Fuselage - Drums to Disc Brake Conversion

Uh.. hello, it was in the parts list that he was good enough to make up and post for those who wanted to convert drum brakes; which is the very same one Ive been diligently following from day one. I figured there are folks here with more experience than myself when it comes to drum to disc brake conversions. As far as I can see he has mad skillz with this stuff. So im just trying to follow the steps outlined in the info. Youll have to forgive me if I dont have 40 or 50 years worth of knowledge and or experience of the subject. I havent even been walking upright long enough to even come close to that.


Argggh!!!

Gary, it's been obvious you've been struggling since the beginning. I know it sucks trying to filter information from several sources, especially when they are as reliable and respected as many who have spoken here. You have been given all of the information several times, the best advice I could give now is go buy a length of brake line... its under a buck a foot, and start practicing your bending. Get a double flaring kit, cheap if fine... and practice... throw a 25 foot coil away in little pieces as you flare and fail and flare again. Make sure you get a couple sacrificial fittings (male and female) to help you see if your flares are too big or too small. You have factory made flares to compare to... in a couple feet of brake line you will be matching their work.

I dont mean any disrespect, in fact I very much admire your bravery in attempting something this far from your comfort zone. The only thing that makes anybody better at this is experience, you're getting quite the crash course. Brake and suspension work is often seen as entry level work in the industry... There is no way you can't do it, but after a month and 31 sometimes painful pages, you are understandably burnt out...

You are doing fine, you had the balls to start this and got through the hard parts... the rest just takes patience.

I'll shut up again... you go do something... even if it's wrong.
 
Im sorry if i was edgy; and yea...getting info from several different sources (and I have no doubt is totally correct) at the same time is intimidating and even more so cause i really have no idea wut im doing...i didnt know wut "npt" meant until this afternoon when I looked it up. I dont even know if im asking the right questions about wut it is im doing...i figure i swallow what little pride I have and look like a dummie because I know nothing at all about this but I want to. So I really do appreciate all the guidance, but obviously I gotten confused about a few things. The most important thing to me is having dependable brakes that work everytime, thats whut I need...so thats why Im asking questions that migjt seem silly..cause I dont know. Anyways thats today's show.
 
Im sorry if i was edgy; and yea...getting info from several different sources (and I have no doubt is totally correct) at the same time is intimidating and even more so cause i really have no idea wut im doing...i didnt know wut "npt" meant until this afternoon when I looked it up. I dont even know if im asking the right questions about wut it is im doing...i figure i swallow what little pride I have and look like a dummie because I know nothing at all about this but I want to. So I really do appreciate all the guidance, but obviously I gotten confused about a few things. The most important thing to me is having dependable brakes that work everytime, thats whut I need...so thats why Im asking questions that migjt seem silly..cause I dont know. Anyways thats today's show.

You have nothing to apologize for... I just couldn't keep contained anymore. Your advisors here have been great, you didn't need my input.

FWIW nobody just does this stuff, we all learned somehow, sometime. You are learning now. The cool thing about doing the lines, unlike everything else, is you can practice. Stuff is cheap, and until you depend on it to stop the car... easy to correct any screw-ups.

I suppose I should have taken a few deep breaths before posting...
 
Little things like looking up "NPT" is very good. If you don't do that, you won't learn and there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know". We all weren't born knowing everything.
 
Gary, thanks for standing up for me when you thought Big_John was making a negative comment. I took no offense to it as I knew He was joking and only trying to lessen your frustration.

There's two school's of thought regarding whether to incorporate a Prop valve or NOT. As Big_John stated, I did mention NO prop valve was needed as MaMopar did not use them on their early disc brake cars - "And If the design engineers didn't feel they were necessary are they really?"

It is true that I DID include a PV in the parts list and for a very good reason. If I DID NOT include it in the list more likely than not someone would have chimed in and suggested that one was needed. If you happened to question its necessity there would have been a flurry of opinions which probably would have caused you more confusion. So, even though MaMopar engineers didn't feel a PV was necessary, rather than create a huge debate I included it in the parts list. I myself was NOT going to install one, but because I found a Mopar Performance/Wilwood Adjustable Valve (#P5249088) at a good price I went ahead and installed it just for the heck of it. Besides, when it comes to safety you can never do too much.

Before the conversion my only goal was to change over from the Single MC to a dual and retain the drum brakes. In my search for a dual drum master I ran across some info about a front disc conversion. I read about it, but thought "Heck, I don't know anything about this - that seems like a lot of work and besides I have no idea where to get the needed parts.... Forget it, I'll just change the master and be done with it."

