Charging issue

[Knebel]

There are others. In fact when you buy one from Auto Zone etc., it's now going to be an electronic and not a mechanical.

Actually even the mechanical works just fine, just most people throw parts at the problem rather than figuring it out.

I bought the regulator from fboignition. Or 4secondsflat.com I believe. I don't think the regulator was faulty and my alternator wasn't either, but for some odd reason it would not put out enough voltage. Same when I grounded 1 field terminal on the power master and used the same regulator (actually tried 2 different ones) and it would still just barely keep up. Thats allgonewith the 70s regulator, the second I started the motor, my alternator started putting out the voltage. And I had tried a lot of stuff, grounding the alternator housing, regulator housing,replacing wires and so on and nothing would solve it.

 

[traintech55]

Dont waste your time. I Bought this one and had the same issues. Then bought the Powermaster alternator and used this voltage regulator while grounding one field same issue. Just get the 70s and up Regulator, run 2 field wires and be good with it. It is a really easy conversion as long as you can splice wires.

The Early MoPar (60’s and 70’s) Wiring and How It Can Be Upgraded

ISN'T THAT WHAT I SAID IN POST # 57.

 

[Big_John]

I bought the regulator from fboignition. Or 4secondsflat.com I believe. I don't think the regulator was faulty and my alternator wasn't either, but for some odd reason it would not put out enough voltage. Same when I grounded 1 field terminal on the power master and used the same regulator (actually tried 2 different ones) and it would still just barely keep up. Thats allgonewith the 70s regulator, the second I started the motor, my alternator started putting out the voltage. And I had tried a lot of stuff, grounding the alternator housing, regulator housing,replacing wires and so on and nothing would solve it.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[traintech55]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Big John, I just love the guys who come in around post # 50, after you and I have tried to steer members down the right path, don't read the previous postings and then try to make the ones who have been working on these cars since they were new look like we don't know what we are talking about. They never take into account that in 45 years maybe we have been there and done that, and found out it did not work.

 

[Knebel]

I

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

I dont necessarly disagree with you, but I stood there scratching my head, wondering why 2 alternators and 2 voltage regulators plus new wires wouldn't want to charge my battery. Its not a complicated system and I still wonder why it is that the dual field instantly solved the charging issue!? I'm all for finding the issue and fixing it...

Edit: I have actually read the whole thing. I was reiterating switching to dual field instead a buying voltage regulators of questionable effectiveness and quality. I am just speaking from my experience where all of doing that solved nothing but wasted a bunch of time and money.

 

[Big_John]

Big John, I just love the guys who come in around post # 50, after you and I have tried to steer members down the right path, don't read the previous postings and then try to make the ones who have been working on these cars since they were new look like we don't know what we are talking about. They never take into account that in 45 years maybe we have been there and done that, and found out it did not work.

I agree with you that it can be frustrating at times. The thing to remember is everyone is well meaning and really just trying to help.

 

[Big_John]

I have actually read the whole thing. I was reiterating switching to dual field instead a buying voltage regulators of questionable effectiveness and quality. I am just speaking from my experience where all of doing that solved nothing but wasted a bunch of time and money.

If the issue is problems with this brand of regulator, I can't address them. I have used other brands with success though.

Finding the source of a problem can be frustrating and I understand that. Sometimes though, the path taken seems to be not even trying to find the problem and just bolting on an "update". That may be the practical solution in some cases. It may also just be a bandaid to the problem or worse yet, still doesn't provide a solution to the problem.

I don't remember if you posted about your problem and if you did, I would love to see a link to the thread. While you have obviously found a cure, it could be interesting to review.

 

[traintech55]

Edit: I have actually read the whole thing. I was reiterating switching to dual field instead a buying voltage regulators of questionable effectiveness and quality. I am just speaking from my experience where all of doing that solved nothing but wasted a bunch of time and money.

