polara10x500
Member
HOW ABOUT THE FUEL PUMP ROD, ISNT IT JUST TO THE RIGHT OF DIZZY.
Engine noise help
- Thread starter Fireguyfire
- Start date
Possibly a worn out fuel pump push rod.
Retroman
Member
C-Buddies:
I wish to relate a recent experience that may help. I have a car from 1963..lets just say its not a MOPAR... that I was convinced had a bad valve. It had a real nice distinct tap on start up. As the car warmed and we were on the road it would soften out. I was all set to get under the engine's skin when I was talking to my uncle (an old hot rodder in his 80s). He went out to the car and placed his hands on the engine. After one or two repositioning of his hands around the valve covers etc. (Yeah it looked like he was healing it) He told me to put my hand on the rear of the exhaust manifold where the mani and pipe join. Sure enough I could feel a hot jet blast on my hand from a small hole in the gasket and it sounded dead to rights like a valve. I put a mirror on it and found it. Should rule it out...could save some trouble.
All the best,
Retroman
I wish to relate a recent experience that may help. I have a car from 1963..lets just say its not a MOPAR... that I was convinced had a bad valve. It had a real nice distinct tap on start up. As the car warmed and we were on the road it would soften out. I was all set to get under the engine's skin when I was talking to my uncle (an old hot rodder in his 80s). He went out to the car and placed his hands on the engine. After one or two repositioning of his hands around the valve covers etc. (Yeah it looked like he was healing it) He told me to put my hand on the rear of the exhaust manifold where the mani and pipe join. Sure enough I could feel a hot jet blast on my hand from a small hole in the gasket and it sounded dead to rights like a valve. I put a mirror on it and found it. Should rule it out...could save some trouble.
All the best,
Retroman
1970FuryConv
Old Man with a Hat
I was thinking lifters as well. Simple to replace all, but you need a cam break in.
1970FuryConv
Old Man with a Hat
When I was in Chrysler tech school long ago, we were taught that lifters are installed offset to the cam lobes, the bottom of the lifter is convex, and the top of the cam lobe is tapered. Those 3 things cause the lifter to spin on the cam lobe. During the 1st few minutes of break-in, each lifter and cam lobe become mated by wear during spinning. If replacing all the lifters, that relationship needs to be reestablished with a new break-in. However, if you've been able to replace all lifters without doing a break-in, and the cam was not damaged, mo-power to you.
arkmorris
New Member
I had a 1970 Plymouth Fury with a funny "tick' that seemed to come from the top of the 440 motor. Drove me crazy. I finally found it to be a small exhaust manifold to block gasket leak. Sounds nuts but happened to me. Maybe?
Fireguyfire
Active Member
I wanted to update this thread as I finally was able to get the 300 hour not the shop to sort out a few issues, and rebuild the front and rear suspension.
The last big and annoying issue was the engine “rubbing” noise and I have spent all week troubleshooting it with no luck until today.
I removed the belts and eliminated the water pump, alternator and power steering pump as the noise was still there. With the stethoscope the sound definitely seemed to be focused towards the top of the timing chain cover, behind the water pump.
I then removed the fuel pump pushrod and reinstalled the pump to eliminate that, and sure enough the sound was still there.
So I finally but the bullet this morning as I wanted to get a look at the camshaft end area so I drained and removed the rad, water pump etc, and then removed the timing chain cover.
Everything looked good there but I decided to rotate the timing chain sprockets so that the marks lined up and then removed the timing chain and sprockets to have a look; and that’s when I found my smoking gun, right where the noise seemed to be originating according to the stethoscope!
The back of the top sprocket has a bright shiny wear mark, where it has been rubbing the block casting around the end of the camshaft. This is clearly the source of my engine rubbing noise, but now the question becomes why it’s rubbing.
The chain is within deflection speck but is a bit worm so I’m going to order a new timing set and compare the back of the new sprocket to the old one, to make sure the old one was correct for a 440.
I’m about to dive into my shop manual, but thought I would post it up here in case someone else gets a similar engine noise.
And I’m also hoping some of you big block gurus can help me out with a guess as to why this might be rubbing, so that I can fix the problem and not just the symptom.
The last big and annoying issue was the engine “rubbing” noise and I have spent all week troubleshooting it with no luck until today.
I removed the belts and eliminated the water pump, alternator and power steering pump as the noise was still there. With the stethoscope the sound definitely seemed to be focused towards the top of the timing chain cover, behind the water pump.
