For Sale It's back !1970 Plymouth Fury 70 440-6 V CODE SPORT FURY GT PROMO SHOW CAR

Status
Not open for further replies.
MATCHING NUMBERS.. while nice!.. are NOT A NECESSITY on such a RARE CAR the VALUE IS IN THE VIN TAG DIGIT ... would i love to have the numbers engine?..SURE but most MUSCLE cars values are only slightly OFFSET by a NON NUMBERS block... hemi cars might see 5% ... 6 pack cars 2-3% and YES SOME PEOPLE WILL NOT BUY NON NUMBERS CARS... and YES MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID THE CAR IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT ITS ORIG ENGINE.. i even had a HUGE MOPAR COLLECTOR [has over 100 hemi and 6 pack etc cars in oregon] tell me that over the phone... he got hung up on....
The numbers I usually see is anywhere from 10%-25%. Hemmings used to sell engine re stamp kits. The Corvette guys are really anal about it. Of course if we are talking about a 5 or 10k car, the discount might not even exist, going more on the shape of the car.

The funny thing about number matching cars, is that growing up, almost none of the cars I knew of (any brand) had the original engine. It just wasn't a thought.
 
Funnily enough, matching numbers is fairly important for an original car to me. I guess it helps me experience these cars in a way that I could not due to my age.
 
you simply found a buyer who wanted your car so bad the price did not matter to him.. lots of anomaly prices for cars out there.. you got lucky and made a profit...most don't..

well of course everyone hopes for a guy like that to come along!..but a one car anomaly selling for a MUCH HIGHER price than comparable cars does not a MARKET MAKE..

EXACTLY my point.. i would have paid 2500.00 for your car... ACTUAL SALE..but find the right guy and he will pay your price while no one else would.. like i said one car doesn't a market make..

market value is 15K and its for sale at that figure....
I do believe you are talking from both sides of your mouth.
'Other people's stuff is only worth no more than what I'll pay for it, while my unsold stuff has an established market value.'

Nobody has bought this yellow GT yet, and I will would be willing to pay 1500 for it (I'd go higher but I gotta consider shipping cost). Until you get a higher published offer, market value is set at 1500.
 
Thank you. Unfortunately, I have no real idea what my car "could" be worth because of the many variables that impact the value of a car. I had it appraised prior to purchase by a professional appraiser recommended by Haggerty insurance and he told me the current value when purchased was 10K but fully and correctly restored he estimated 40K. I think that might be high because C-Bodies currently aren't viewed as collectable. Now, having said that, here is what Haggerty's limited website value estimator says about 69 Sport Furys hardtops.
View attachment 79497

More importantly, here is Haggerty's statement on values. I feel the important word in this paragraph is Originality. replacing the eng/trans, even with the correct one for the car is not original.

View attachment 79498

Obviously, I'm more fond of completely original cars but this may not be as important to others. My point is that the "professionals" apparently feel the same way, that originality is important.

Then another well known site shows:


#5 #4 #3 #2 #1
2dr Convertible 1175 4600 8675 12750 20250
2dr Hardtop 925 2775 6350 10250 16550
Formal top 2dr Hardtop 925 2800 6425 10350 16725

Add:
440-350/375hp (4V) 20%
4spd manual trans 5%
Air conditioning 10%
Power windows 3%
Buckets w/console 10%

Have always felt Hagerty was on the fan boy high side in many ways.
 
As I recall, the "donor" car was a copper/orange colour S23!! But that was 8 years ago. He may be using a different car now. Either way, I was wondering the same thing as many others here... the car is so far gone, you would end up simply welding all new panels onto skeletal remains and sub-frames. Doors, fenders, hood, trunk, floors, firewall, door jams, pillar posts, windshield surrounds, probably roof too... all rusted out so badly full replacement is required. At that point, and given the car no longer has its numbers matching engine, wouldn't it be no different to simply transfer whats left of the GT to a usable console/bucket seat fastback fury? Under these circumstances does the current #2 condition price level -for a car that is simply scrap metal with a backstory- make sense?
 