Now if you did read all the post's maybe you would have understood that 1. John and I tried to point out a number of ways to repair this problem, it is his vehicle and none of us know how original he wants to keep his car, or how much he has to spend. 2.
When someone takes the time to sit here and type out how to do a repair, it is insulting to come behind and post a link to some video, (probably by some idiot), (again read what I wrote in post # 57).
One thing I do not do is chime in on subjects I do not know or am inexperienced on, but the things I do comment on, well like I said 45 years working on these things should get something.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Gents - let's all take a step back... whether we agree on people's various approaches and recommended solutions etc etc, the bottom line is that people are trying to help. Voicing frustrations here doesn't help...

Sorry if the above frustrates anyone!

Now I have a question that will certainly show my incomplete lack of understanding about the differences between the 2 wire and 1 wire systems...

Please forgive the long winded lead-up that follows...

The original poster mentioned that he is using a Summit sourced round back alternator at 100 amps. Powermaster Retro Alternators 7019

I am quite interested in that because, from my knowlege, parts were never available to make these units to put out more than 75 amps... but perhaps I am unaware of parts available that allow that... also I hear that parts to rebuild the round backs are becoming scarce...

As well - the round backs are "1 wire" system units, and the later style square back units use the "2 wire" system, yes? ...and to use the square back on a 1 wire system as detailed above (and in my own experience) one needs to ground out and eliminate one of the fields at the terminal. This I've done in the past with success...

So - here is my question: If you look at the specs listed on the Summit round back alternator linked above, it clearly says in the description that it is NOT 1 wire capable. Does this mean then that these alternators are rebuilt into 2 wire units (I didn't know that was possible, but maybe it can be so), and therefore could this be part of the original poster's issue?

Thoughts from the gurus?

 

[traintech55]

Gents - let's all take a step back... whether we agree on people's various approaches and recommended solutions etc etc, the bottom line is that people are trying to help. Voicing frustrations here doesn't help...

Sorry if the above frustrates anyone!

Now I have a question that will certainly show my incomplete lack of understanding about the differences between the 2 wire and 1 wire systems...

Please forgive the long winded lead-up that follows...

The original poster mentioned that he is using a Summit sourced round back alternator at 100 amps. Powermaster Retro Alternators 7019

I am quite interested in that because, from my knowlege, parts were never available to make these units to put out more than 75 amps... but perhaps I am unaware of parts available that allow that... also I hear that parts to rebuild the round backs are becoming scarce...

As well - the round backs are "1 wire" system units, and the later style square back units use the "2 wire" system, yes? ...and to use the square back on a 1 wire system as detailed above (and in my own experience) one needs to ground out and eliminate one of the fields at the terminal. This I've done in the past with success...

So - here is my question: If you look at the specs listed on the Summit round back alternator linked above, it clearly says in the description that it is NOT 1 wire capable. Does this mean then that these alternators are rebuilt into 2 wire units (I didn't know that was possible, but maybe it can be so), and therefore could this be part of the original poster's issue?

Thoughts from the gurus?

Ross, just a little history is required to answer this. 1961 thru 1969 alternators were single field. 1970 and 1971 were isolated fields, "Round back" style. 1972 and up were the "Square back" style.
Now an alternator works by spinning a charged rotor inside an electrical field, (simplified explanation). Without seeing what was done I speculate they had to somehow increase the winding's for the rotor, as it would be impossible to do on the stator. This would increase the amperage output.
I also did not know that this modified unit must be wired as an "Isolated field" to work. So thank you for bringing that out.
Again the modification needed to convert to the electronic regulator is very simple, and will probably cure his charging system problem once and for all, but as I pointed out, it is his car and he must make the final choice.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Interesting - I didn't there were two versions of the round back. Thanks for that. Stators are limited so they must have increased the number of winding on the rotor somehow... would thinner wire make that possible perhaps?

Yeah - the simplified explanation of they work is what I understand, and that the spinning rotor also becomes magnetized as a result, hence you can see if an alternator is functional in a basic sence by holding ferrous metal against the shaft bearing while it's spinning to see if it is magnetized.

