Driveline noise/drone/vibration

[Big_John]

I'm having a bit of an issue with a driveline noise. The car is a '65 Chrysler 300L. Auto trans, 413 engine.

It has the driveshaft with a constant velocity double u-joint at the front with a single u-joint at the rear. It does not have the "ball and trunnion" driveshaft you see on some cars. It also has 3.23 gears.

Looks like this:

Here's the issue... Up to about 52 MPH it's smooth. Over that, it gets a this noise that is kind of a rumble with a slight vibration. Coast and acceleration is noisy, but get it in that sweet spot were it not doing either and it quiets down. This seems to vary in noise a bit, but the 52 MPH is pretty much where it starts. It disappears at faster speeds, anything over around 65 MPH.

I had some rear noise when I bought the car. I replaced all the bearings in the rear, axle, pinion and carrier bearings. The sure-grip was missing and I replaced that. I understand the original rear axle was swapped out a while ago. The PO had someone work on the rear, and they installed a used set of 3.23 gears. Changing the bearings silenced the low speed bearing noise. The pattern on the ring gear when I checked it looked OK and the backlash was set t what it was before, which was well in spec. Ring gear face run out on the new sure-grip was minimal and well within spec.

I probably ought to add that I'm not very good with figuring out noise. My hearing just isn't the best, never was and not getting better as I get older.

My first thought was the rear. The gears being used, then moved to the new sure-grip unit, are suspect, but I hear no howling or typical gear noise.

The driveshaft u-joints all seem tight. I didn't see any signs of missing balance weights. It does seem like this is more of a driveshaft issue. My thoughts are to pull the driveshaft and have it checked at a local driveshaft shop.

I haven't checked angularity yet. I need to get the car up on the lift and poke around with that.

Any thoughts?

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

Tight joints are not good, vehicles that sit unused for awhile can have the joint grease harden up especially if contaminated with moisture from sitting out in the elements (heat/cold/freeze cycle) and can cause binding at certain rotational speeds. Re-greasing if fittings are present may not solve the problem as water contaminated grease can be like hardened glue. Checking on the car is pretty much useless unless the joints are obviously toast.
Those type of driveshafts need to be removed and all joints should 'flow' freely with no binding or 'spot' binding.

Have you ever had this driveshaft apart by yourself John? These type need to be marked (indexed) before disassemble to keep balance upon re-assembly.

.

 

[Rainy Day]

Check your pinion nut to ensure it's not backing off.. When loose they typically make a drumming or drone noise at lower speeds and coasting.
Once that is done, I'd focus my attention on the driveshaft/Ujoints. GL

 

[Blusmbl]

Rear springs losing arch? Could be pinion angle. Also agree it’s worth pulling the driveshaft and have it checked for balance.

 

[Big_John]

Tight joints are not good, vehicles that sit unused for awhile can have the joint grease harden up especially if contaminated with moisture from sitting out in the elements (heat/cold/freeze cycle) and can cause binding at certain rotational speeds. Re-greasing if fittings are present may not solve the problem as water contaminated grease can be like hardened glue. Checking on the car is pretty much useless unless the joints are obviously toast.
Those type of driveshafts need to be removed and all joints should 'flow' freely with no binding or 'spot' binding.

Have you ever had this driveshaft apart by yourself John? These type need to be marked (indexed) before disassemble to keep balance upon re-assembly.

.

The car has sit for a while, although it was inside and dry. That sounds like a good possibility. I did have the driveshaft out last year and did a quick overall check for bad u-joints. When I said "tight" I meant there was no play or slop.

I've never had one of these apart, so I'm glad you pointed that out. Makes me wonder if that was done in the past.

 

[Big_John]

Check your pinion nut to ensure it's not backing off.. When loose they typically make a drumming or drone noise at lower speeds and coasting.
Once that is done, I'd focus my attention on the driveshaft/Ujoints. GL

That's easy enough to check!

 

[Big_John]

Rear springs losing arch? Could be pinion angle. Also agree it’s worth pulling the driveshaft and have it checked for balance.

The springs were replaced before I got the car and they look good. I do want to check the angle though.

 

[Blusmbl]

The other quick and dirty thing to try is to pull the driveshaft, rotate it 180*, and reinstall. Sometimes that helps since the balance really includes the pinion and flange as well.

Also, meant to say if it's always there regardless of throttle position it's probably balance related. If it changes based on load it's more likely to be angle or possibly the u-joints themselves.