Well, after I obtained the dual drum master I began to have second thoughts. As I mentioned I didn't know anything about doing a disc conversion or anyone who had ever done one let alone anyone who even had a Mopar - all I knew is that I wanted to do one. So before doing the conversion I did my due diligence and searched for whatever information I could find. Through the search I came across this forum and read up on what a disc brake conversion consisted of. I gathered whatever info I could find and continued researching where I ran across Rick Ehrenberg's "Dis-O-Tech" article. I believe you even stated you had read it. Anyways I read it over and over to where I nearly memorized it and then searched for more info. In my quest I gathered a lot of information and studied everything even including the differences between the '69-'72 and '73 spindles, rotors, cups, bearings, pin-style vs slider brackets and calipers, single piston vs dual piston vs multi piston calipers, distribution blocks, pressure reducing valves, metering valves, combo valves, proportion valves etc... I then dissected everything and put it in a type of chronological order where I could understand it best.

Needless to say I initially walked into doing the conversion blind as a bat and pretty much felt like how you have been feeling, however the difference between you and myself is that I had a lot of info behind me when I actually dove into the conversion. Though you had the benefit of my write-up which almost leads you step by step, you didn't have the same mindset I had going into it. I had studied all this stuff for a couple months before I did it.

We all can hear and feel the frustration you've been going through because we've all been there. We commend you on taking on the project and I'm most certain there are even some who have learned a lot from your questions. I'm sure there are some if not many who would not have asked the questions you did, but thanks to you for taking the bullet they got the answer. Remember there are no stupid questions. This forum is to help others and that is my goal which is the reason I document things. If I can make things easier for someone else, I'll do it.

As cantflip said, the best teacher IS experience. I know at this point you're fed up with everything and just want to get it over and done with, but I encourage you to forge ahead and re-make the brake lines. You bought all the stuff, don't let it go to waste. I know you can probably return the lines, the bender, the flaring tool and save on getting the mini-cutter, but believe me you'll get more satisfaction doing it yourself. You've gone this far, why stop now - just take your time. When it's all done you'll think back and say, "Wow, it really wasn't that bad...."

As I suggested in my PM, get some 12 or 10 gauge solid core wire and form the lines to how you want them OR take off the two lines from the MC and duplicate them using the bending tool. Just leave yourself some extra length on both ends.

You can then take the two old MC lines and practice making flares with them so you don't have to buy more lines. It doesn't take much tubing to make a flare - make one then cut it off and make another. You'll probably get the hang of it after two to three tries. Practice makes perfect!

Just take tomorrow, Sat and think about what you want to do. Plan it out in your mind then on a piece of paper. Then get some wire and figure out what you want to make and do it. When you're ready get the tubing and start bending, cutting and flaring... AND HAVE FUN!!!
 
Also, don't forget to adjust the end of the booster rod (adjustable screw end) that fits into the master before you bolt the master to the booster? Insufficient play and the brakes will drag, too much play and you won't have sufficient braking power.
Ya I see it. How do I know what the proper length will is BEFORE bolting the new MC on? As it is now the MC fits right onto the four studs it mounts to, but not all the way with the rod there (I removed the pedal bolt under the dash).
 
Ya I see it. How do I know what the proper length will is BEFORE bolting the new MC on? As it is now the MC fits right onto the four studs it mounts to, but not all the way with the rod there (I removed the pedal bolt under the dash).

You won't... There is often a brake pedal free play measurement, but I looked in my FSM and it wants you to verify the brake circuits are compensating. After fill and bleed, you will have to look down into the master to verify fluid is creating turbulence there when the brakes are released. Caution, the front chamber will likely squirt fluid all over the paint if you release quickly. This is best done with a helper and a couple practice stokes before your face is in the way. Flush any painted surfaces thoroughly with water if fluid gets out of control.

To be safe, start with a lower setting (screwed in) and you get too much pedal travel, start with a higher setting(screwed out) and the brakes wont compensate pressures as they heat and will drag as you drive. More heat more drag more heat... it would eventually boil the fluid and result in no brakes... so it is important not to be to far out. FSM should be more clear now... but please ask before you chance anything on a guess... brakes are too important.
 
  1. Can't tell exactly, but is that a retaining clip @ the plunger on the new mc?
  2. Bench bleed the master
  3. Use a tooth-pik or something to measure the depth of both mc's plunger from the FLAT of the base for comparison
  4. Your boosters rod is adjusted for the old mc and you don't want it to be adjusted too short (insufficient braking) OR too long (will hang up your brakes)

Go back to page 28 #552 to review my comment.
  1. The booster rod was adjusted for your old MC.
  2. The NEW MC plunger appears to be inset further than your old MC.
  3. You won't know if the plungers position shown in your photo is actual until you bench bleed the MC as the plunger may extend out after bleeding.
  4. Measure the depth of each plunger first
  5. If they are equal and the plunger is still inset after bleeding, then the difference in depth from the FLAT of the base to the FLAT surface of the plunger would be the approximate amount to adjust the tip of the rod.
  6. If they're of different depths then adjust your measurement accordingly.

As cantflip stated, you need to watch the fluid in the bowl for turbulance. You don't need to fill the bowl to the TOP for this testing, halfway would be sufficient.

Have to go work on finishing up dialing in the electronic ignition in my own car now... good luck!
 
