Electric Car Rant.............sort of

[1970cat]

my personal opinion is that 90% of this pollution talk is nonsense. like anything else it boils down to $$$.
the air quality in certain cities was really poor decades ago. people were hired to investigate and solve this. it was taken care of through emissions and the air is cleaner now than it was 150 years ago. now what do we do with the experts , researchers, scientists, agencies,etc. that solved these problems. they need work , so lets give them a problem they can never solve. employment for thousands - forever.
as was said above, one volcano emits more pollution than all the engines on the planet. the earth takes care of itself. are we helping, no, but in comparison, humans and their pollution make a miniscule part of the environment.
i'm all for doing my part, i recycle and try to do the right thing, but i'm not going to jump on the activist bandwagon.
the earth has been warming for the last 200 years of recorded history. it's nature, it evolves.
notice how the media aren't calling it global warming anymore? it is now climate change. i think people are starting to catch on to the scams. trump wants to cut funding for all this and the public cried. such a waste of tax dollars that could make a difference elsewhere.

 

[commando1]

This yahoo single handedly undid the purpose of every single Prius since they were produced.
And this is only ONE yahoo..

For what? I ask...

 

[saforwardlook]

In the early 1900's, New York city had several thousand public sanitation workers (mostly Irish) removing organic waste from the city streets. The automobile was viewed as the "clean" alternative to the hundreds of tons of horse manure being deposited on city streets weekly. Many new technologies replace one type of pollution for another. If Tesla's Lithium-Ion battery program has any chance of success, vast new sources of Lithium will need to discovered as they do not currently exist. Does this mean that we will strip mine vast areas of the planet, and if so what will be the cost of this new clean technology? Many of the byproducts of mining are highly toxic and pose many long term health concerns.

Methane and CO2 are produced in abundance by natural processes on the planet. Humans contribute at last estimate something like 5% of these materials to the totals produced. Forests remove CO2 from the atmosphere as do ocean plants and algae. Methane is an unstable hydrocarbon that eventually breaks down into CO2 and Water. Vast amounts of methane are also dissolved in sea water in the deep ocean. The eruption of the Krackatoa volcano in the mid 1800's saw the release of more CO2, Methane and particulate matter that all human activity to date, and guess what, the world did not end. The whole climate change agenda is a means to an end by totalitarian groups who wish to control all aspects of daily life. For some really sobering reading, pick up a copy of UN Agenda 21, they are very open about what they wish to accomplish.
In the mean time, I would suggest planting a tree.

Dave

You make some claims that are new to me regarding lithium availability (other technologies are also being studied that go beyond lithium, such as metal-air battery technologies), the Krackatoa volcano single eruption effects in the 1800s when there were no automobiles running on fossil fuels or many fossil fuel industrial manufacturing plants and how one volcanic eruption compares today, the contribution of mankind to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere being only 5% today and maybe speculate on the effects of rain deforestation and its effects on removing CO2 from the atmosphere as we go forward. There are a lot of claims, but no citations that would be helpful to validate the claims, as contained in most professional papers if readers are expected to believe them.

 

[jake]

I do not look at the electric car as a replacement but a alternative, It would take huge jumps in technology to make them perfect. I just like the fact that the are producing a 4000-5000lb vehicle that runs 8s. When Henry Ford started to make millions of cars, did he stop because there was not a gas station everywhere, no, the situation evolves. Almost everyone on here has a wireless phone, did they stop making them because you could not get a signal everywhere, it evolved. I am not an activist or tree hugger in anyway, but an improvement in anything is a step forward. I live 3 miles from Lake Michigan and the runoff from the farmers do more harm to the environment then all our cars together.

 

[traintech55]

Ok, I know there are people out there who think electric cars are neat,techy,or what ever,more power(pun intended) to you. But what really gets me laughing are the gullible jack a$$es who think they are helping the environment. Had discussions with several of these owners in the past.......my first question to them is "do you charge your car by solar or wind power 100% of the time? The usual answer is no. Then I hit them with the second question. "where do you think the electric comes from to charge your car? Majority of the time is a blank stare......
Which leads me to this cartoon that was in the editorial section of my paper today...same idea. View attachment 154579

Where is that "I love it" emoji.

