Fuel injection advice.......
- Thread starter Colc
- Start date
This will be a"forever" car, and I'm just trying to make it as drivable as possible on a regular basis, not going to race it [not officially anyway] If I could do something to improve the gas mileage, [$7 a gallon over here] it would help..........why buy something with a 440 is probably your next question.........beggars can't be choosers!
rkrochen
Senior Member
There are a lot of variables to consider. First of all how is it working right now. If performance is fine then you need to look at cost vs gains. How much will it cost to install fuel injection and how long of a pay back will it be. I personally don’t have experience to say if you would gain much in fuel savings and don’t think it would be worth it if that is the only reason for the change.
Rapidtrans777
Well-Known Member
Following. Drivability and fuel economy will be the goals in my 440 Sport Fury project.
When I was at Hot August Nights this past weekend, we saw these in the Summit display. If I had the money, I would want to go this route:
Holley Sniper EFI Self-Tuning Fuel Injection Systems 550-510K
Holley Sniper EFI Self-Tuning Fuel Injection Systems 550-510K
Ripinator
Old Man with a Hat
A lot of what I hear regarding after-market FI systems is not that good. They are expensive and it takes a degree in the black arts to get one set up correctly - regardless of the "self tune" feature. A couple of things you could do are a good and proper tune-up with NOS or NORS ignition parts and the installation of a taller gear - if you are running the usual 3.23 diff, you could look around for a 2.94.
I would find where your at now as far as AF ratio. Install a one bank or 2 bank wide band sensor O2 readout. If running rich you could re jet the carb etc and get much better mileage. . Try that first and see what you get.
Do the math... If you get 2 MPG improvement and drive 5000 miles and you spend $1250 to do it, it will take 3 years to pay for the improvement.
So... are you going to get 2 MPG improvement? Maybe... Maybe not. Are you going to drive 5000 miles annually... I don't know, but most guys don't. Is it going to cost $1250? Probably going to be more (ignition, fuel delivery etc.) and whatever it costs to ship. If you don't do the work yourself, it's not going to be cheap.
IMHO, stay with the carb. It's tried and true. Tune the car the best you can and go out and have some fun with the car as it sits.
So... are you going to get 2 MPG improvement? Maybe... Maybe not. Are you going to drive 5000 miles annually... I don't know, but most guys don't. Is it going to cost $1250? Probably going to be more (ignition, fuel delivery etc.) and whatever it costs to ship. If you don't do the work yourself, it's not going to be cheap.
IMHO, stay with the carb. It's tried and true. Tune the car the best you can and go out and have some fun with the car as it sits.
There are a variety of off the shelf FI systems that will work. You will need to convert to electronic ignition and install an electronic voltage regulator as prep for the FI as the electronics in the FI system will not tolerate breaker points in the ignition and regulator. There are a lot of variables and FI is not a one size fits all conversion. The self tuning feature has pretty narrow ranges and is mostly about hype to sell the systems. To do the job properly, the car needs to be set up on a dyno so that fuel ratios can be matched to the particular engine. Once set up it needs to be left alone as constant fiddling with FI always ends badly. Most of the time, unless this car is going to be a daily driver, the conversion is probably not going to be cost effective, but everyone's situation is different. At $7 gasoline it probably will make sense as a 20-25 percent increase in fuel mileage is a big deal with expensive fuel. Do your home work and determine the best system for your needs and find a competent FI shop to set the system up. Get a good idea as to what all of this is going to cost before committing to making the change. If this is a pleasure use car that is only driven occasionally, do a good tune up and let it go at that.
Dave
Dave
I have done 3 fuel injection installs on my fleet along with and wasted spark ignition.
One on the ford motor home with a 390. Has great power so it does not help with fuel economy. And two installs on both my 67 440s. One with MegaSquirt the other with MSD's Atomic EFI systems. All TBI installations.
Drove the MegaSquirt 440 about 360 miles last week and got a solid 19 MPG (Imperial). Great start and cold idle. Good power performance.
It do able.
You can do alot with your old carb (Jets and rods) and a wide band O2 sensor.... providing you don't drive it to different elevation all the times.
