Store bought or homemade tape for timing?

[GG-1]

GG, I think you've got the attention of some of the guys that can help you through this... New thread or continue this one is up to you.

BTW, the "fancy" timing light is actually pretty cool and just a little from someone that uses a timing light they bought at Sears back in the seventies. I may have to pry open my wallet for one like yours someday.

Thanks John, Just know you're very welcome to come borrow mine any time(ing).

 

[GG-1]

Hey! I just spotted the dial telephone!

That's my 1956 Western Electric 500 rotary! Got a box of 5 old phones for free on craigslist.. learned to service them all back to health and they cleaned up and operate beautifully now. I've just put them into service off an actual copper verizon landline.. recently finished wiring my whole apartment up with modular jacks. 3 black Western Electric rotaries from the 50s, and two Stromberg Carlsons; one 1967 green wall rotary & one cream 1968 desk push button. I love 'em.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Phone with a wire?

 

[GG-1]

Phone with a wire?

Haha, yes... and solid brass bell ringers.. and a dial tone.

 

[GG-1]

Hey GG-1, I've been trying to keep tabs on your car and what you're doing to her. Don't feel too bad about buying tools, even fancy ones... they will eventually pay for themselves in saved labor, as you seem to understand.

My one suggestion at this moment would be to stick with one thread for all of your issues. I know it seems like breaking things down to separate threads helps clear the issues... but when diagnosing a car, it is way better to sort through too much info than too little. The internet is really an awful way to diagnose and the issues easily get clouded by the "this worked for me" suggestions folks like to put out there.

You also may not realize that certain symptoms can be caused by things you thought were unrelated. We often start the newbies off with an engine needs proper air, fuel, compression and ignition to run... and then work our way through the possibilities of whats wrong, usually by diagnosis only... until we prove something needs attention.

That said, for driveability issues, tune up parts are often due for replacement when a car isn't running well... if you see something needs attention, it may not be your only problem, but at least it was needed for maintenance and helps eliminate it as an issue.

Well, thanks for paying attention to my bop around C-town! I'm sure when you hear the full story you'll begin making some connections based on raw experience. I'd much rather consolidate all the issues anyway.. present the car to everyone as an entire system. Im really looking forward to getting into this with you guys. It may be a couple of days before I find the time to sit down and type it all out, either here or on a new designated FCBO thread. I'm also waiting on items to arrive which will aid in diagnostics. The hardest part of all this(besides not driving her each day) is the distance I've gotta travel to work on her.. like I said she's the only car I have so it's 1.5 hours from my apartment in Brooklyn by subway, then transfer to railway up to North White Plains to get to her. Day trips, and back home that night. So you guys know when you see me here on the forums, and I say I'm at the car troubleshooting something, it's not a short casual stroll from my supper table to the attached garage! I wish. So I make it work, just have to plan so far ahead of time to get the most out of each trip.

 

[GG-1]

I really wish I could lay my hands on an old Sun engine analyzer.

That sounds useful.. Ebay?
The handy, dandy SS-400:

These seem to still be sitting around and up for grabs.

 

[GG-1]

GG1, no problem. Just a couple of things to add to this, some of us, myself included worked on these cars when they were brand new for a living. I don't know how many times I have had arguments with new "Tech's" over an older car. I have had to remind them that I was doing it before they were a gleam in their fathers eyes.
Personally I enjoy passing on the things I have learned over the years, and yes I have made many costly mistakes in my career. I try to keep others from doing that. Chrysler guys are a special breed, you will enjoy being here with us.
Bill

Well thank you Bill, I personally enjoy that you personally enjoy it... when they were new, huh.. I'm definitely in the right place!

 

[commando1]

just a little from someone that uses a timing light they bought at Sears back in the seventies.

Same here but I never use it.
1. Accelerate hard. No pinging? Advance it a smidgeon.
2. Repeat.
3. Accelerate hard. Pinging? Retard it just a smidgen .
4 Accelerate hard. No pinging? Timing set.