 

[traintech55]

Everything on this planet since day one evolves. For every new idea that man comes up with their will always be problems to the new solution. Do I want a clean planet for my grandchildren, and my unborn great grand children, YES, but getting rid of the internal combustion engine is not the solution. Just look at how our cars have changed in the last 40 - 50 years. The new ones are cleaner, more fuel efficient, safer, (except for the idiots that drive them), and FASTER. Didn't someone post a thread about a Hellcat tromping a Corvette?

 

[72Fury]

It's coming, like it or not. Bob Lutz says we have 15 years until it's all electric & self driving. I think that's a little early, but don't doubt it.

 

[commando1]

No doubt about it. The people mover industry is going all electric. That's a given.
For the time being...

 

[Fury440]

The power requirements of the electric car are significant and as pointed out earlier the existing power grid can only support a few cars per block.

Here is the basic problem.
If charged using 120v will take all night to charge a dead car. Upgrading to a 240v circuit, like those used for clothes driers will reduce the charge time to 4 to 9 hours depending on the battery size. The 240v charger will draw 40 to 50 amps. A typical house in Canada has a 100 amp panel, so two cars on charge would leave 20 to zip amps left for your critical use, things like your freezer, refrigerator, furnace, A/C etc. So assume 1 car on the charger at a time. I look around my neighborhood and I see virtually every house has a least two cars, a his and a hers. Many also have teenagers with wheels. How's that going to work?

An obvious solution is to double, triple or even quadruple the size of the power grid and rewire all the houses for 200 amp or larger panels. You don't even want to think about the cost to do that.

The wind and solar dudes figure they can charge using so called green power. I believe these people have no concept of how big an installation is required to generate 40 to 50 amps AT NIGHT. Then scale it up for 2 or more cars.

Well why not put big battery banks in houses on charge 24/7 using municipal power, roof wind turbines and solar panels all over the yard. When I was a kid every house sported a huge rusty looking TV antenna which fortunately disappeared when cable TV arrived. But the advent of free sat TV caused a sprouting of huge 10' satellite dishes. Fortunately the "free" aspect disappeared and so did most of the dishes. What I'm trying to say is I don't want 50' windmills all over my neighborhood. besides looking like hell, they pose a real risk to my family in wind storm and they kill all the birds.

I agree, burning fossil fuel is messy, but large scale use of electric vehicles is hugely problematic and will .never get off the ground until the charging problem is solved.

The other week someone announced they are installing high powered charging stations in Edmonton, Red Deer and Calgary. Each location will be able to handle two or three cars at once. Considering the traffic volume on that highway averages 50,000 cars/day, I wonder how long the lineup for charging will be.

I'm afraid electric will go the way steam did, great power but just not practical.

 

[Dobalovr]

EV will never be pratical in our Country given the great distances we drive and the cold winters reducing battery efficiency however once a practical method of on board power generation (fuel cell) becomes available the ICE will be dead. FCA tried getting the Dealers to purchase Hybrid Pacifica’s out West - next to none were sold. Cold fusion now thats what we really need.

 

[Davea Lux]

You make some claims that are new to me regarding lithium availability (other technologies are also being studied that go beyond lithium, such as metal-air battery technologies), the Krackatoa volcano single eruption effects in the 1800s when there were no automobiles running on fossil fuels or many fossil fuel industrial manufacturing plants and how one volcanic eruption compares today, the contribution of mankind to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere being only 5% today and maybe speculate on the effects of rain deforestation and its effects on removing CO2 from the atmosphere as we go forward. There are a lot of claims, but no citations that would be helpful to validate the claims, as contained in most professional papers if readers are expected to believe them.

As far as the shortage of lithium goes, see:
www.greentechmedia.com "Is there enough Lithium to maintain the growth of the Lithium Ion Battery Market?" Details the the unlikely supply system for Lithium.

