Scenicruisin'..?

[cantflip]

Re read the AC paragraph Jeff...

Thank you Dave

I'm sorry, in all the excitement, I lost track on the a.c. This bus was not equipped with a.c., or it has been removed?

And... .
Wouldn't rooftop units put it over 13'6". And you wouldn't want those units on the lower front roof for all the upper deck passengers to see.

This bus is shorter than you think... lots of space up there, just butt ugly.

Bus has AC Stan ... after conversion the question is will it do the job without some additional, strategically placed BTU's. and yes, one on the lower roof messes with scenery from the Panorama Sky View Ports.

The original A/C was run by a small diesel engine in one of the bays... Is that still there? I'm not too sure about any of that still being useful, but that bay may be where the Whisperer wants to put a generator.

Look around the internet and the split A/C can be bought in 110v or 220v, IDK how low you'll drop her when parked, but a modified floor in a bay might allow the heat from the condensing unit to be blown downward and a pan could be made to direct it out from under the bus (think hood scoop, bolted upside down and the condensing unit laid flat on the floor). I bet this could be done with a big pan and only give up a couple inches of ground clearance.

You might even make something work by rehanging a bay door to be able to kick out and do the job when parked.

If a ducted system is used, the only way I would do it is running through the floor, with a catch trough to control condensate water to several drains... It may not be as efficient, but at least would avoid the ugly profile on the roof.

Some of those coaches had a spare tire bay behind the front bumper. If yours has one, maybe that space could be repurposed for a remote condenser.

In any case if you had to use part of a bay, it could be isolated and vented for outside intake and exhaust air for the condenser. The generator requires similar treatment.

I don't think that is the case with this bus, the Flexble VL100 (scenic look alike) had the spare tire compartment. That doesn't mean that there isn't a bunch of unused space available.

This bus, to be really comfortable, needs an HVAC plan that works good sitting still, plugged in to shore power, running on the generator when no shore power is available... and, very important, when driving. Some thought should be given to warming/cooling the driver's area without worrying about cooling the back when in motion.

Hybrids and electric cars are using electric compressors, there may not be a ready made aftermarket system yet, but the idea makes perfect sense for this sort of application... How do you feel about a custom 40v+ DC system? OK, back to more practical, I wonder if something like a roof top unit, could be hung upside down under there and work when driving... those units aren't all that complicated, to reconfigure one might be doable.

 

[amazinblue82]

Air Conditioning in a Scenicruiser - Southwest Scenics and

A blog on a SC site. Two responses, but just last year. Oh, yes, the original AC unit is still there and yes I doubt it "works" but we'll see what can be saved. Whisperer DID say 10 tons was a goal ... but engineered for compartmentalization and comfort NOT possible with the original system "as is" (or as it was):

Post 1: Lot's and lot's of people have worked on Air Conditioning the Scenicruiser, usually with mixed results. Some so called "Experts" saw the original system can never be made to work again, yet folks have done it. The mini-splits have been discussed and again, there have been some successful installations there as well.

I think everyone can agree that the "warts" on the roof, while functional, are just plain ugly and need to be avoided at ALL costs. We presently have 2 Scenic's in our shop and we need a solution for both of them.

Our own personal coach had two rooftop units on it. We removed the one from the upper deck because it just didn't work. We replaced it with a floor standing portable unit that vents out the window. While it works OK when parked, it can't keep up with the engine heat radiating up from the engine compartment in the back. It goes into thermal shut down. We do still have a roof unit on the lower deck. It does work reasonably well and it will keep things "Tolerable" if not "Comfortable" on the lower deck while driving down the road. Things like sun beating into the windshield and ambient temperature all factor into its marginal performance. Plus..... It's ugly and consumes one of the skylights.

So lets start throwing around some ideas here and see what we can come up with....