The angle finders are super cheap these days, I bought a $30 Milwaukee one that measured as identically as a friend's $300 Mitutoyo digital protractor.

 

[Big_John]

The other quick and dirty thing to try is to pull the driveshaft, rotate it 180*, and reinstall. Sometimes that helps since the balance really includes the pinion and flange as well.

Also, meant to say if it's always there regardless of throttle position it's probably balance related. If it changes based on load it's more likely to be angle or possibly the u-joints themselves.

The angle finders are super cheap these days, I bought a $30 Milwaukee one that measured as identically as a friend's $300 Mitutoyo digital protractor.

I have a decent digital protractor that will work great.

It does change based on load, and the sound even changes a bit. Hmmm....

 

[volksworld]

this is a stupid suggestion, but recently I've had issues with both my son's and 2 in laws cars that I could swear had bad wheel bearings or diff bearings and were simply tires that wore funny...my son's was obvious because it was cupped but the other 2 looked absolutely fine, and the noise/vibration went away with new rubber

 

[MONC440]

One thing I was taught to do was drive the vehicle at the speed it is the worst the shift into neutral and coast. If the issue stays it rules out engine and most of the transmission and you can then focus on the drive line. Have you tried putting the car on 4 jack stands and running it up to that speed? I have done this before with an assist keeping the car at the worst spot so I could get around the car and try it isolate the cause. Just make sure you put the jack stands under the rear axle if you put them under the frame the axle will hang and give you false issues.

 

[darth_linux]

I had a Jeep GC with the double cardan joint in the front position. It made all kinds of strange noises at various speeds and I couldn't see anything obviously wrong anywhere. I thought it was a wheel bearing or maybe an axle bearing. I finally removed the driveshaft and discovered that it was one of the front u-joints. $15 each, so $30 and about 2 hours later I had it all back together and the noise was gone. The double cardan style IS a bit tricky to reassemble, but you'll figure it out! Good luck!

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

As noted above, pinion and tailshaft angularity have to add up, and the hardened grease issue with U joints. The tires thing is possibly an issue too.

Tailshaft bearing for the driveshaft yoke can be worn out a tad too, if it's been dealing with any mismatch of angles for a length of time.

 

[Big_John]

So far... I checked the driveshaft angle and this is what I have. Nice calculator at Spicer Driveline Operating Angle Calculator

So, I'm not liking the 5.4°, but I don't know if that's the issue. The rear is slightly nose down and if this were a drag car, I'd be fine with it.

One other thing I see is the u-joints are 2° out of phase with each other. I went through that with another car that had enough power to twist driveshafts, but it was a lot more twist and it was more constant. I haven't found a reliable spec for that, but I don't think that's the problem.

A thought I had was to change the trans mount before I start shimming the rear, but I'm seeing that finding the right one might be a problem. Most of the listings I see are for later ones so that might not be as easy as I was thinking.

Still have to pull the shaft. (on break for lunch now) and I'll report back.

Any thoughts on the 5.4°?

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

My thoughts are: if it's consistent within normal operating speeds, I think the 5.4°, might set up some sort of mid-range but constant vibration.

If it was more, it could be setting up a pulsing type of vibration as the driveline struggles to deal with the loading and unloading of the mismatch.

I don't know enough about this, but I would talk to a drive line shop that deals with luxury vehicles.

 

[Big_John]

Driveshaft out and the front u-joint catches. The second one does slightly too at the same spot. Let's see if this video loads.



Headed over to NAPA and see if they have the u-joints.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Aha!!
Yoke looks a little marked up too, but I don't know if that's part of the issue - just I'd see if it's worthwhile getting it polished, and a new tailshaft bearing and seal.

 

[MONC440]

That would do it.

 

[Big_John]

Aha!!
Yoke looks a little marked up too, but I don't know if that's part of the issue - just I'd see if it's worthwhile getting it polished, and a new tailshaft bearing and seal.

I think the tail shaft bearing is OK. I inserted the yoke and it seems to have a decent fit. Almost all of that sticks out of the trans with the short seal. I'm going to put a proper seal in it while it's apart and I'll polish up the yoke.

NAPA had the front U-joints in stock and the rear U-joint will be there when they open tomorrow. $75 for all three... For those wondering, 354 is the NAPA part number for the front and 315G is the rear.

I think this is the major problem, but I know I'm still not out of the woods yet.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Keep us posted!

Are you going to follow-up at all on the out of phase issue? It seems worthwhile since you've got the drive shaft out of the car.