Since you seem to like the technical aspects of "Climate Change", Roy Spencer of the University of Alabama, Huntsville has written extensively on the subject. www.drroyspencer.com. He is the retired lead climatologist for Nasa and openly admits that most of the climate models to date are not accurate enough to be reliable. Has very many articles on his website and is interesting reading.

Dave

 

[Mid70's Chrysler Fanatic]

Methane and CO2 are produced in abundance by natural processes on the planet. Humans contribute at last estimate something like 5% of these materials to the totals produced. Forests remove CO2 from the atmosphere as do ocean plants and algae....

In the mean time, I would suggest planting a tree.
Dave

I feed the forest adjacent to my driveway by firing up my C-body Town & Country.

 

[jake]

The power requirements of the electric car are significant and as pointed out earlier the existing power grid can only support a few cars per block.

Here is the basic problem.
If charged using 120v will take all night to charge a dead car. Upgrading to a 240v circuit, like those used for clothes driers will reduce the charge time to 4 to 9 hours depending on the battery size. The 240v charger will draw 40 to 50 amps. A typical house in Canada has a 100 amp panel, so two cars on charge would leave 20 to zip amps left for your critical use, things like your freezer, refrigerator, furnace, A/C etc. So assume 1 car on the charger at a time. I look around my neighborhood and I see virtually every house has a least two cars, a his and a hers. Many also have teenagers with wheels. How's that going to work?

An obvious solution is to double, triple or even quadruple the size of the power grid and rewire all the houses for 200 amp or larger panels. You don't even want to think about the cost to do that.

The wind and solar dudes figure they can charge using so called green power. I believe these people have no concept of how big an installation is required to generate 40 to 50 amps AT NIGHT. Then scale it up for 2 or more cars.

Well why not put big battery banks in houses on charge 24/7 using municipal power, roof wind turbines and solar panels all over the yard. When I was a kid every house sported a huge rusty looking TV antenna which fortunately disappeared when cable TV arrived. But the advent of free sat TV caused a sprouting of huge 10' satellite dishes. Fortunately the "free" aspect disappeared and so did most of the dishes. What I'm trying to say is I don't want 50' windmills all over my neighborhood. besides looking like hell, they pose a real risk to my family in wind storm and they kill all the birds.

I agree, burning fossil fuel is messy, but large scale use of electric vehicles is hugely problematic and will .never get off the ground until the charging problem is solved.

The other week someone announced they are installing high powered charging stations in Edmonton, Red Deer and Calgary. Each location will be able to handle two or three cars at once. Considering the traffic volume on that highway averages 50,000 cars/day, I wonder how long the lineup for charging will be.

I'm afraid electric will go the way steam did, great power but just not practical.

So lets just not seek better ways, lets just keep doing what we are doing.

 

[Davea Lux]

So lets just not seek better ways, lets just keep doing what we are doing.

I do not think anyone is suggesting to stop seeking better ways. Today's gasoline and diesel powered cars are more fuel efficient, cleaner, more powerful and more reliable than they were just twenty years ago. Real progress has been made, the argument is if electric vehicle technologies are going to be up to the task. Many of us do not think so with current knowledge. As the knowledge of how to produce better EV's progresses they could someday be a viable alternative, just not yet or for the near term future. Elon Musk is an obvious genius at some things. His business model however is broken. The more Teslas he sells, the more money his company loses and without a massive bailout in the next year or two, Tesla will be bankrupt as will his new battery producing enterprise.

Dave

 

[jake]

I do not think anyone is suggesting to stop seeking better ways. Today's gasoline and diesel powered cars are more fuel efficient, cleaner, more powerful and more reliable than they were just twenty years ago. Real progress has been made, the argument is if electric vehicle technologies are going to be up to the task. Many of us do not think so with current knowledge. As the knowledge of how to produce better EV's progresses they could someday be a viable alternative, just not yet or for the near term future. Elon Musk is an obvious genius at some things. His business model however is broken. The more Teslas he sells, the more money his company loses and without a massive bailout in the next year or two, Tesla will be bankrupt as will his new battery producing enterprise.