I hate to wade back into this but thinking of them as rusted out piles is how that thing and many other muscle car era and later cars ended up in this state or crushed to start with.

Just a POS so why bother taking care of it ... and it only has 40K on it supposedly. It was probably thought of as a rusted out POS 30 years ago and left to rot, when it was actually in pretty damn good shape.

I imagine most cars that get the full on rotisserie restoration buy a shop, vs doing it yourself, are upside down on cost. Sure probably more so on this one due to condition and demand but if someone has the cash and or means I hope they do it.

Taking all what you say about a restoration then let's look at it pragmatically. How many buyers buy up very desirable cars simply to restore and get on the fantasy gravy train at B-J? Lot's do.

Now how many, with an unlimited wallet, are around to do a correct restoration just so they can have it all to themselves? Leaving Leno out of course. There maybe one or there maybe be none yet as the years pass none will have the edge. I'm sure he would also be well known as no beginner would take this on.

So there have been no bites for how many years now? Kind of like a guy sitting in a boat on Loch Ness waiting to catch that monster. Or Linus, in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin.
 
As I recall, the "donor" car was a copper/orange colour S23!! But that was 8 years ago. He may be using a different car now. Either way, I was wondering the same thing as many others here... the car is so far gone, you would end up simply welding all new panels onto skeletal remains and sub-frames. Doors, fenders, hood, trunk, floors, firewall, door jams, pillar posts, windshield surrounds, probably roof too... all rusted out so badly full replacement is required. At that point, and given the car no longer has its numbers matching engine, wouldn't it be no different to simply transfer whats left of the GT to a usable console/bucket seat fastback fury? Under these circumstances does the current #2 condition price level -for a car that is simply scrap metal with a backstory- make sense?

This kind of thinking will generate another whole mess about what constitutes an original or legal car. If you take the cowl of this special Brougham SFGT (that has the VIN number stamped on it) and the part of the quarter panel on the driver side that has the the VIN number stamped under the trunk rail weather seal and slide another appropriate vehicle under these parts, it probably wouldn't be much different than if you piece the vehicle together again with replacement metal except for the cowl and driver quarter. One camp will say the first method will not be a legitimate car and would be illegal while the second approach would be a legal car. I really don't see much difference except that the former approach would yield a good car while the second one would generate a patchwork quilt of parts that would not be as robust as the original car. In the past, folks have pounded their fists that the first approach is an illegal "re-body" (i.e. swapping VINs) and the second approach is legitimate, but I really don't see much difference (almost none of the metal in the original car remains when the welding ends either) - except for the integrity of the finished product. All I know for sure is that I would really like to see this car restored to its former glory and uniqueness at a car show someday. I really wouldn't care how it got there - as long as the original VIN tag is on the dash and the original body parts with the VIN number stamped on them were present and anything else that was reasonably transferable such as its matching numbers transmission etc. and the owner had either the original body code plate or the build sheets for the car (i.e. he really possessed the original car, or what remained of it) and it was a highly faithful and quality restoration. It would probably take a judge and a couple good lawyers to hash this one out if a challenge arose. It would probably come down to intent of the effort in the courtroom, as no car was stolen and the original car's remains was legitimately purchased by the owner/restorer and everything was fully disclosed - i.e. no attempt to defraud.
 
Last edited:
Taking all what you say about a restoration then let's look at it pragmatically. How many buyers buy up very desirable cars simply to restore and get on the fantasy gravy train at B-J? Lot's do.

Now how many, with an unlimited wallet, are around to do a correct restoration just so they can have it all to themselves? Leaving Leno out of course. There maybe one or there maybe be none yet as the years pass none will have the edge. I'm sure he would also be well known as no beginner would take this on.

So there have been no bites for how many years now? Kind of like a guy sitting in a boat on Loch Ness waiting to catch that monster. Or Linus, in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin.

Your unlimited budget, restoration to go to B-J, and Jay Leno analogies are just hyperbole IMHO.

Like I said before in my subsequent posts on this subject most restorations have more $ in them than they will sell for on the open market. This car is not different in that respect. It's just the degree that varies and the degree varies for all cars for many obvious reasons.