 

[GG-1]

Hello!
You guys are gonna love this one.
Finally, after 2 weeks of ordering and gathering up parts and tools to troubleshoot and run full top end diagnostics, I get up to the garage yesterday to begin work, and decide to start by pulling the spark plugs to see what they can tell me.
Now that I know the firing order, I followed the wires from distributor to cylinders pulling each plug along the way. Well wouldn't ya know, numbers 6 & 7 had been switched! By who I dont know. But as you can see in the photo they did not like their position. Fouled. Is it possible that running it while they were crossed caused serious damage to the engine? During the last year I ran it many times while parked for 30 minutes at a time about once month.. gave it throttle/revved it a few times here and there.. drove it up and down the street a few times(5-6) times where it displayed backfiring and total lack of power.. even went WOT a couple of times, only to see it go limp. So now, before attempting to start her, I gapped and installed a new set of plugs, installed a new set of wires correctly, replaced the points and condenser with ones of a higher quality(nos blue streaks), lubricated cam, block and felt "wick", oiled oiler on side of distributor and also 2 drops on the felt wick atop cam shaft, cleaned and lubricated the distributor from the breaker plate on up(everything seems to be moving as it should).. installed new lead wire(old one cracked), cleaned all connections on/to factory ignition coil, replaced vacuum advance with a good NOS Mopar unit. Then, with the distributor cap off, (I'm solo here), I got in the car and slightly cranked motor several times to get the points block to get up on the distributor cam lobe in order to open the contacts to their widest before setting the gap to spec at .017. This took several attempts, and even though it finally appeared to be up on the lobe, the points were still closed.. So I set the gap at .017 with feeler gauge anyway, clamped the cap back on and went to fire her up.
When I turned the key it cranked for a while but would not fire. I forgot to put the rotor back on. Tried again.. strong cranking action but no start. So I moved all the wires one over counterclockwise on the cap, keeping the order correct.. thinking the number one tower should be pointing more towards the number one cylinder(as long as firing order is correct, does position on cap really matter? It is not the factory cap btw). Got in and started cranking again.. after several times she started up. A little rough for a moment, but the engine running sounded very strong-- really came to life! Headlamps were very bright and steady at idle and even with throttle. Throttle seems stronger, powerful and smoother. Engine isn't shaking at all. While still parked I went through the gears, and at first the car did not kick forward/ backward like it should.. but the second run through them it did just that. Also, each time I turned the key off and restarted she fired right up, full of life, unlike anytime since I got her. The amp gauge on dash was at first pinned way over to the right, but as she ran more, the needle slowly moved back closer to center.. the needle does jump when the the blinkers or hazards are on, and they blink very fast. I think the electrical stuff is a symptom of not driving the car enough(at all!), and I have a feeling that once back on the road these ills will go away. Still, it sounds a bit off, and idle seems to stay a bit too high. Mixture screw adjustment had no effect. I think I need to hand crank the engine via crankshaft bolt while looking at the distributor cam position to get points gap correct.. start her up again, then check dwell. I'm also thinking I should use my vacuum gauge to do initial tune on carb idle mixture, idle speed etc.. check system vacuum pressure, and then finally check and set total timing with my fancy virgin gun. I've read that timing is always the last thing to set when tuning an engine, and that anytime you change or reset ignition points, you must also reset timing.

I still need to take her out to see if the incorrect plug order played into my drivability issues. I would like to get her idling at the spec rpms and with timing correct before taking her for a test spin.. but after finding that spark plug switcheroo, I am very optimistic. I feel it might just be a matter of a good tuning from here on out.. starting with factory specs then tuning for a bit more performance later on.
All ideas and questions welcome.. please!

Question: Will hand cranking to turn distributor shaft screw up/bend valves/valve timing?

Another question: Do I really need to find top dead center on my number one cylinder before setting timing(since it was already set at the factory 14,000 miles ago.. and she already starts up)?
Better yet, do I need to plug my number one wire into the terminal that the rotor points at? Should I slowly crank engine to TDC first and then look at rotor position, and rearrange wires accordingly if necessary? Right now the rotor does not point to the number one wire... it seems random. Am I overthinking this??? As far as I know the distributor has not ever been removed since factory build.


Thanks in advance everyone.

Alex/GG

 

[cantflip]

Sounds to me like you solved your problem... I may need to reread, but the rest seems like your looking to cause more.