Dave

I agree, but we will never know unless we try. Perfect example being the light bulb. If we gave up on the notion that gas is the only option, we are confined to a limitation.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

There is no free lunch. It takes energy to move all of your asses around and move all your crap around also. There are different ways to do things as demand changes someone will figure out a way to fill it. Everyone that thinks a electric car is crap take your battery electric drill and throw it in the trash it does not work, it has to have a cord to work properly, sound familiar. Crawl out from under your rock enjoy your old car, but don't be afraid of new technology, it may just work. Nobody is going to stick a electric car up your *** anytime soon, most of you will be dead by the time they become really popular, and no your stupid logic is not going to stop progress. Sorry but that's the way it goes. Nobody in 1977 would believe you could have a drivable 707 horsepower street car that will yield 20+ mpg on the highway, now your watching videos of lots of them.

 

[Davea Lux]

There is no free lunch. It takes energy to move all of your asses around and move all your crap around also. There are different ways to do things as demand changes someone will figure out a way to fill it. Everyone that thinks a electric car is crap take your battery electric drill and throw it in the trash it does not work, it has to have a cord to work properly, sound familiar. Crawl out from under your rock enjoy your old car, but don't be afraid of new technology, it may just work. Nobody is going to stick a electric car up your *** anytime soon, most of you will be dead by the time they become really popular, and no your stupid logic is not going to stop progress. Sorry but that's the way it goes. Nobody in 1977 would believe you could have a drivable 707 horsepower street car that will yield 20+ mpg on the highway, now your watching videos of lots of them.

The only logic "stupid" or otherwise that matters is the logic of the market place. If it makes sense to buy an EV because it operates cheaper and leaves a lower harmful footprint on the planet, consumers will buy them. Until then, you will have to drive Chevy volt in excess of 300k (per the M.I.T. engineering analysis) to recover its additional cost over a similar gas powered vehicle and that is without considering where all this additional power to charge them comes from if everybody suddenly decided to buy one. There are some very promising new battery technologies out there, such as the Carbon nano-tube battery being developed at M.I.T. This involves building a grid of Carbon nano-tubes something akin to a honeycomb. Single atoms of either Lithium Ion material or Nickel Cadmium atoms can be inserted into the carbon nano-tubes and stacked up. The result is a battery which has the electrically chargeable material perfectly aligned. This also results in a battery that puts out about twice the usable power with less than half the charging time. A remarkable technology. unfortunately with currently available production techniques it costs about $5000 to produce a battery with enough power to run your watch. But technology marches on, maybe the next tech genius will figure out how to produce them cheaply. In the mean time we are stuck with what makes economic sense, "stupid" or not.

Dave

 

[cantflip]

The power requirements of the electric car are significant and as pointed out earlier the existing power grid can only support a few cars per block.

Here is the basic problem.
If charged using 120v will take all night to charge a dead car. Upgrading to a 240v circuit, like those used for clothes driers will reduce the charge time to 4 to 9 hours depending on the battery size. The 240v charger will draw 40 to 50 amps. A typical house in Canada has a 100 amp panel, so two cars on charge would leave 20 to zip amps left for your critical use, things like your freezer, refrigerator, furnace, A/C etc. So assume 1 car on the charger at a time. I look around my neighborhood and I see virtually every house has a least two cars, a his and a hers. Many also have teenagers with wheels. How's that going to work?

An obvious solution is to double, triple or even quadruple the size of the power grid and rewire all the houses for 200 amp or larger panels. You don't even want to think about the cost to do that.

The wind and solar dudes figure they can charge using so called green power. I believe these people have no concept of how big an installation is required to generate 40 to 50 amps AT NIGHT. Then scale it up for 2 or more cars.