Regarding why no one has bought it I'd say because those few that are hardcore C body fans are so few in number and value them so little in terms of what they are "worth" the sales prices stay low which I think is how most want it. So the low dollar value is influenced by that and this forum, where every car is beat to death and minimized as far as value, so anyone thinking, hey I'd like to have a "pick a C body", and come to this site are turned off and go look at something else for an Impala or something. That's what really sets the market on what they bring ... what the true enthusiasts and those wanting to have what a family member or friend had are willing to pay.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Nothing here is meant to insult it's just my impression and give it based on your question and since the question comes up in various ways over and over.

The other thing is most C bodies are not performance cars. So memories of them are not of spinning the earth on it's axis, it's your Dad or Uncle's sweet luxo cruiser. This car and others, although a small part of the C body models, is obviously different.

Lastly the owner's personality, of this particular car, is one of the negatives based on my observation and maybe he's just too high. But many said it wasn't "worth" restoring at any price due to condition and not matching drivetrain.

This project isn't for everyone but one day it will find a buyer.
 
I do believe you are talking from both sides of your mouth.
'Other people's stuff is only worth no more than what I'll pay for it, while my unsold stuff has an established market value.'

Nobody has bought this yellow GT yet, and I will would be willing to pay 1500 for it (I'd go higher but I gotta consider shipping cost). Until you get a higher published offer, market value is set at 1500.


i can only speak for WHAT I WOULD PAY...
 
Your unlimited budget, restoration to go to B-J, and Jay Leno analogies are just hyperbole IMHO.

Not really but if you say so. Nonetheless answer the second and third paragraphs which deal with does such a buyer exist today and who would he be. As I said it won't be some unknown novice doing this if it is ever done.
 
As for moving the VIN that is absolutely verboten. You come to the dance with who you brought and you leave with who you brought.

Would someone value a re-bodied Shelby with the VIN moved over, now that there is nothing on the car that was done by Shelby in his Los Angeles facility, at full value? Shouldn't as now it is just a clone in my book. So moving the VIN on this GT will just make it a clone and nothing more. You are original once and once that is tampered with then value falls in my book.

It's amazing what corners people will cut when money gets involved. There have been cases of concours correct Mustangs having certain pieces removed by the owner and then put up for sale with replacements and no disclosure of it. Buyer beware. Just read a case where Sotheby's was auctioning a statue of a priest giving it a provenance of being from a private collection. Turns out someone located that it was present in a photographic database of a notorious looting and smuggling network back in 2007. Sotheby's was upset as it tainted the original story and compromised the sale of the work of art. Called it irresponsible. Oh, and it would damage their profit if it ever sold.
 
This kind of thinking will generate another whole mess about what constitutes an original or legal car. If you take the top of the cowl of this special Brougham SFGT (that has the VIN number stamped on it) and the part of the quarter panel on the driver side that has the the VIN number stamped under the trunk rail weather seal and slide another appropriate vehicle under these parts, it probably wouldn't be much different than if you piece the vehicle together again with replacement metal except for the cowl and driver quarter. One camp will say the first method will not be a legitimate car and would be illegal while the second approach would be a legal car. I really don't see much difference except that the former approach would yield a good car while the second one would generate a patchwork quilt of parts that would not be as robust as the original car. In the past, folks have pounded their fists that the first approach is an illegal "re-body" (i.e. swapping VINs) and the second approach is legitimate, but I really don't see much difference (almost none of the metal in the original car remains when the welding ends either) - except for the integrity of the finished product. All I know for sure is that I would really like to see this car restored to its former glory and uniqueness at a car show someday.. ..

I agree on the different procedures ending in practically the same result. However I cannot at all relate to either one of them and that's why this car for me and only me is absolutely worthless. Tags and papers with Close to nothing left over from the production process countless replaced parts that were not installed at the plant doesn't result in an original 6bbl Fury to my logic. The result has no Soul.
Any low mileage low hp all original Fury would make me happier.
 
Last edited:
As for moving the VIN that is absolutely verboten. You come to the dance with who you brought and you leave with who you brought.