Post 2. I guess the first thing to deal with are the criteria we're designing around. The original Scenicruiser AC system was approximately 10 tons in size. A "Ton" in BTU speak is 12,000 btu's. I have no idea where that came from, but that's it. Your average rooftop Coleman type unit is about 13,000 btu. So having two of those on the roof is only 20% of what a Scenicruiser came with. Little wonder it's marginal, at best.

Now GM had some very different things to design around than we do and lacked some of the technology as well...

First off, They ONLY needed AC when the coach was running down the road. We, on the other hand, spend far more time parked and needing AC. So for us, an engine driven system just won't work.

second, they had 43 hot and sweaty people, all smoking, to contend with. We're not creating that extra body heat load and the smoking thing is less of, or no issue at all.

Third, the windows. Depending on the serial number of the coach, they had either single or dual pane side glass. While the dual pane was better, this was NOT modern "Thermopane" glass with an inert gas between the panes. It was just two pieces of glass with an air gap. Also, while tinted the glass had NO UV protection at all. The tinting only reduced the visible lite and did nothing to reject heat. When we replaced our upper windshields with plastic, the temperature on the upper deck dropped 20 degrees. The plastic was not only a darker tint, it also had a built in UV filter quality.

We're in the process of replacing our dual pane side windows as well with darker tint, UV glass. The addition of curtains also had a significant impact on the heat coming in.

So, The bottom line is... we probably don't need 10 tons of AC capacity like the original setup. Thats a good thing too, because the power required to make 10 tons of cold is huge!! I doubt any of us have a generator with enough capacity to run a 10 ton compressor. This now begs the question, how much do we need.?

I've spoken to a lot of AC folks, including some from the Carrier Corp. They talk of complicated calculations like window area, roof area, insulation values etc etc etc..... While I don't doubt all that has some merit and probably could be calculated to within a fraction of a BTU, I frankly don't think all that is necessary.

Considering that we're all going to try to use some of what we've got already, don't have unlimited budgets to buy the newest and latest and greatest components and this is a DIY kind of project, I vote for SWAG'ing it. ​

 

[amazinblue82]

fun diversion. 1,001 Scencruisers were built. Although Jeff actually made post #1,001, it looks like I did it

Anyway, marking this "one-time-only" event in the life of this thread with this screenc apture.

 

[65 500]

Getting a load calculation might be a good idea to get you in the ball park for the size you will need, you don't want to be too big, or too small, by a large margin. Although I think I would error on the side of too big, if it were me. Also I don't see why a ducted system wouldn't be very doable, it would just be a matter of sacrificing space for it. 120,000 BTU's seems like a huge amount to me for the square footage you're dealing with, but I don't know how much heat gets into the bus from the drive train and other heat generators, or how well any of it was insulated, if at all, originally.
Also, instead of a diesel generator driving an electric motor driving a compressor for the A/C, does anyone make a diesel powered compressor for A/C's, and leave the generator, and electric motor out of it all together? I don't know if any of that would work, but just throwing it out there. Good luck with the bus, it looks like a cool project.

 

[amazinblue82]

Getting a load calculation might be a good idea to get you in the ball park for the size you will need, you don't want to be too big, or too small, by a large margin. Although I think I would error on the side of too big, if it were me. Also I don't see why a ducted system wouldn't be very doable, it would just be a matter of sacrificing space for it. 120,000 BTU's seems like a huge amount to me for the square footage you're dealing with, but I don't know how much heat gets into the bus from the drive train and other heat generators, or how well any of it was insulated, if at all, originally.
Also, instead of a diesel generator driving an electric motor driving a compressor for the A/C, does anyone make a diesel powered compressor for A/C's, and leave the generator, and electric motor out of it all together? I don't know if any of that would work, but just throwing it out there. Good luck with the bus, it looks like a cool project.

thanks chief. good advice.