I then removed the fuel pump pushrod and reinstalled the pump to eliminate that, and sure enough the sound was still there.
So I finally but the bullet this morning as I wanted to get a look at the camshaft end area so I drained and removed the rad, water pump etc, and then removed the timing chain cover.
Everything looked good there but I decided to rotate the timing chain sprockets so that the marks lined up and then removed the timing chain and sprockets to have a look; and that’s when I found my smoking gun, right where the noise seemed to be originating according to the stethoscope!
The back of the top sprocket has a bright shiny wear mark, where it has been rubbing the block casting around the end of the camshaft. This is clearly the source of my engine rubbing noise, but now the question becomes why it’s rubbing.
The chain is within deflection speck but is a bit worm so I’m going to order a new timing set and compare the back of the new sprocket to the old one, to make sure the old one was correct for a 440.
I’m about to dive into my shop manual, but thought I would post it up here in case someone else gets a similar engine noise.
And I’m also hoping some of you big block gurus can help me out with a guess as to why this might be rubbing, so that I can fix the problem and not just the symptom.
WAG here...
Is the crank gear on backwards?
Is the crank gear on backwards?
Fireguyfire
Active Member
No; both were correct with the O markings facing out that you line up to install the set.
Fireguyfire
Active Member
I want to make sure I figure out why it was rubbing so that I don’t put it all back together and refill the rad and gave the same thing happen with a new set.
I’m thinking it could be the sprocket itself; when I get the new for sure correct set I will compare them.
Is there a possibility that the cam shaft is walking back into the block and the rear of the cam sprocket then rubs?
I’m thinking it could be the sprocket itself; when I get the new for sure correct set I will compare them.
Is there a possibility that the cam shaft is walking back into the block and the rear of the cam sprocket then rubs?
Fireguyfire
Active Member
Or perhaps a worn cam bearing at the front that is allowing a slight wobble which might lead to rubbing?
1970FuryConv
Old Man with a Hat
The vertical aluminum face of this bearing visible in your picture is supposed to keep the camshaft from walking backwards.
It does not look like from what I can see that there's a problem with that bearing. I think you're probably right about a fitment issue with the cam sprocket that you got with your timing chain set.
I used this timing chain set on a 1969 440 that I built. I bought it from Hughes Engines. No rubbing problems.
It does not look like from what I can see that there's a problem with that bearing. I think you're probably right about a fitment issue with the cam sprocket that you got with your timing chain set.
I used this timing chain set on a 1969 440 that I built. I bought it from Hughes Engines. No rubbing problems.
The taper on the cam lobes plus the force of the valve springs against the valve lifter should keep the cam "forward" during operation. Any rearward "walk" would be against the rear of the cam sprocket and the front of the block, adjacent to the front cam bearing. Roller lifters, whose related cam has no taper, needs a "cam button" (to contact the timing cover) and keep the cam from moving forward during use.
I don't recall specifically, but if there is a rear cam plug (like a large and thin freeze plug), that limits the cam's rearward motion not taken care of by the back of the cam sprocket (rubbing the front of the block) or the valve lifters. Is there an oil seep from back there?
As to the "ticks" mentioned, due to a slightly loose exhaust manifold nut/bolt . . . been there, done that on our '66 Newport 383 2bbl. The rh rr location, noticed only on acceleration. Amazing how quiet that car got after that fastener was tightened!
Please keep us posted,
CBODY67
I don't recall specifically, but if there is a rear cam plug (like a large and thin freeze plug), that limits the cam's rearward motion not taken care of by the back of the cam sprocket (rubbing the front of the block) or the valve lifters. Is there an oil seep from back there?
As to the "ticks" mentioned, due to a slightly loose exhaust manifold nut/bolt . . . been there, done that on our '66 Newport 383 2bbl. The rh rr location, noticed only on acceleration. Amazing how quiet that car got after that fastener was tightened!
Please keep us posted,
CBODY67
Fireguyfire
Active Member
Thanks for the inputs gents.
Just for clarity, the timing set was already in the engine when I bought the car. When I went through the engine I checked for chain deflection, and since it was in spec I reinstalled that set. I clearly missed the rub mark on the back of the top sprocket.
I’ve been scouring the internet for info, and have come across a couple of people who say that you need to live the back of that sprocket with assembly lube, as it gets oil only by splashing.
I’m wondering if the combination of a tight or incorrect fit, plus a dry metal to metal install that never got oil between the 2 after being installed created the problem.