" I get up to the garage yesterday to begin work, and decide to start by pulling the spark plugs to see what they can tell me."
Excellent starting point
" Is it possible that running it while they were crossed caused serious damage to the engine?"
Yes, but driving her is the only way you're going to find out. If you have damage... it's most likely rod bearings getting hammered... you'll know if she starts knocking someday that this was a contributing factor.
So I moved all the wires one over counterclockwise on the cap, keeping the order correct.. thinking the number one tower should be pointing more towards the number one cylinder(as long as firing order is correct, does position on cap really matter?
Ah hah... this is the part I skipped the first read through... This is a problem. On a guess, I would say the timing was fooled with and that's why it was so far off. Correct the wires and reset timing... if the distributor is in approximately it's proper position, you're done.

If the distributor is way off, after resetting the timing, the timing chain most likely has skipped a tooth... more fun working on the car for you. Doubtful at your mileage.
I think the electrical stuff is a symptom of not driving the car enough(at all!), and I have a feeling that once back on the road these ills will go away.
I agree
Still, it sounds a bit off, and idle seems to stay a bit too high. Mixture screw adjustment had no effect.
Idle speed is changed by adjusting the throttle stop screw, the mixture screws are for changing the idle air/fuel mixture. Since you played with them... gently wind them in to bottom and turn out 2 full turns. This gets you a ballpark starting point only, you still get to dial this in too.
I still need to take her out to see if the incorrect plug order played into my drivability issues.
Insert sarcastic comment here...

Question: Will hand cranking to turn distributor shaft screw up/bend valves/valve timing?
Always turn an engine in it's operating rotation, and you can turn anything from the crankshaft.

Another question: Do I really need to find top dead center on my number one cylinder before setting timing(since it was already set at the factory 14,000 miles ago.. and she already starts up)?
Better yet, do I need to plug my number one wire into the terminal that the rotor points at? Should I slowly crank engine to TDC first and then look at rotor position, and rearrange wires accordingly if necessary?
Yes... see the first reply in red...
Right now the rotor does not point to the number one wire... it seems random. Am I overthinking this???
It's mechanical, I doubt it's random where it points... there is a randomness to where the engine stops cranking.
As far as I know the distributor has not ever been removed since factory build.
Probably correct with your car's super low mileage, but no longer matters since you know the car has been touched. The only stuff left to do is read your FSM and continue to put things back to right.

 

[Big_John]

Everything that Jeff said x2.

I'm also thinking I should use my vacuum gauge to do initial tune on carb idle mixture, idle speed etc.. check system vacuum pressure, and then finally check and set total timing with my fancy virgin gun. I've read that timing is always the last thing to set when tuning an engine, and that anytime you change or reset ignition points, you must also reset timing.

You want to set your timing now. Recheck it when you are done, but since it will affect how everything else runs, you need to set it now before you start changing anything else.

 

[traintech55]

EXCELLENT REPLY OLD PAL.

Alex, from your last post your charging system is working correctly also, the ammeter gauge will move with the varying of load on the system.

Finding true T.D.C. is a plus since the mark on the balancer can slip with age, always helpful to know.

Use a vacuum gauge and a good tach to set your idle mixture, keep both sides the same, (ex 3 turns out). then set the speed, if your idle is to high the mixture screws are useless as you have moved the throttle plates off the idle circuit. I always set my speed about 650 R.P.M. for non A/C, and 750 R.P.M. for A/C cars.

Also since this engine was running on crossed wires, I would change the oil and filter, it could have gotten diluted with gas so a good measure.

 

[GG-1]

Thanks for the feedback!
I'll just hope for the best as far as rod bearing or any other damage from crossed wires.
My biggest concern now is finding number one tower on the distributor cap.. and to confirm, I should:
1. Find TDC by first pulling #1 spark plug.
2. Hand crank motor until that piston comes to top of the cylinder, just before it goes back down.
3. Check timing mark on harmonic balancer for it to line up at zero degrees.
3. Check rotor position on distributor and place number one wire wherever this points.

Is there another way to determine where the number one terminal is on the distributor cap? I would think this is a standard spec, no? I can not find this position in my FSM.
The motor and distributor have not been changed/replaced/altered.
I'm now thinking I should not have moved all the wires over one.. which was prompted by excessive cranking and no fire up, after order was restored to the cylinders. It cranked excessively again but eventually fired up. I'm now thoroughly confused.

 

[GG-1]

Everything that Jeff said x2.