Steve
One on the ford motor home with a 390. Has great power so it does not help with fuel economy. And two installs on both my 67 440s. One with MegaSquirt the other with MSD's Atomic EFI systems. All TBI installations.
Drove the MegaSquirt 440 about 360 miles last week and got a solid 19 MPG (Imperial). Great start and cold idle. Good power performance.
It do able.
You can do alot with your old carb (Jets and rods) and a wide band O2 sensor.... providing you don't drive it to different elevation all the times.
Steve
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I just took a look at that system. That looks really straight forward.
67Monaco
Old Man with a Hat
Have you posted any other information about the MS build? I'm interested on how you trigger the wasted spark. Crank trigger or cam. I've been thinking about using the jeep cam sensor to trigger coil on plug.
Knebel
Senior Member
I have a Fitech on my 360. Fuel economy actually dropped, going from a Holley to the FI. Self tune is a JOKE. It tunes the FE Table on steady state cruise but thats it. You have to manually tune what you tune on a carb too except you can do it on a handheld from the cockpit digitally. I took me forever to tune the accel pump and I actually had to modify a 3d table for that. Driveability is awesome I gotta say..but...not really worth the cost. I am letting it control the timing too and that is an awesome feature, it has idle spark correction and the idle is amazingly smooth. There are a few things that can be adjusted that you just have to live with having a carb, overall its more sophisticated and has more potential to tune it to make the engine run its best.
I've been following the aftermarket EFI situation since they first came out. I was considering one of the first ones UNTIL I considered that the full install kit and unit were about $2500.00 USD, THEN put install labor on top of that. PLUS a compatible electronic ignition system and what makes IT work as needed. So, those $$$$$ signs started to appear and lose their brilliance, to me.
Consider, too, that the EFI TBI unit is just an electronically-controlled fuel dispenser, whereas the c is "analog". So, a newer carb with better atomization (as the AVS2 Edelbrock or a spread bore Street Demon could do about as well without all of the cost and installation/calibration/tuning activities. That's how I'm looking at it.
I've also seen the "horror stories" of how that things just don't quite work as well "as advertised", ti seems.
A friend in another car club has a '50 Buick Super straight 8. He built an intake manifold for the car out of tubing bends. He looked around and found Affordable Fuel Injection and got their system a few years ago. His highway mpg improved about 1mpg or so, with better driveability, over the orig equipment carb (1950s vintage). The install was easy. On his system, at that time, they were using a mid-80s style GM ECU, with a custom chip for his application. He's still "in love" with it, letting it also do the timing controls. Using a GM 2bbl TBI. I'd check out THAT system as it seems more basic and plug-n-play, to me.
I recall some EFI threads on the Drydock board several years ago. No big improvement in mpg, it was noted.
To me, the best place for a self-learning EFI system is on an engine which would have mis-matched specs/equipment (cam, heads, carb size). Something which would be hard to tune with a carb, in other words. A stock-type engine is not in that mix.
As for changing the rear axle ratio from a 3.23 with a manual trans, NOT a good idea, to me. You can do it, but getting it off the line in normal driving will take more clutch slipping from a dead stop.
But, as mentioned, get the car checked out and see what's there FIRST. Get acquainted with it in all operational aspects. A baseline situation. Then see what's under the hood. Stock ignition, what spark plugs, and how long have they been in there? Which carb? The usual stuff. I would expect that it'll do about 15+mpg on a 65mph cruise trip of 100 miles or so (generally level ground). Which is about where the automatic cars were when they were new.
IF you go with an EFI system of any kind, you step off into a new world of things. New adventures, of sorts, when something might not act as it should. BTAIM.
Getting more efficiency out of the existing engine will require more than just something that bolts onto it. The Edelbrock MPFI would be a good start, though. As good as the EFI TBI units were, they are still "fuel mixers" that rely upon intake manifolding designed for carburetors and "wet flow". MPFI systems are designed for "dry flow" and the injectors are better at atomizing the fuel, generally. One reason why the OEMs all went to it, eventually.
