Engine codes

[amazinblue82]

@saforwardlook has a good point. plus the observations from the posters in this thread on possible explanations of what you see today are insightful

BUT figuring out exactly WHAT you have today could be confounded by changes made anytime isnce it was built (e.g., dual exhaust could have been added, as could the HP manifolds IF they are there).

HP blocks but E85 internals are essentially E85s as I do not think the blocks were physically different (e.g., other features gave you the extra oomph). Likewise, ith E86 content they made the HP (Magnums, TNT's, Super Commando) 440 models.

so examining ALL the "contemporary" info (for this car dating from 1969/70) on hard parts (casting numbers, part numbers, VIN marking on block, fender tag, etc) and paper "markings" (broadcast sheet in particular, factory stickers, etc) are "clues" to help understand what left --but not necessarily so due to changes sometime AFTER it was delivered to a consumer, or even ihappened IN the build/rework process -- from/at the factory.

be prepared that all mysteries may NOT be solved/solvable 50 years later. you have lotsa help here though.

bonne chance!

btw, I think I remember this car from when it was here a few years ago. It's really nice!

 

[CBODY67]

Holley 4160? Stamp number on choke housing? Date stamp on carb choke housing?

Number stamped on the distributor housing?

As I recall, the 1970 Monaco sales brochure AND the owners manual in my 1970 Monaco Brougham DH43N0D specify an LA small block, 383-2bbl, and 440/350 ONLY. Yet mine was produced in March, 1970 with a 383/330 "N" motor. HP exhaust manifolds, crinkle paint dual snorkel air cleaner, and factory dual exhaust. When I bought it in 1975 as a used trade-in at the local C-P-D dealership, it was completely unmolested. Had the correct 4732S AVS and distributor, too.

Might need to peruse the '70 Dodge FSM to research the carb on the 440/350 and 440/375. My gut suspicion is that the 440/350 had the Holley 4160 and the 440/375 a Carter AVS. Then seek similar information from the '70 Parts Book.

In the past, some members in our Mopar club came to a determination of what items resulted in the "HP" stamp being applied to the block, but I can't remember them, other than most were cast on the "night" shift. I don't recall any special mix of cast iron like the middle '60s high-nickel Chevy 283s with "HB" on the front of the block casting, where it could be seen if looked for, for example. Which then leads to the orientation that "HP" stood for a "close-limit" machined-spec block, possibly, that was supposed to get HP internals (10.0CR pistons, HP cam, upgraded crank bearings, factory windage tray, upgraded piston rings, and other things listed in the Order Guide).

BUT, if it came time to build the motor for the vehicle, the que of blocks ready to be built were mis-loaded, with an HP block where a non-HP block should have been, THAT 440/350 engine would have been built with an "HP" block, I highly suspect. Which makes the particular VIN stamp more important, as well as the machining date stamp, too.

Just some thoughts, suspicions, and observations,
CBODY67

 

[ayilar]

As I recall, the 1970 Monaco sales brochure AND the owners manual in my 1970 Monaco Brougham DH43N0D specify an LA small block, 383-2bbl, and 440/350 ONLY. Yet mine was produced in March, 1970 with a 383/330 "N" motor. HP exhaust manifolds, crinkle paint dual snorkel air cleaner, and factory dual exhaust. When I bought it in 1975 as a used trade-in at the local C-P-D dealership, it was completely unmolested. Had the correct 4732S AVS and distributor, too.

Might need to peruse the '70 Dodge FSM to research the carb on the 440/350 and 440/375.

Correct. In the same vein, we know that 842 Polara 'verts were produced for the 1970 model year, and that 19 had the N-code engine (all US-market cars).

FWIW, no Polara 'vert left Belvedere with a U-code engine. That does not mean that non-police senior Dodges were not produced with the U-code engine, but I have yet to see one.

--> I agree, seeing the VIN digits on the engine block would help shed light here.

--> @Xavi3r it'd be great if you could also post the build sheet of DH23T0D188234. Thank you for offering to do so.

