Condensation problems STILL!

[darth_linux]

Hey guys, I'm still battling too much condensation inside my '66 Newport.

To recap - it's parked outdoors, on a concrete pad, under a cloth car cover. There is no roof over the car. Outdoor temperatures are hovering between 25F and 35F with occasional rain and snow.

I think the car cover is making things worse. I think it holds the heat in the car from what little daytime sunlight/heat we get right now. I rolled the windows half way down, bought 2 of the Damp-Rid moisture things, one for the trunk, one for the interior, and water is still literally just dripping from the headliner and is all along the perimeter of the headliner trim. The Damp-Rid things don't seem to be doing much.

The inside of the trunk lid is also soaking wet and dripping onto the trunk carpet.

I think this has been an issue with the car for a very long time, because when I got it, all of the interior chrome pieces had surface rust, and the painted metal trim for the A and B pillars also showed signs of rust at the bottom of each piece. The sun visor brackets were rusty, as was the rear view mirror. I remember when I first brought the car home last January, I thought there was a roof leak, but it was actually condensation building up on the headliner.

For whatever reason, this car seems to hold the moisture in.

My question for your at this moment is: should I take the car cover OFF and just let the car sit in the open, with the wing windows cracked for air flow? I'm thinking this will help keep the interior as cold as the exterior.

Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom.

 

[sprice]

Are you loosing coolant? Perhaps the heater core is leaking under the carpet undetected. Is it humid all the time, after a drive or just sitting for a few days? How is the trunk? Trunk seal gone bad and letting water in?

Not sure of this model but I am reassembling my 68' 300 taillights and had to retrieve some parts from my parts bin. Did not realize there was a gasket at the back of the light assembly to keep moisture out of the trunk. Gasket is 1/2" thick that surrounds the are where the light sockets enter the assembly. Makes sense water could enter through this area.

A thought.

 

[darth_linux]

Are you loosing coolant? Perhaps the heater core is leaking under the carpet undetected. Is it humid all the time, after a drive or just sitting for a few days? How is the trunk? Trunk seal gone bad and letting water in?

Not sure of this model but I am reassembling my 68' 300 taillights and had to retrieve some parts from my parts bin. Did not realize there was a gasket at the back of the light assembly to keep moisture out of the trunk. Gasket is 1/2" thick that surrounds the are where the light sockets enter the assembly. Makes sense water could enter through this area.

A thought.

The car isn't being driven right now. It's not losing coolant. Eastern Washington has a pretty dry climate, but we do have a lot of snow when it's below 32, and a lot of rain when it's below 50. As I mentioned, the condensation is out of control inside the trunk as well, yet the trunk seal is relatively new and seals effectively from water intrusion when washing the car for example.

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[1966newport]

is leaking some where

 

[darth_linux]

is leaking some where

leaking through a car cover into the trunk and passenger compartment? I don't think so . . .

 

[1966newport]

if keep it outside you are going to have no floors

 

[darth_linux]

if keep it outside you are going to have no floors

yes, that's my concern. It's supposed to be a short, mild winter this year, and I'm working on a better solution for next year, but for right now, I'm just trying to stop the condensation buildup.

 

[livininharrow]

i would try what you suggested in leaving the cover off. you have nothing to lose. the cover must be trapping any moisture in. too nice a car to let that go on.

 

[MoPar~Man]

Here's a bullet-proof answer that will stop the condensation.

Run a de-humidifier in the car for a few days. You have to dry out the interior. That is very bad that condensation forms on the head liner. I can't imagine the atmospheric conditions where that can happen. It's like being in a tropical rainforest during the day, then cooling down to almost freezing at night.

Can you run a power cord to the car? Find a thin / flat cord to run into the car through a door or window frame and sit a de-humidifier on the seat, maybe on top of a board.

If you can dry out the interior, the air and all fabrics, seats, carpet, then close up the car good and tight. It might be too impractical to remove the rear seat seat-back but allowing the trunk air to circulate into the cabin during de-humidification would be good.

Leave the de-humidifier in the car from now until you start driving the car again, run it 1 day every week or two.

I've played around with ESP8266 wifi modules with temperature and humidity sensors, running tasmota. Very cheap way to wirelessly monitor ambient conditions. This would be a great application for that sort of gizmo, to actual document and log the conditions inside the car over time. One module in the car, one outside maybe under the hood. Find out what's really going on.

But still - get the de-humidifier.

Then cover the car with plastic. Not a fabric car cover. Or put the plastic (sheet of polyethelene vapor barrier) over the fabric car cover. A soaking wet fabric car cover on the car is not good. It's like surrounding the car with 100% humid air layer. That water vapor will find it's way into the car.

 

[CBODY67]

I'm still of the orientation that the moisture is from condensation due to the temp variations. Even if the car cover is a lighter color, the paint under it is still dark, which can still receive solar radiation during the day. Just like white snow melts first when it's over a black asphalt roadway.

