ago that made sense. Now not so much. I will have to go have a closer look at them. I got a couple carts full but I think the rockers can wait for now till I'm sure what I need.

Heres what I got so far. I need that baffled pan and a new diptick mine was cracked
Pretty much everthing in the summit cart is a must have also.
I still havent got heads sorted so rockers can wait for now. If I can get the long block done before it starts to rust I'll be happy. Just gotta get these last few bits. :rolleyes:


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At least summit has free shipping. 440 source is gonna be $175cad to ship a oil pan and a few small items.
That really makes me want to give up right there. Theres no way thats the real cost of shipping....I almost wanna cry right now

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