 

[69CoronetRT]

The first step is confirming the VIN on the block matches the car AND it's a factory stamping. Until then, we're guessing. (Trust...but verify)

Yes...posting a legible copy of the broadcast sheet will help but my gut feel is you will find the T VIN 350 horse 101 engine assembly listed.

 

[Xavi3r]

Holley 4160? Stamp number on choke housing? Date stamp on carb choke housing?

yeah, what i understood is that there are 2 types of carbs : carter and holley. yes holley have a diffrent number bit it is a variation of the 4160. it is stamped 4749-3 3456. i think it is original

Here is the build sheet :

I have a picture of a header too :

 

[detmatt]

Carb 51 is listed as a Holley R4366.

 

[amazinblue82]

yeah, the 4366 is listed in my reference materials for '70-'72 440s, and given its a Holley I think its for NON-HP engines. The HP 440's that year range specified Carters as someone said earlier (this is consistent with my personal experience with E86 police cars I own(ed)) .

the driver side exhaust manfold number 2951861 is the "log" type used on the E85 440.

So those two parts are indicative of/consistent with a "built-as" an E85, T code 440-equipped car originally.

Broadcast sheet has an engine assembly code of "103" and a "T" in the VIN. I don't know what all the numbers on broadcast sheets mean, let alone what the engine assy. codes all are, but is there any significance to that "clue"?

Checking the VIN stamping on block (if there is one there, as well as casting dates on the block vs. the heads/intake?) against the other VIN documentation will be very useful in sorting this one even further as to what happened in the factory when it was built .. or if things happened later?

 

[detmatt]

yeah, the 4366 is listed in my reference materials for '70-'72 440s, and given its a Holley I think its for NON-HP engines. The HP 440's that year range specified Carters (this is consistent with my personal experience with E86 police cars I own(ed)) as someone said earlier.

the driver side exhaust manfold number 2951861 is the "log" type used on the E85 440.

So those two parts are indicative of/consistent with a "built-as" an E85, T code 440-equipped car originally.

Broadcast sheet has an engine assembly code of "103" and a "T" in the VIN. I don't know what all the numbers on broadcast sheet mean, but is there any significance of that "clue"?

Checking the VIN stamping on block against the other VIN documentation was be very useful in sorting this one further as to what happened when it was built..

I don’t have the engine assembly numbers for the T code engines in C bodies but for a reference here are some engine assembly code numbers for HP engines in B and E body models:
3418114, 3418115 & 3418116.

 

[Xavi3r]

Carb 51 is listed as a Holley R4366.

ok the one on the car really look like it. it is not a 4160 derivation ?

 

[Xavi3r]

does this pictures of the cylinder heads help ? the pictures a quite bad.

 

[detmatt]

ok the one on the car really look like it. it is not a 4160 derivation ?

It is a 4160 with 570 cfm.

 

[detmatt]

does this pictures of the cylinder heads help ? the pictures a quite bad.
View attachment 517810
View attachment 517811

No, get to where the vin is stamped on passenger side under the engine mount and just above the pan rail. That’s all we need.

 

[Xavi3r]

yeah, the 4366 is listed in my reference materials for '70-'72 440s, and given its a Holley I think its for NON-HP engines. The HP 440's that year range specified Carters as someone said earlier (this is consistent with my personal experience with E86 police cars I own(ed)) .

the driver side exhaust manfold number 2951861 is the "log" type used on the E85 440.

So those two parts are indicative of/consistent with a "built-as" an E85, T code 440-equipped car originally.

Broadcast sheet has an engine assembly code of "103" and a "T" in the VIN. I don't know what all the numbers on broadcast sheets mean, let alone what the engine assy. codes all are, but is there any significance to that "clue"?

Checking the VIN stamping on block (if there is one there, as well as casting dates on the block vs. the heads/intake?) against the other VIN documentation will be very useful in sorting this one even further as to what happened in the factory when it was built .. or if things happened later?

So if I understand correctly, we are heading to the conclusion that the car has a matching ( we are waiting for the numbers but on the sheet it is that ) 440 e85, with internals and external of an e85 but the bloc would be an e86 ?

 

[Xavi3r]

It is a 4160 with 570 cfm.

ok thanks.
isn't that small for such a big engine ?