Well why not put big battery banks in houses on charge 24/7 using municipal power, roof wind turbines and solar panels all over the yard. When I was a kid every house sported a huge rusty looking TV antenna which fortunately disappeared when cable TV arrived. But the advent of free sat TV caused a sprouting of huge 10' satellite dishes. Fortunately the "free" aspect disappeared and so did most of the dishes. What I'm trying to say is I don't want 50' windmills all over my neighborhood. besides looking like hell, they pose a real risk to my family in wind storm and they kill all the birds.

I agree, burning fossil fuel is messy, but large scale use of electric vehicles is hugely problematic and will .never get off the ground until the charging problem is solved.

The other week someone announced they are installing high powered charging stations in Edmonton, Red Deer and Calgary. Each location will be able to handle two or three cars at once. Considering the traffic volume on that highway averages 50,000 cars/day, I wonder how long the lineup for charging will be.

I'm afraid electric will go the way steam did, great power but just not practical.

Thank you, that is the way I have always understood the issue.

I have also understood wind power to be a supplement only, as it is too inconsistent to reliably run too much of the demand.

I like solar. Some years ago when BO was giving away big $$$ for home systems I looked into it. I am convinced I have a good property with a large roof surface in approximately the right direction. I admit, I don't give a crap about anything but the $ in this. I determined in my half baked scheme that a $30k government check towards a $40k system and a nice buyback rate imposed on the local provider had the potential to not only pay me back enough to cover my installation, but could possibly net enough extra to be a profit by the time the system had turn from an asset to a liability.

If the $$ don't make sense, I don't want it. I also would need to feel really secure that the gov $$ would come through... I think this could have worked out for someone with a higher income.

Hybrids make sense as far as allowing our current driving public to transition, but will always have the cost penalty of the engine. You don't have to change your habits much to live with a hybrid.

Electric would be a big transition for a person who is used to the convenience of IC. It will improve, service wise, but be prepared for the day the plugin service has to become profitable. A tank of gas might seem like the good old days quickly then. Also, imagine how many street parking folks would deal with this...

I'm not denying that it's coming, but I doubt it will take over as predicted. Consumers won't adjust to what is available as quickly as the manufacturers will have to adjust to the consumers... government intervention will be the only way to make it change faster, and the $$$ involved should slow that quite a bit.

Truth is, I'm more worried about mandatory self driving cars than I am the electric takeover... IDK if either is real for my lifespan, but I'd be more willing to bet on self drivers. As electric gets more common, I'd like to beat Stan to creating the first electric Formal...

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The only logic "stupid" or otherwise that matters is the logic of the market place

No, the "I don't wanna attitude" is stupid plain and simple. It's coming no matter how much you jump up and down saying you don't wanna drive a electric car, like a 3 year old. I also believe that they will both exist for quite a while, by then all but the younger members here will be dead.
There is no way ever that a car is going to get you ahead in the world $$$ wise. They are a consumable product that requires constant maintenance and replacement parts (a electric car requires less parts and does not have the continuous fluid usage)
Right now Chevy volts are out on the road working well for many people, this does not mean everyone has to buy a Volt.
To sit back and poo-poo on something just because you don't think it will work is showing ignorance and very close minded, enjoy your bliss..

 

[Davea Lux]

Enjo

No, the "I don't wanna attitude" is stupid plain and simple. It's coming no matter how much you jump up and down saying you don't wanna drive a electric car, like a 3 year old. I also believe that they will both exist for quite a while, by then all but the younger members here will be dead.
There is no way ever that a car is going to get you ahead in the world $$$ wise. They are a consumable product that requires constant maintenance and replacement parts (a electric car requires less parts and does not have the continuous fluid usage)
Right now Chevy volts are out on the road working well for many people, this does not mean everyone has to buy a Volt.
To sit back and poo-poo on something just because you don't think it will work is showing ignorance and very close minded, enjoy your bliss..

Back at you, enjoy your bliss as well. If you like the volt or any other EV, by all means go drive one and enjoy the fact that you will probably not ever recover the additional cost, I frankly do not care, go spend you money however you want. Good place to leave this conversation.

Dave