Would someone value a re-bodied Shelby with the VIN moved over, now that there is nothing on the car that was done by Shelby in his Los Angeles facility, at full value? Shouldn't as now it is just a clone in my book. So moving the VIN on this GT will just make it a clone and nothing more. You are original once and once that is tampered with then value falls in my book.

It's amazing what corners people will cut when money gets involved. There have been cases of concours correct Mustangs having certain pieces removed by the owner and then put up for sale with replacements and no disclosure of it. Buyer beware. Just read a case where Sotheby's was auctioning a statue of a priest giving it a provenance of being from a private collection. Turns out someone located that it was present in a photographic database of a notorious looting and smuggling network back in 2007. Sotheby's was upset as it tainted the original story and compromised the sale of the work of art. Called it irresponsible. Oh, and it would damage their profit if it ever sold.

Some would say it is moving the parts car, not the VIN. Look at the big picture and remove the blinders. It isn't so clear. None of these cars are alive or have souls that must be captured, at least to most people. At what point is the car original in your mind - when half the original sheet metal is present, or 30% or 75% or ?
 
Last edited:
A skilled craftsman can save most of the original sheet metal, a lazy one will resort to a re-body. Once it's done the only thing anyone would be able to tell is that the block has been replaced. Beyond that nobody will really care.
 
Some would say it is moving the parts car, not the VIN. Look at the big picture and remove the blinders. It isn't so clear. None of these cars are alive or have souls that must be captured, at least to most people. At what point is the car original in your mind - when half the original sheet metal is present, or 30% or 75% or ?

Minimum 75% with most of the replacement in areas one doesn't see but also get rusted out as in floors and quarters.

Sans the blinders comment, it is my opinion, the more rare the car is the more it needs to be original. The more common the car the less it needs. So this SFGT needs 75% while a 64 Dart 4 door with slant six could get by with much less original to the car.
 
There-in lies the rub... tbm3fan sez originality is key therefore one MUST take "as-is" and restore what is presented, regardless that 99% of it may have to be completely replaced. saforwardlook raises the question that at what point can the car still be considered original... 25% replaced? 50% 75%?. While I would agree that simply transferring the identity of the original car to another is not a restoration and smells like fraud, I would have to say that a rebody under such circumstances as these is neither fraud nor cutting corners. Obviously, we can all agree a rebody is not "acceptable" if we were dealing with a simple case of swiss cheesed trunks and floor pans. However, I'm not aware of a body man -gifted or otherwise- who wouldnt replace a fender with NOS or from a donor car rather than weld one together from several pieces. So, Realistically, if 80-90% of the sheet metal has to be replaced, the car has essentially been "re-bodied" one piece at a time rather than all at once. So what is the difference? AND if originality is the defining point, What about all the missing interior pieces and exterior trim pieces that have to come from OTHER cars, and the new carpet, the new headliner, new seat upholstery, the new vinyl roof, new window glass?? Those are not/cannot be original items nor can they be built-up-refurbished from anything that remains of the originals. Isnt that "cheating? The interior is at least 33% of the car so wouldnt replacing all of it be problematic to the requirement that one "...come to the dance with who you brought and you leave with who you brought"? I say the matter is settled by virtue of the fact that a restoration of this car from scrap condition to #2 or #1 condition entails virtually REMANUFACTURING the car from front to back. 100% of the car must be refurbished, with at minimum 70% completely replaced by NOS or repop parts, while the remaining 30% is stripped of its originality and repainted, replated, rewelded, repaired, etc. In that case nothing is original except the springs in the seats, the plastic in the panels, the remaining bits of metal that all the new metal was welded too, the tranny, the rear, the suspension, the steering column, and the front and rear frame sections. I submit then, that a fresh BARE body, outfitted with all the "original" date coded items that remain, all remaining original hardware, remaining refurbished frame and suspension, remaining refurbished drive train, interior items, wire harnesses, etc etc, will be no different than having a "gifted" body man spend 10,000 hours welding patches and panels and wheel houses and hand fabricated pieces to the jigsaw of original bits left after all the rust is cut away AND THEN putting all those original, repopped, refurbished parts back in it/on it. When only the trunk, hood, roof, and bumpers remain (because even the rockers, door jams, door sills, wheel houses, and fire wall are rusted clean through) a BARE BODY rebody is as legit as welding 70% (or more) NEW metal onto what remains of the old metal, with the proviso that everything left that is usable/restorable from the original car be used for building back up the barebody used to replace the too far gone body in question. Thats my two cents worth.
 