You won't... There is often a brake pedal free play measurement, but I looked in my FSM and it wants you to verify the brake circuits are compensating. After fill and bleed, you will have to look down into the master to verify fluid is creating turbulence there when the brakes are released. Caution, the front chamber will likely squirt fluid all over the paint if you release quickly. This is best done with a helper and a couple practice stokes before your face is in the way. Flush any painted surfaces thoroughly with water if fluid gets out of control.

To be safe, start with a lower setting (screwed in) and you get too much pedal travel, start with a higher setting(screwed out) and the brakes wont compensate pressures as they heat and will drag as you drive. More heat more drag more heat... it would eventually boil the fluid and result in no brakes... so it is important not to be to far out. FSM should be more clear now... but please ask before you chance anything on a guess... brakes are too important.
Ok got it. THANKS for the detailed info cantflip....very helpful to me....and ya Im gonna ask a million more questions if I need to.
 
Go back to page 28 #552 to review my comment.
  1. The booster rod was adjusted for your old MC.
  2. The NEW MC plunger appears to be inset further than your old MC.
  3. You won't know if the plungers position shown in your photo is actual until you bench bleed the MC as the plunger may extend out after bleeding.
  4. Measure the depth of each plunger first
  5. If they are equal and the plunger is still inset after bleeding, then the difference in depth from the FLAT of the base to the FLAT surface of the plunger would be the approximate amount to adjust the tip of the rod.
  6. If they're of different depths then adjust your measurement accordingly.

As cantflip stated, you need to watch the fluid in the bowl for turbulance. You don't need to fill the bowl to the TOP for this testing, halfway would be sufficient.

Have to go work on finishing up dialing in the electronic ignition in my own car now... good luck!
Got it!
 
Gary, when you prime (bench bleed) your MC the best way to do this is via the gravity feed method.
  1. Place the MC in a vise
  2. Install the plugs and bleed tubes as directed by the instructions that should have came with the MC.
  3. Fill both reservoirs 3/4 full with fluid and just allow it to sit - maybe an hour or so.
  4. As air begins to escape you will see air bubbles rising to the surface
  5. When most of the air has escaped you will begin to see the fluid level decrease
  6. When the fluid no longer recedes, use a large head phillips screwdriver to slowly push the plunger in ONLY 3/4 of the way IN and release
  7. ONLY 3/4 because you don't know how long that MC has been sitting on the shelf and you want to be careful NOT to rip the rubber seal. By allowing the fluid to seep into the chamber the rubber seal will have some lubrication as you prime the MC with the phillips screw driver.
  8. Remember - Take it slow and don't rush... you're learning!
 
How hard should it be to push the plunger into the MC? It has sat for awhile and the fluid level is constant with no bubbles present....the plunger does not seem to want to move?

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It's pretty stiff to move. You are pushing against the springs in the master cylinder. It might be a little stuck from sitting too.
 
Once the MC is bench bled and primed, does the fluid stay in the reservoirs during install?
 
Yes, just put the cover on and if there were some plugs for the ports from the box it came in, stick them in there.

Just be very careful not to get any brake fluid on the paint.
 
air bubbles are lessening, but a slight leak is getting past one of the fittings.

If you can give it a little more, tighten it. Otherwise don't worry, you will still have to bleed out the rest of the brake system... there will be a small amount of air that gets in during assembly.

The whole reason behind bench bleeding is how difficult it can be to get the air out of the tiny passages of the master cylinder. It also helps protect the master cylinder during bleeding.

Advice: Often the master cylinder bore is not smooth finished to the end. During brake bleeding, if the brake pedal is pushed to the floor completely, you could get the internal cup seals into that unfinished area and damage them. For your brake bleeding experience, I often stick a small piece of 2x4 flat under the brake pedal so it is impossible to push that last 1.5 inches... I have bleed brakes with a lot of helpers over the years, the 2x4 trick makes this almost impossible to mess up.

I assume you have other bleeding instructions, so I will go back to lurking/watching.
 
All bench bled and installed.....I guess bleeding the calipers comes next...
I can probably find one or two 2x4 pieces of wood to use when I get to that point cantflip. All the advice I gotten so far from everyone involved I've cut and pasted and printed out. I'm making a folder so I have it all on hand if I happen to do this again (not for a very very long time).

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I like to use a vacuum pump to bleed the brakes. I've done it with a helper and found that the vacuum pump never asks "are we done yet?"
 
All bench bled and installed.....I guess bleeding the calipers comes next...
I can probably find one or two 2x4 pieces of wood to use when I get to that point cantflip. All the advice I gotten so far from everyone involved I've cut and pasted and printed out. I'm making a folder so I have it all on hand if I happen to do this again (not for a very very long time).

Next time you use that folder, it will be to help somebody else with your experience.

I like to use a vacuum pump to bleed the brakes. I've done it with a helper and found that the vacuum pump never asks "are we done yet?"

I love/hate my vacuum bleeder, but for one man production work, it is a must have. If I could have found a nice cheap pressure bleeder... that is the best... but you wouldn't really want one for occasional use.
 
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