Just for clarity, the timing set was already in the engine when I bought the car. When I went through the engine I checked for chain deflection, and since it was in spec I reinstalled that set. I clearly missed the rub mark on the back of the top sprocket.
I’ve been scouring the internet for info, and have come across a couple of people who say that you need to live the back of that sprocket with assembly lube, as it gets oil only by splashing.
I’m wondering if the combination of a tight or incorrect fit, plus a dry metal to metal install that never got oil between the 2 after being installed created the problem.
To me, the "lube" is not an issue as those cam sprockets have been replaced "dry", with the existing protective oil on it, or with just a few drops of oil on them for ages with no issues. Agreed, it's best to put some assy lube (liquid or moly paste) on them due to the "oil by splash/mist" situation.
Perhaps the block casting is bit large in that area? In which case, you might cover everything up and clearance the block with a file or rotary tool so no contact between the sprocket occurs. But it would seem that if the sprocket has contacted the block, then the timing chain should be angled rearward from the top?
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
Perhaps the block casting is bit large in that area? In which case, you might cover everything up and clearance the block with a file or rotary tool so no contact between the sprocket occurs. But it would seem that if the sprocket has contacted the block, then the timing chain should be angled rearward from the top?
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
Fireguyfire
Active Member
So what the issue was, was that the set installed was likely improperly manufactured and had been machined incorrectly.
I bought a new timing set this morning, and the rear of the cam sprocket has the correct thrust bearing surface that matches up to the block and the front of the cam perfectly, as it should.
The guru at my local engine machining shop said the cam gear that came in my engine is a correct big block dodge size, but he has never seen the back side machines like the one in mine, and is completely wrong.
Anyways, I’ll install the new timing set, reinstall evening back in the car and fire it up to confirm that the rubbing noise is gone.
I will do another update of this thread either way for educational purposes
I bought a new timing set this morning, and the rear of the cam sprocket has the correct thrust bearing surface that matches up to the block and the front of the cam perfectly, as it should.
The guru at my local engine machining shop said the cam gear that came in my engine is a correct big block dodge size, but he has never seen the back side machines like the one in mine, and is completely wrong.
Anyways, I’ll install the new timing set, reinstall evening back in the car and fire it up to confirm that the rubbing noise is gone.
I will do another update of this thread either way for educational purposes
Fireguyfire
Active Member
Well, time for an update after another frustrating day!
Reinstalled the rad, alternator, PS pump etc and refilled the coolant.
Fired up the engine and not only is the “rub rub rub” noise still there, it now seems louder after installing the new timing chain set.
Needless to say I was not a happy camper since I had pulled the front cover off after removing those items, and found the incorrect top timing chain sprocket with the rub marks on the back which I posted photos up, I was 99% sure I had found my issue; wrong!!!
Again listening with the stethoscope the sound is by far the strongest in the exact same location, behind the water pump at the top of the timing chain cover.
Once the disappointment goes away I need to come up with a plan of attack to figure out where this “rub rub rub” noise is coming from.
I’m thinking the best place to start will be to remove all of the same stuff, and have a look at the rear of the new correct cam sprocket to see if that tells me anything. I’m thinking that the reason the noise is the same, and seemingly from the same location but louder is that the bearing surface on the rear of the new cam sprocket is much wider than the incorrect one that was in it, so it has a larger surface area if that’s rubbing now as well.
I’m getting deep in the weeds here but because the sound is “rub rub rub” matching the rpm speed and not continuous, tells me that perhaps the front of the cam is off, and the bearing surface is canted slightly which would give a rub where it bears down, and a break where it moves away? Also, if you look at the photo of the old cam sprocket above with the west on the back contact surface, it is not a continuous ring either and has a break in it, which again lead me to believe I had found my issue as that wear correlates perfectly with the “rub rub rub” sound I’m hearIng.
Best guess until I get back into the engine Sunday and check the back of the new cam sprocket is that I’ve fixed the symptom, and not the problem.
Again a guess but the way that the back of the old cam sprocket was recessed the opposite that it should be, there would have been a space between the back of the cam sprocket and the front of the cam and maybe this has lead to a bend on the front of the cam surface?
The previous owner stated the engine had been fine, and then this “rub rub rub” noise slowly appeared.
Sorry for the frustrated ramble, but I’m thinking the first thing to look at is the rear of the new cam sprocket, and if there is some funny wear starting on it after just being replaced then the cam needs to be investigated.