Last edited:
Minimum 75% with most of the replacement in areas one doesn't see but also get rusted out as in floors and quarters.

Sans the blinders comment, it is my opinion, the more rare the car is the more it needs to be original. The more common the car the less it needs. So this SFGT needs 75% while a 64 Dart 4 door with slant six could get by with much less original to the car.

OK, tbm3fan has spoken. 75% is the correct number then that we all have to keep in mind (although the bar is less for a Dart for example).

What I think is interesting is that many of the cars at the Pebble Beach Concours in tbm3fan's neck of the woods each year are nearly complete reconstructions from almost nothing. I have personally witnessed many of these rare cars being fashioned by really expert technicians and body men from bare sheets of metal when virtually every panel in the original car was swiss cheese and made into award winning restorations respected around the world that draw huge $$ when sold. One of my friends in Monrovia, CA has a shop that specializes in this class of restorations (several have been first place winners at Pebble Beach), and I marvel at his technicians and how they do their work. In some cases I have witnessed them start with virtually nothing except some dimensioned drawings and go from there, with nothing physical to copy in front of them. But usually there is some remanent of some parts of the original vehicle. If this practice is OK for the rich guys with cars so rare that only one or two even still exist in the world, then I really have no problem with however this rare SFGT gets restored. I would just hope that it gets done in a quality fashion with all the details as factory correct as possible and as much of the original parts as are reasonably useable. All this swapped VIN talk is nonsense when the person doing the restoration legitimately owns the original car and the cars used in the reconstruction, everything is disclosed about the methods and has the proper VIN and accompanying numbers on the body as stated before. There is no attempt at fraud then and everything is disclosed. Just like Pebble Beach. If someone were to sue someone who did the restoration of this SFGT Brougham however he wished, in the fashion described, then a lot of guys at Pebble Beach should be in jail according to tbm3fan. You decide. I believe a lot of people would be interested in seeing this SFGT Brougham at a car show faithfully restored, however it is done, to its original glory. And I would laud the person who did it.

MONTEREY CAR WEEK & CONCOURS D'ELEGANCE
AUGUST 15 - 21, 2016
rm_2b52eee9-5362-4c65-93bc-7ae4042e9074.jpg
 
Last edited:
When the factory assembled these cars random bodies and parts were mated to random Buildsheets/VINs. There is nothing magical about the original body. They were built on "assembly lines" from parts bins.

The numbers matching thing was made important because many Chevy performance cars were 'package' SS 396 or whatever cars vs models so numbers matching and documentation was important.

Numbers on an engine and trans on Mopars didn't start until 68 and that was to help ID a car that was stolen or to identify drive train from one that was stolen and parted out for it's drive train. It was done to stop theft, not deny people from repairing cars that were legally owned and titled.
 
My highest regards to those experts that recreate such basket cases from scratch, now completely removed from this ph23vo issue, and I also would enjoy taking a Close look at a correct resto, it just wouldn't give me anything to own. And if you're talking of the high priced collector cars as 300 SL gullwings AFAIK there is a huge Price difference between a mostly original car with matching records and new buildups from the remains of a Frame, I think even condition 3 unrestored cars would surpass such a mint recreation.

To my (sick ?) theory or philosophy (my excuses to all philosophers who deal with "real" Problems of mankind) the random parts become a unity after a car is assembled. Maybe being a Person who was too Young to have a first Hand experience of new car ownership of that era I'd like to have a time capsule that can give me a mostly unaltered look at the techniques of mass production of that era with all shortcomings in Quality of execution. Still glad to help out serious restorers with the few cars I got that can be used as a reference
 
Last edited:
and my car ISN'T RESTORABLE.. yeah ok.. i see the daytona at ted stephens place is getting restored..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top