 

[ayilar]

So if I understand correctly, we are heading to the conclusion that the car has a matching ( we are waiting for the numbers but on the sheet it is that ) 440 e85, with internals and external of an e85 but the bloc would be an e86 ?

We're not there yet. What you have established is that the fender tag and the build sheet are for the same car, and that both show the car came from the factory with an E85 (aka T-code in 1970) regular 440 engine.

What you have not done thus far is check what you need to check on the engine (and on the transmission). You will know if the engine is numbers-matching if you check the part of the VIN (the last 8 characters of the VIN) that is stamped on the engine. The original 1970 engine and transmission have partial VIN's on them -- in your case, 0D188234 should be stamped on a raised VIN pad area on the passenger side of both the engine and transmission, which is where you will find the VIN stamp.

Here is a page describing where to look for that 8-character sequence -- see paragraph #5 for the engine and #6 for the transmission:

E-Body VIN Numbers (page 4)

PS: thank you again for posting the tag and the build sheet, folks like @69CoronetRT @MrMoparCHP @polara71 @cuda hunter and myself are quite into those.

 

[detmatt]

ok thanks.
isn't that small for such a big engine ?

Not if you need low end torque, it’s perfect.

 

[69CoronetRT]

We're not there yet. What you have established is that the fender tag and the build sheet are for the same car, and that both show the car came from the factory with an E85 (aka T-code in 1970) regular 440 engine.

What you have not done thus far is check what you need to check on the engine (and on the transmission). You will know if the engine is numbers-matching if you check the part of the VIN (the last 8 characters of the VIN) that is stamped on the engine. The original 1970 engine and transmission have partial VIN's on them -- in your case, 0D188234 should be stamped on a raised VIN pad area on the passenger side of both the engine and transmission, which is where you will find the VIN stamp.

Here is a page describing where to look for that 8-character sequence -- see paragraph #5 for the engine and #6 for the transmission:

E-Body VIN Numbers (page 4)

PS: thank you again for posting the tag and the build sheet, folks like @69CoronetRT @MrMoparCHP @polara71 @cuda hunter and myself are quite into those.

We also have to establish the assembly is the original assembly and not a replacement of some sort. Is it out of the realm of possibility the original E85 assembly was replaced with a new E86 assembly AND the dealership was one of the few conscientious dealers to stamp the VIN on the block?

Dealer: I need a new warranty block.
Parts Depot: I don't have an E85 assembly in stock but a dealer down the road stuck me with an E86 assembly I ordered for a GTX a guy blew up. You could use it. Swap the exhaust manifold and other external parts. Otherwise, it might take a week or two to get the E85 assembly.
Dealer: The guy's on my *** to get the car fixed. I'll take it, put the other stuff on the engine and follow the guidelines to stamp a new VIN on the block. The owner won't know the difference.

 

[amazinblue82]

the reason I asked about hard part casting dates is to see IF they look "logical" (likely in order that reflected WHEN things generally happened in vehicle assembly processed back then).

for example, are the hard part dates (foundry parts like blocks, heads, intakes) little bit earlier (a few days to a couple months) than assembly date of the car?

my personal example with date relevance was with a 73 Polara cop car with NO VIN on the block (nor tranny ... common for cop sleds back then btw). all other markings on car/ build documents aligned just fine.

in the dept. service record, however, was a notation when they rebuilt the engine in fall 1975. car was in the "garage" for almost three months, and went to state auction in fall 1976, two owners until 1988 when i got it.

we further infered they used a service/replacement block as its CASTING date was late 1974 ..18 months AFTER the 1973 Polara originally went down the assy line. knowledge of ownership history was obviously helpful too.

so back to this example for the Monaco, IF the HP block casting date is not in a logical sequence to assy date of car, then thats a relevant "clue".

looking forward to that information if decide to keep the effort going.

 

[69CoronetRT]

Here’s what we know so far….

Engine assembly date 12 19 (F series so 1969)
Car SPD 1 21 1970.

 

[detmatt]

Here’s what we know so far….

Engine assembly date 12 19 (F series so 1969)
Car SPD 1 21 1970.

Wouldn’t F be 1970?