 

[twostick]

Getting a load calculation might be a good idea to get you in the ball park for the size you will need, you don't want to be too big, or too small, by a large margin. Although I think I would error on the side of too big, if it were me. Also I don't see why a ducted system wouldn't be very doable, it would just be a matter of sacrificing space for it. 120,000 BTU's seems like a huge amount to me for the square footage you're dealing with, but I don't know how much heat gets into the bus from the drive train and other heat generators, or how well any of it was insulated, if at all, originally.
Also, instead of a diesel generator driving an electric motor driving a compressor for the A/C, does anyone make a diesel powered compressor for A/C's, and leave the generator, and electric motor out of it all together? I don't know if any of that would work, but just throwing it out there. Good luck with the bus, it looks like a cool project.

The diesel electric option allows you to run the same system on shore power too.

Early coaches had a separate small engine to run the AC compressor.

Kevin

 

[65 500]

The diesel electric option allows you to run the same system on shore power too.
Kevin

Good point.

 

[amazinblue82]

Don't forget to leave room for this... preferably on a slide out tray.

RV QD 8000 | Cummins Inc.

View attachment 238239

The Price? ~$10 Large new, half that used.

 

[commando1]

they had 43 hot and sweaty people, all smoking

Ahhhhhh. ... Those were the good old days..

 

[commando1]

The Price? ~$10 Large new, half that used.

Face it, Ray. You're now into this BIG TIME.

 

[amazinblue82]

Face it, Ray. You're now into this BIG TIME.

View attachment 238806

yeah Stan ur right.

but if buck rwenty five over 3 years dont get it ... then yep my dream wrote a check my a** cant cash. Chili Palmer will be looking for me.

seriously on paper this deal works within the budget. Whisperer has done dozens of projects but (proximity too of course) his structural blessing and well preserved (decades indoors) condition of this one was what i needed to wade into the "money pool" about waist deep we hope.

 

[commando1]

I think you picked an ABSOLUTE genuine winner with this bus.
AND, you're a lucky guy to have The Whisperer.
This adventure is going to be awesome, for sure.

 

[300rag]

The Price? ~$10 Large new, half that used.

View attachment 238778

I never suggested that they were inexpensive, but they are fairly quiet. They are the most common factory installed units in diesel pushers.

 

[amazinblue82]

I never suggested that they were inexpensive, but they are fairly quiet. They are the most common factory installed units in diesel pushers.

Wasnt dissin' you or the price chief. Its a good part

i wanna get the best stuff I can get for (1) mechanicals, (2) sanitary systems, (3) power/signal distribution, and (4) HVAC is there my early spending is going.

30% of project budget is there, including acquisition/transport, 40% in the interior, 20% in the Exterior, and 10% contingency.

 

[300rag]

...and 10% contingency.

You wouldn't just have it at 10% if it was a C would you?

 

[amazinblue82]

You wouldn't just have it at 10% if it was a C would you?

 

[azblackhemi]

Here's another cool old bus.
favorite this post ***RARE , RARE, RARE 1950 FLXIBLE MOTOR HOME** - $3850 (CENTRAL PHX) hide this posting
image 1 of 10

© craigslist - Map data © OpenStreetMap
(google map)

1950 FLXIBLE

condition: good
cylinders: other
drive: rwd
fuel: gas
size / dimensions: 33 FT
transmission: manual

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO OWN A VERY RARE AND; COLLECTIBLE FACTORY RECREATIONAL MOTOR COACH, ALL ORIGINAL ***$5500 obo *****IT NEEDS AN ENGINE and TLC TO MAKE IT ROADWORTHY****CLEAN ARIZONA TITLE***A GREAT SWAP MEET VEHICLE OR GO WITH MODERN DRIVE TRAIN**GOOGLE FLXIBLE MOTOR COACH AND SEE THE VERY INTERESTING HISTORY OF THE COMPANY***I HAVE THE TWO BACK BODY PANELS****DELIVERY POSSIBLE FOR A FEE******

 

[commando1]

We can stop now, Chris...

 

[azblackhemi]

We can stop now, Chris...

But it's so much fun, do I have to? I guess 21 years working on buses means it's in my blood.

 

[300rag]

But it's so much fun, do I have to? I guess 21 years working on buses means it's in my blood.

Buy one and see who gets done first.