 

[Knebel]

Video by some idiot? You should have klicked on the link I posted before you blew up. And this is also an Internet forum where everyone can post, not a "John and I forum". Sorry, but you you have no clue what I have experience in or not so tune it down please.

 

[Big_John]

Gents - let's all take a step back... whether we agree on people's various approaches and recommended solutions etc etc, the bottom line is that people are trying to help. Voicing frustrations here doesn't help...

Sometimes we all have to vent. I agree 100% that people are just trying to help.

Sorry if the above frustrates anyone!

It takes a lot more than that for me.

Now I have a question that will certainly show my incomplete lack of understanding about the differences between the 2 wire and 1 wire systems...

Please forgive the long winded lead-up that follows...

The original poster mentioned that he is using a Summit sourced round back alternator at 100 amps. Powermaster Retro Alternators 7019

I am quite interested in that because, from my knowlege, parts were never available to make these units to put out more than 75 amps... but perhaps I am unaware of parts available that allow that... also I hear that parts to rebuild the round backs are becoming scarce...

Yes, there are parts to make these alternators more than 75 amps. The real question is if you really need that much, but that's another subject.

As well - the round backs are "1 wire" system units, and the later style square back units use the "2 wire" system, yes? ...and to use the square back on a 1 wire system as detailed above (and in my own experience) one needs to ground out and eliminate one of the fields at the terminal. This I've done in the past with success...

So - here is my question: If you look at the specs listed on the Summit round back alternator linked above, it clearly says in the description that it is NOT 1 wire capable. Does this mean then that these alternators are rebuilt into 2 wire units (I didn't know that was possible, but maybe it can be so), and therefore could this be part of the original poster's issue?

Thoughts from the gurus?

I think there's also some other confusion here. There are "one wire" alternators that are being sold. This is an alternator with the regulator built in. They are usually GM units, but I have seen similar in a Mopar style. We aren't discussing those here.

The pre 1970 alternator uses two wires. One is simply a wire that goes from the alternator to the battery. This provides current to charge the battery. The other is the field connection. This comes from the regulator, is a plus voltage and is there to tell the alternator when to charge. (simplified explanation). The field has plus voltage on one end and minus voltage (ground) on the other. The minus connection is done internally.

The post 1970 alternator uses three wires. One to charge the battery, same as the pre 70. The other two are field connections. Here is where the difference comes in. At one end of the field is plus voltage. Instead of coming from the regulator, this is just a simple battery field. Now you still have to tell the alternator when to charge and that is the regulator's job. While the pre 70 uses plus voltage from the regulator, the post 70 uses negative voltage from the regulator. Think of it as actually just reversing the connections.

When you put a post 70 alternator with two field connections in a pre 70 car, you have to do one of two things. Either you have to wire the car for a post 70 regulator and provide plus battery voltage to the field OR you can just very simply ground one field connection (doesn't matter which) and you've now just made the field use plus voltage to tell the alternator when to charge.

Now... Square back v. Round back. There are no functional differences except all the square backs have two field connections. Pre 70 round backs will have one and post 70 will have two. The difference is the "square back" has a diode bridge that bolts in. The round back has to press the diode in.

The alternator generates AC voltage. Since the cars run on DC voltage, the diodes (again simplified) have the job of making AC voltage into DC. Hence the name "ALTERnator" for alternate current.

Alternators came into use in the very early sixties. Prior to that, you had to use a DC generator. These were big and heavy, but they did their jobs. The alternator came along and was lighter, used less space and drew less power.

I hope this helps... and didn't confuse you more.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

My wife says I'm ALWAYS confused...

 

[Big_John]

My wife says I'm ALWAYS confused...

Wow! My wife says that about me too!

 

[Big_John]

parts were never available to make these units to put out more than 75 amps...

Here ya go... Chrysler Dodge Alternator Repair, High Output Kits

Good comments on alternators on the bottom of the page too!

FWIW, alternators are pretty easy to work on. The only hard part is getting the pulley off and you can change out the brushes and diodes without doing that.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Very cool! Thanks for that!