Doing some good headers can help efficiency, too, but can have some duratility issues of their own, especially the header gaskets (use the "black ones", not the base "white" ones). Which will also require some exhaust system upgrades, too.
Plus a good electronic ignition system, "fine wire tip" spark plugs, a compatible electronic voltage regulator. In other words, these are some of the things you'll need with an EFI unit anyway, so you can do them first with your carb.
As for the existing carb, you'll need to see what it is before we can talk about that. Getting it tuned with finesse (mixture, idle speed, etc.).
On my older cars, which I used to drive daily, I want them to drive as well as they can. Start when cold, stay running, and get great highway/average fuel economy. It can be done, but you won't find a manual that will detail what EACH engine needs or wants to get there. You have to learn it, unfortunately, but once done, a sense of pride can result.
Shoot us some pice when you get it and go from there.
Keep us posted, plese.
CBODY67
Consider, too, that the EFI TBI unit is just an electronically-controlled fuel dispenser, whereas the c is "analog". So, a newer carb with better atomization (as the AVS2 Edelbrock or a spread bore Street Demon could do about as well without all of the cost and installation/calibration/tuning activities. That's how I'm looking at it.
I've also seen the "horror stories" of how that things just don't quite work as well "as advertised", ti seems.
A friend in another car club has a '50 Buick Super straight 8. He built an intake manifold for the car out of tubing bends. He looked around and found Affordable Fuel Injection and got their system a few years ago. His highway mpg improved about 1mpg or so, with better driveability, over the orig equipment carb (1950s vintage). The install was easy. On his system, at that time, they were using a mid-80s style GM ECU, with a custom chip for his application. He's still "in love" with it, letting it also do the timing controls. Using a GM 2bbl TBI. I'd check out THAT system as it seems more basic and plug-n-play, to me.
I recall some EFI threads on the Drydock board several years ago. No big improvement in mpg, it was noted.
To me, the best place for a self-learning EFI system is on an engine which would have mis-matched specs/equipment (cam, heads, carb size). Something which would be hard to tune with a carb, in other words. A stock-type engine is not in that mix.
As for changing the rear axle ratio from a 3.23 with a manual trans, NOT a good idea, to me. You can do it, but getting it off the line in normal driving will take more clutch slipping from a dead stop.
But, as mentioned, get the car checked out and see what's there FIRST. Get acquainted with it in all operational aspects. A baseline situation. Then see what's under the hood. Stock ignition, what spark plugs, and how long have they been in there? Which carb? The usual stuff. I would expect that it'll do about 15+mpg on a 65mph cruise trip of 100 miles or so (generally level ground). Which is about where the automatic cars were when they were new.
IF you go with an EFI system of any kind, you step off into a new world of things. New adventures, of sorts, when something might not act as it should. BTAIM.
Getting more efficiency out of the existing engine will require more than just something that bolts onto it. The Edelbrock MPFI would be a good start, though. As good as the EFI TBI units were, they are still "fuel mixers" that rely upon intake manifolding designed for carburetors and "wet flow". MPFI systems are designed for "dry flow" and the injectors are better at atomizing the fuel, generally. One reason why the OEMs all went to it, eventually.
Doing some good headers can help efficiency, too, but can have some duratility issues of their own, especially the header gaskets (use the "black ones", not the base "white" ones). Which will also require some exhaust system upgrades, too.
Plus a good electronic ignition system, "fine wire tip" spark plugs, a compatible electronic voltage regulator. In other words, these are some of the things you'll need with an EFI unit anyway, so you can do them first with your carb.
As for the existing carb, you'll need to see what it is before we can talk about that. Getting it tuned with finesse (mixture, idle speed, etc.).
On my older cars, which I used to drive daily, I want them to drive as well as they can. Start when cold, stay running, and get great highway/average fuel economy. It can be done, but you won't find a manual that will detail what EACH engine needs or wants to get there. You have to learn it, unfortunately, but once done, a sense of pride can result.
Shoot us some pice when you get it and go from there.
Keep us posted, plese.
CBODY67
He does Not have the car,,has never driven it, does not know anything for sure what he has and has no idea of mileage yet. He is dreaming at this point understandably but is dreaming. Let us wait and see.
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