The black rubber "gasket" around the upper tail light housings is there to close the gap between the light housing and the body. The studs for the tail light housing had a white spongy styrofoam gasket between their flanges and the holes in the rear body panel, to seal that hole as the retention flanged nuts were tightened. Even so, that should not be a route for water to easily enter.

IF the deck lid has condensate on it, what about under the hood? Plus the hood pad, if equipped?

IF the car is parked outside, not a good idea to be running electric cords to it or placing electrical devices inside of it, considering the very damp environment in there.

On the dry days, when the ambient humidity is low, get the car out on the road and drive it to get the inside dried out. With the cowl vents open and the windows down a bit. Running the heater might help some, too.

Then, as you approach the parking spot, leave the windows down so any retained heat will be cooled before the car is parked and locked.

As far as the trunk goes, might have to mechanically remove the condensate in the floor with a shop vac or similar. Then keep it empty and the "floor liner" out to make getting the water out easier. If the carpet is plastic-backed, leave it out as the plastic is a vapor barrier to the moisture evaporating. Just like the OEM thick rubber mat that Chrysler used is.

Then, start scouting 10x20 self-storage spaces you can park the car in until spring happens. In such a place, no way for the sun's UV radiation to reach the paint to warm it. Might be a bit pricey, though, but if it saves the car in those few months it'll be in there, it might be worth it.

IF the heater core was seeping, it would put an antifreeze smell into the car, with the rh frt footwell being where the drips would be. Not to mention the drips which would accumulate on the seam where the halves of the hvac case meet. NOR the slimy haze the vapors would put on the inner surface of the windshield.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[carguy300]

When bought my first 68, it stayed in the non insulated garage, concrete floor. The first winter it sat in there windows were opened some to keep staleness out but did notice on warmer days my concrete slab would sweat which caused inside of trunk and bottom of car to sweat also. Nothing inside though. I have heard of people in new york where I grew up that would park cars on carpet on the slab or store them parked on wood 2x8's to keep off the concrete. Ive never used a car cover. My brother and I looked at a 70 Dodge RT one time in upstate ny that had been under a cover for 2 yrs and rusted bad, the owner had a hard time selling it. I dont know if thats an issue with yours or not but I hope you can solve it! Thats to nice a car.

 

[CBODY67]

When concrete is poured, if a vapor barrier is under the re-bar, no floor sweat issues.

 

[carguy300]

Just an experience I went through with moisture. I cant imagine having to shop vac dry my trunk everytime my car sat awhile.

 

[Boydsdodge]

There must be a large amount of water trapped in your car. Can you get a reading on the air humidity level? In my shop right now my meter is showing 29%, dry. Even at that dry level if I parked a car with wet carpet and closed it up, it would be like a green house with moisture condensing on cold surface, recycling round and round until the moisture is removed. Can you get your car into a dry garage for a few day and run a dehumidifier with all doors and windows open? When I have had to park on dirt floor, I will lay down vapour barrier larger than the foot print of car. I have also covered vapour barrier with gravel if its a long term parking spot.

 

[MoPar~Man]

You can run a power cord to the car outside but don't have to keep it plugged into power at the house. Put it on a timer that will give it power for 4 - 6 continuous hours and then go off, do that once a week. Initially I'd have the de-humidifier run continuously for 1 or 2 days, then empty the water and then put it on a schedule. How many people power christmas lights outside? What problems to you ever have with power cords and snow/rain?

Advice to tell someone to drive the car every so often is little use when you might have taken the car off insurance for the winter, or taken the battery out.

 

[Not Right]

Just my thoughts. I'm no Guru...Wow, there's a lot to address here. I have had lots of experience with this sort of issue. Don't know where to start...with a concrete slab (visqueened or not), outer car body, inner car body, a garden shovel...a lawn mower....what ever. When it is chilled, then warmed relatively quickly, as the weather does, condensation IS going to form on the surfaces...unless you are in a very low to no Humidity condition. With a good flow of air across the surfaces of these objects, the condensation is going to have a chance to more quickly evaporate...no breeze to carry away moisture results in less evaporation. Less evap, more collection, then running drips and eventual puddles.

DeHumidifier inside of the car vs. the risk of a power cord to the car. Dehumidifier wins in my book. A good Outdoor 14/3 is more than sufficient. Just take care of how you route it across the porch, or yard. Don't run it through the dog pen or set it up so the wife trips over it.., etc. etc. Also, there's enough give in the doorseal to allow the cord to sneak into the inside of the cabin. Just take your time and find the best spot to sneak it in. Next is to position the Dehumidifier in a vertical position, as true vertical as possible, so it drips from the coil into the collector bucket properly. If putting it on a floor board, I suggest raising it up on small blocks so as not to smother the carpet beneath it.., then slightly change its location from time to time. You will be amazed at the amount of water contained in your car, no doubt. If you can get a "full-sized" dehumidifier in there , great. If not, they do make a small one that runs on 110V. It's about the 1.5 times the size of a shoebox, with a pretty small collector tank which needs emptying at least once every other day (in my experience). About the power cord....I mean, you would run a cord to the car for a battery charger....right?