You want to set your timing now. Recheck it when you are done, but since it will affect how everything else runs, you need to set it now before you start changing anything else.

Thank you John.. Ok, I trust you.. but everything I've read on the google says that if your idle speed is too fast, then my timing reading will not be accurate. Is this right?

 

[GG-1]

EXCELLENT REPLY OLD PAL.

Alex, from your last post your charging system is working correctly also, the ammeter gauge will move with the varying of load on the system.

Finding true T.D.C. is a plus since the mark on the balancer can slip with age, always helpful to know.

Use a vacuum gauge and a good tach to set your idle mixture, keep both sides the same, (ex 3 turns out). then set the speed, if your idle is to high the mixture screws are useless as you have moved the throttle plates off the idle circuit. I always set my speed about 650 R.P.M. for non A/C, and 750 R.P.M. for A/C cars.

Also since this engine was running on crossed wires, I would change the oil and filter, it could have gotten diluted with gas so a good measure.

Thanks,
So set my rpms at 650 to start using the throttle speed screw.. then go to set my idle mixture, say 2 turns out to start.
(I say 650 since my a/c belt is currently removed)

Then set timing?

 

[Big_John]

Thank you John.. Ok, I trust you.. but everything I've read on the google says that if your idle speed is too fast, then my timing reading will not be accurate. Is this right?

Yes, but it's also true that the idle speed can be high because the timing is too far advanced.

It all works together.

 

[GG-1]

Yes, but it's also true that the idle speed can be high because the timing is too far advanced.

It all works together.

I see, so a little back and forth may be required.

 

[Big_John]

I just reread a few things here...

When you are working on a problem, it's usually best to attack one issue at a time.

In your case, your problem has been 100% ignition related. You caught that the firing order was out and that's something that would stump a lot of folks for a while, so "you done good".

So with that in mind, work on that first. If you start adjusting the carb now, you may end up with a lot of extra work going back and forth. Get your timing right first. This is the simplest action that you can take now and if the timing isn't right, you'll drive yourself nuts trying to get the carb right.

Hook up the timing light and check where it is right now... Make a mental note of it because the car is running and you may need to come back to that setting. Loosen the clamp bolt just enough so the distributor you can turn the distributor and play with it a little.... See if the idle speed comes down when you turn it.

Now set the timing at the factory spec and see how it runs.

If you may not want to fool with the carb at this point if the car is running OK. You may want to drive it a bit and run some fresh gas through it.

If you decide to adjust the carb, my suggestion is this.... With the car off, turn the idle screws in all the way AND COUNT HOW MANY TURNS to do that. Again... this is to return the car to your starting point. Turn them back to exactly where you found them and then adjust with your vacuum gauge.

It is important to remember that your car is running the way it is... You always want to be able to return to your baseline if things go sideways on you.

 

[GG-1]

Hello all, so I am at the car now and have gapped my points to spec (.017)
Also found TDC by hand turning crank, and balancer lined up perfectly with 0 degrees! This also turned rotor to point directly at where I already had number one wire on distributor/cap. Great! Next I hooked up my fancy timing light to first check dwell, then timing. I turned the key and she fired up instantly. RPMs on the gun were at 1250 at first.. then kicked down to 900, then kicked down/bottomed out to between 605 and 618.. she sounded nice at 900 but she definitely needs more than 600. Once at operating temp I checked dwell and it was at 26 degrees steady.. FSM spec is 28-32..
The book says to readjust dwell within spec before setting timing.. so what do I do now???

 

[GG-1]

So I'm leaving dwell alone for now. With the rpms being so low at 600, I pulled throttle to increase rpms to 2000.. when I let the throttle go, it idled down to 700rpm with 12.8 degrees. It was running beautifully. Then I messed up my timing and can't figure out how! It was perfect I think until i loosened the distributor clamp down bolt to play around with rpms.. get them down a bit as John suggested... it stalled out and i can't get a degree reading at all, it it stuck at 00 on the gun display.. suddenly it went from perfection to really bad.. i should have listened to my first instinct and left the distributor alone and went to the carb to adjust rpm with idle screw first.. now i have no idea where to go with it. I thought I had a grasp on this timing thing before starting but I am completely lost on it right now.. I turned the car off because it keeps stalling. As John just warned, "you want to be able to return to baseline in case things go sideways in you" Well things just went sideways!