To recap, I’ve ruled out the valve train, water pump, alternator, fuel pump, fuel pump rod, and power steering pump. The only other thing in the area of this noise originating is the bottom of the distributor where it meshes with the cam gear but that seems unlikely to me as the sound is not at all like a gear issue whine, but is again a rubbing sound.
If pulling the new sprocket doesn’t reveal any insights I’m guessing the next thing would be to remove the intake and have a good look at the cam.
Any other ideas or suggestions would be appreciated!!!
Reinstalled the rad, alternator, PS pump etc and refilled the coolant.
Fired up the engine and not only is the “rub rub rub” noise still there, it now seems louder after installing the new timing chain set.
Needless to say I was not a happy camper since I had pulled the front cover off after removing those items, and found the incorrect top timing chain sprocket with the rub marks on the back which I posted photos up, I was 99% sure I had found my issue; wrong!!!
Again listening with the stethoscope the sound is by far the strongest in the exact same location, behind the water pump at the top of the timing chain cover.
Once the disappointment goes away I need to come up with a plan of attack to figure out where this “rub rub rub” noise is coming from.
I’m thinking the best place to start will be to remove all of the same stuff, and have a look at the rear of the new correct cam sprocket to see if that tells me anything. I’m thinking that the reason the noise is the same, and seemingly from the same location but louder is that the bearing surface on the rear of the new cam sprocket is much wider than the incorrect one that was in it, so it has a larger surface area if that’s rubbing now as well.
I’m getting deep in the weeds here but because the sound is “rub rub rub” matching the rpm speed and not continuous, tells me that perhaps the front of the cam is off, and the bearing surface is canted slightly which would give a rub where it bears down, and a break where it moves away? Also, if you look at the photo of the old cam sprocket above with the west on the back contact surface, it is not a continuous ring either and has a break in it, which again lead me to believe I had found my issue as that wear correlates perfectly with the “rub rub rub” sound I’m hearIng.
Best guess until I get back into the engine Sunday and check the back of the new cam sprocket is that I’ve fixed the symptom, and not the problem.
Again a guess but the way that the back of the old cam sprocket was recessed the opposite that it should be, there would have been a space between the back of the cam sprocket and the front of the cam and maybe this has lead to a bend on the front of the cam surface?
The previous owner stated the engine had been fine, and then this “rub rub rub” noise slowly appeared.
Sorry for the frustrated ramble, but I’m thinking the first thing to look at is the rear of the new cam sprocket, and if there is some funny wear starting on it after just being replaced then the cam needs to be investigated.
To recap, I’ve ruled out the valve train, water pump, alternator, fuel pump, fuel pump rod, and power steering pump. The only other thing in the area of this noise originating is the bottom of the distributor where it meshes with the cam gear but that seems unlikely to me as the sound is not at all like a gear issue whine, but is again a rubbing sound.
If pulling the new sprocket doesn’t reveal any insights I’m guessing the next thing would be to remove the intake and have a good look at the cam.
Any other ideas or suggestions would be appreciated!!!
'66 Fury I
Active Member
Two thoughts. I'm sure you have had a good look at the inside of the timing chain cover, right? Second, if the cam is warped or the face the gear mates with is not true, it could cause the gear to "wobble". Sounds like you are already suspecting this. You might check for this with the cover off and before pulling the gears and chain. You could remove the spark plugs (to allow the engine to spin free and smooth) and crank the engine on the starter, watching for runout (wobble).
Machines can be frustrating, but unlike people, you can call the thing a few nasty names and walk away! This is why I chose to work with machines rather than people for my career. LC
Machines can be frustrating, but unlike people, you can call the thing a few nasty names and walk away! This is why I chose to work with machines rather than people for my career. LC
Fireguyfire
Active Member
Thanks 66 fury, and yes I had a good look at the inside of the timing chain cover, and will again when I have it off again!
Fireguyfire
Active Member
And one more question just to confirm in my mind as I try and figure out what might be going on; the back of the cam sprocket machined centre section is in contact with the machined block around the outside of the end of the cam, and receives oil from the slot cut into that ring, correct?
In effect the rear centre of the cam sprocket is a thrust bearing?
Just wanting to get the engineering straight in my mind before I dig into it again.
In effect the rear centre of the cam sprocket is a thrust bearing?
Just wanting to get the engineering straight in my mind before I dig into it again.
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