Car covers...to breathe or not to breathe, permeable or non permeable. Keep the water from contacting the car be it rain or snow or fog...or worry about the cover acting as tent, capturing rising (Evaporated!) ground moisture from below on the inside of the cover. You can't just worry about the one (and succeed)...you've got to address both.

If the car has got to be outside and on the ground...I can't think of anything better than a concrete pad. Gravel is no better than parking it on grass/dirt. Tons of moisture come up from the ground. Concrete will severely limit the amount of moisture approaching the under side of the vehicle. Yes, you can even put HF Tarp over the concrete before you park on it, and it will add protection. But remember, if the pad gets cold, and then warm.., it's going to sweat. Period. (as will everything else). [I have also had great results by tarping the grass, then parking the trailer (with the car on it) on the Tarp. Use HF Tent Stakes]

The cover; my experience tells me 100% Waterproof is much better than a "Breeeethinggg" cover. If you want Breeeethingggg, just throw a sheet over the car. If you do everything you can to limit the moisture coming "UP" at the car, from down below, you will limit the amount that the catches under the cover, and with the dehumidifier working to keep everything beneath the cover dryer....well, you'll be doing almost all that you can do.

Almost, but not quite. You COULD put the car on a trailer and build a Conestoga over it....or you could buy an enclosed trailer...but, until that car is housed in a heated garage, you will always fight moisture to a greater or lesser extent. Luckily, in your case, you have room for lots of improvement.

 

[CBODY67]

For clarification, running the power cord can be a security issue if the vehicle resides in a multi-family living situation rather than on its own plot of land. Just as leaving the window down without the car cover on the car would be. Certainly the wire gauge of the extension cord of 100 ft or so is important, too. As would be the robustness of the insulation on the extension cord.

Happy Holidays!
CBODY67

 

[Not Right]

How you say...? Too Shay, my friend. I never thought of having to deal with anything other than a private residence/secure neighborhood scenario. You're right. Also, about the concrete...I forgot to add that your right again; a basement floor that has the visqueen (I can't spell, either) beneath the concrete is such a miracle of wonders. No rusted feet on the washer or dryer.., or any other metallic object in contact with the basement floor. Without plastic beneath the concrete, every that touches the floor will rust. [This presupposes no water/moisture from the walls.]
Merry Christmas to All!

 

[MoPar~Man]

In my basement I have a cellar that is under and runs the full length house front portch. It shares the same concrete floor as the basement, it's essentially a concrete box (floor, walls, ceiling) with a single door connecting it to the basement. This door has a pretty good seal, there is a vent about the size of a shoe box that I sometimes stuff with insulation if I don't want outside air exchange. So 50 ft x 5 ft x 6 ft is the size of this box. There is NEVER any water leakage in the walls or floor, never any standing water.

I used on-line calculators to figure out how much water a given volume of air can contain, given the temp and humidity of the air. This was in the summer, the answer was about 1 liter. I figured the concrete walls and floor, in direct contact with soil, would not be much of a source of water vapor ingress. There is no insulation or plastic barrier as far as I know, house built in 1976.

I cleaned up, oiled, and started a very old de-humidifier that probably dates to the 1980's. It has a full-finned copper condenser (not a coil of aluminum tubing). After a few minutes of running, the condenser was so cold I could not keep my hand on it.

In the cellar, the dehumidifier ran for a few weeks before the fan bearing gummed up so I stopped the experiment, but I pulled probably 5+ liters out of cellar. I was stunned at how much water I was pulling out of the air of this relatively small space. I had a cheap battery powered LCD humidity meter, it read from about 55% before to about 30 - 35% at the lowest. Accuracy unknown, but it did feel a lot drier in there.

My take away: A LOT more water vapor passes from the ground through concrete than you think is possible.

 

[darth_linux]

Thanks everyone for the commentary. At the moment the cover is off and the windows are cracked. Once it gets above freezing today I'll remove as much water as I can with the shop vac and towels. Going to procure a small dehumidifier today. I've got the cowl vents open and the windows cracked for now.

No heater core leaks. No leaks of any kind except a little bit through the front windows when I wash the car. They are getting new seals and sweeps next summer, so that problem should go away.

It's just so weird with this car. Even back in October when I was still driving it a few times a week but it was starting to get cold at night, as soon as the sun went down, the inside of the windows would almost immediately fog up. NONE of any car I ever owned over the last 35 years has ever exhibited this behavior - just this Newport. My van stays probably 45-50 inside when it's 15F outside and snowing. No fog on the windows or condensation in the car, and it gets parked on the street. Same with all of the other cars I've owned. This beauty just seems to have a ventilation problem or something . . .

Anyway, I'll post an update once I've gotten a wrangle on the problem. Like I said earlier, I think this has been going on for a LONG time judging by the rust that I had to remove from all interior chrome pieces, and headliner trim pieces that are painted, but rusty towards the bottom. I'm just hoping my headliner survives this . . .