Pulley alignment issue

[70bigblockdodge]

That dampener goes all the way against the timing gear, trapping the flinger ring in between and holding everything tightly sandwiched. So if the snout does not stick out too far, the problem would have to be in around the timing gear. Either the shoulder it goes against is wrong or it's not seated or it is too wide. You need to measure everything from the #1 main bearing out. I would then assemble without the timing chain and timing cover to see why it is not seating.

 

[Big_John]

That dampener goes all the way against the timing gear, trapping the flinger ring in between and holding everything tightly sandwiched. So if the snout does not stick out too far, the problem would have to be in around the timing gear. Either the shoulder it goes against is wrong or it's not seated or it is too wide. You need to measure everything from the #1 main bearing out. I would then assemble without the timing chain and timing cover to see why it is not seating.

That's right.. I forgot that... The balancer bottoms out on the flinger/timing gear! So much for my theory of what was wrong with the crank.

 

[Big_John]

Here's another thought... And I have seen this happen... The hole not being deep enough (or the bolt too long) and the balancer not being drawn onto the crank far enough.

Just tossing out ideas that you may already have checked.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

That's right.. I forgot that... The balancer bottoms out on the flinger/timing gear

I think the timing sprocket is not seating all the way or caught on the keys that locate the dampener.

 

[PH27L7]

That dampener goes all the way against the timing gear, trapping the flinger ring in between and holding everything tightly sandwiched. So if the snout does not stick out too far, the problem would have to be in around the timing gear. Either the shoulder it goes against is wrong or it's not seated or it is too wide. You need to measure everything from the #1 main bearing out. I would then assemble without the timing chain and timing cover to see why it is not seating.

Agree that it should be disassembled through the timing chain. If the interference with the damper were too tight not allowing it to seat you would need to measure the OD of the snout & compare with the ID of the damper. The aftermarket damper maker should give a recommendation regarding the fit. Believe they make them tight so they may be fitted if necessary, at least that's how mine was. Some pics of my last motor, shows the arrangement-

 

[PH27L7]

I think the timing sprocket is not seating all the way or caught on the keys that locate the dampener.

I would think if the lower timing sprocket were not seated 3/8" you would never be able to get the timing chain on.

 

[PH27L7]

Here's another thought... And I have seen this happen... The hole not being deep enough (or the bolt too long) and the balancer not being drawn onto the crank far enough.

Just tossing out ideas that you may already have checked.

Perhaps the aftermarket cranks have a shallow bolt hole? As seen with the stock crank & bolt, it bottoms without the damper. There is a special tool for installing dampers although most with mopars just use the bolt since it is so huge.

 

[Big_John]

Perhaps the aftermarket cranks have a shallow bolt hole? As seen with the stock crank & bolt, it bottoms without the damper. There is a special tool for installing dampers although most with mopars just use the bolt since it is so huge.

Yea, I use a small block Mopar bolt to get it started. It's quite a bit longer, then I finish up with the stock bolt. Some guys just tap them on and then finish up using the bolt, but I've never been a fan of that.

I recently did a 340 for a buddy's T/A and I noticed the aftermarket bolt he had was just a little longer than the stock bolt. He had a stock crank though. I used the stock bolt.

 

[Cazman]

It all checks out. This is crazy. My machinist had a 440 in the shop. His dimension from the spalsher out to the end of the crank snout was something like 1 /18", so was mine. Same Same. My original balancer went right on like it was supposed to - right to 1/8" from the end of balancer. You could still see the stop in the metal. Plus measuring also showed it was on all the way. I'm going over to my machinist now.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I would like to know the thickness of the lower timing sprocket. Did you actually look to see without the timing cover on if it is all seating? Your measurements do me know good, like advertised duration on camshafts, measured from where?

 

[Cazman]

The main point on the dims was that they are the same as an other motor, so nothing obvious is wrong (no offense, as I know you know your stuff). Anyway, I ordered an ATI damper and it went on and the pulleys match now. The ATI is a little bit narrower and USA made so, I have more confidence in the dims (I have sent back two parts to 440 Source for bad fit). Still don't know what the main problem was. Maybe when I start it, my screw up will be apparent.

 

[Cazman]

I am almost done with this, but I have a question on the TRW Pump pivot bolt. This in the one that holds the pump to the bracket, not the one that holds the bracket to the block. From what I have read on the forum this bolt does not tighten and lets the pump self tension with load. It may even let the pump "lean in" a bit. It seems like a special bolt, as it has a shaft normal to a 3/8 bolt, but the thread is actually smaller. It also has some wear grooves (see below). So, I am not sure it I should just throw a 3/8 bolt in there or try and make a duplicate.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Remind me - is this the V shaped belt-load-tightening P.S. bracket? These brackets are misunderstood, and the issue has been brought up a few times here. They're actually pretty decent if they're properly assembled and maintained.

However, and at any rate, I do not think there should be a wear groove as seen on yours under the bolt's head and near the threads. Now ( and I'm going on memory here), IIRC, both the head and the threaded end should be very snug against the outside of both sides of the OUTER V -bracket (the "nut" for the bolt being integral to the V bracket) squeezing against but NOT binding the inner V-bracket.

Alignment is helped by the rubber snubber at the bottom of the V. If it's not there the bracket can twist, and this allows for the bolt to get wear patterns as seen, and the holes in the brackets to become hogged out, all of which exacerbates the misalignment. If the holes aren't too bad, then the situation is easily repaired either a new snubber, and if the twist is set, more alignment solutions are to be found by shimming the pump to the bracket with washers. I'll post some pics later.

Edit - apparently these V brackets are also in repro, or at least can be bought "refurbished" with new parts etc but I can't find a link to the service.

HOWEVER, if originality is not a requirement, there is a MUCH better 2 pc bracket out there that retains original belt alignment and never moves. In the old days one had to find it on 68 and up big block cars originally so equipped, but now it's being reproduced.

Pictures to follow.

UPDATE: Pictures:

USING WASHERS TO DEAL WITH ALIGNMENT ISSUES ON BRACKETS THAT HAVE A TWIST SET INTO THEM FROM PREVIOUS "NO SNUBBER" AND MILD BOLT HOLE WEAR

EXTRA STRONG FACTORY IMPROVED 2 PC MOUNTING BRACKET

This can be bought here:

TRW Power Steering Pump Brackets

 

[Cazman]

My bracket holes seem fine. I think the bolt took all the wear.
The bolt looks special though and I have not found a source for the rubber snubber. If I can I will keep the orginal brakets.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

The rubber snubber is the same as used for clutch pedal return bumper - Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

You might find the right bolt here - Mega Parts USA - Reproduction, NOS and Used Mopar Muscle Car Parts

If not, you can make a new bolt by getting a good quality grade 8 bolt in longer than required length, cutting it to length, then using a lathe, cut down the end to the right diameter for the threads, and then using a good die to cut the threads.

 

[Big_John]

My bracket holes seem fine. I think the bolt took all the wear.
The bolt looks special though and I have not found a source for the rubber snubber. If I can I will keep the orginal brakets.

This guy will put you to sleep, but this is the proper way to tighten the power steering bracket.

 

[Cazman]

I watched that video before. Very informative. Not much info on the bolt. I will prob take Ross’s advice and modify a bolt.

 

[Cazman]

For the knowledge base:

As Ross said - new bolt made. Still not sure why the strange design, but the whole set up is strange anyway.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Nicely done!!