The Difference Between a Good Paint Job and a FAB! Paint Job

[saforwardlook]

The problem I have with that definition is that only in the case of a one-man shop would a "painter" do all that work. It's like saying the same guy who pours the foundation is also doing the finish carpentry.

In a real production shop, a painter doesn't do anything but mix paint and spray. He might be expected to color sand and buff. Other, lesser-paid people are the ones spreading/sanding filler, fitting panels, etc.

If you can drop a car off at a shop that's ready-for-paint, you should not be looking at a $10,000 expense. Conversely, if you drop off a rusty beater, expect to pay far more.

I guess it depends on what one means by "paint my car". I assumed it was for a complete body and paint work effort.

I would not have one of my cars "painted" by an assembly line of different people who do different tasks towards completion of a complete body and paint project. They guy I use does it all, from cutting out the rust, welding, body work and painting. That way I know that the perfectionism he embodies is present in every step and not variable among different people doing various tasks. Like I said, I was assuming show quality results. I generally do not restore rusty cars because I would never feel good about them if they were a patchwork quilt of welded panels. The cars I pursue generally have very little to no rust to begin with, which is why my range of cost is not too broad.

 

[Carmine]

I guess it depends on what one means by "paint my car". I assumed it was for a complete body and paint work effort.

I would not have one of my cars "painted" by an assembly line of different people who do different tasks towards completion of a complete body and paint project. They guy I use does it all, from cutting out the rust, welding, body work and painting. That way I know that the perfectionism he embodies is present in every step and not variable among different people doing various tasks. Like I said, I was assuming show quality results. I generally do not restore rusty cars because I would never feel good about them if they were a patchwork quilt of welded panels. The cars I pursue generally have very little to no rust to begin with, which is why my range of cost is not too broad.

Yes, perhaps.

But few shops work that way, even those restoration shops with excellent reputations, and regardless of whether or not rust repair is done. If the shop is being run as a business, not as a hobby or a one-man-show, there is one painter who is kept busy by a crew working multiple vehicles. The painter is overseesing the quality of work being done, but his time is too valuable to be spending hours on the most tedious tasks. For example:


Automotive Painter's Helper

We are a family owned business that has been in the automotive business for over 3 generations. Job Responsibilities include (but are not limited to):

• Assists lead painter in the preparation of painting by masking, priming, sanding vehicles
• Polishes final coat of paint
• Keep painter aware of work status
• Assist the painter as necessary
• May remove and replace chrome molding and trim
• Comply with all federal laws and regulations and with all company policies
• Maintain a work area that is clean and safe

Vs.


The primary responsibilities of this position include repairing and painting automotive cosmetic damage in both solvent and water based basecoat/clearcoat systems. Our Paint Technicians receive all the tools and supplies needed for the job.

• Inspect vehicle body surface to be painted for repair, prepping and/or buffing defects
• Mix specific colors using standard formulas or color charts
• Perform paint repairs and refinishing to current company standards using spray-painting equipment, power tools and work aids utilizing specific surface preparation and painting techniques
• Sand, mask, blend and polish finish. Apply or retouch paint as necessary.

To me, when you say "paint a car", you're talking about job #2. There are just too many variables involved in the prep to get from "in-the-door" to "in-the-booth" to mix the work and costs involved. If you separate the two, "paint" becomes apples-to-apples with the only cost difference being skill and materials.

In the case of the DeSoto I've posted, the car arrived at the paint shop as a shell, with most all the bodywork complete (I'm sure there was some prep immediately before the booth, just by nature of handling) Then it went back to the owner for reassembly.

It's not about a difference in quality "showcar" vs. "amateur", just the difference between bodywork and paint. I especially make the distinction because most people here are doing as much work themselves as possible, not dropping a car off as-is and returning months later. If this were an E-body page, perhaps that would be different.

 

[tbm3fan]

....thats what? 60k for the paintjob? going off of 80$/h or so!? But sure is shiney, wow! Definitely admire this.

Ultimately how much you spend on laying down the paint and then fine tuning the paint can vary widely. Our cars never came with a mirror finish. Not ever. While it is tempting to get a mirror finish so you could read a newspaper in the reflection I have always resisted that. I shoot for a little orange peel. In fact even when I have looked at a new Porsche, BMW or Mercedes of any year they all had some orange peel. No manufacturer is going to cut and buff line cars out. I guess I could be called a stickler for some orange peel and usually walk by mirror finish stock cars at shows.

 

[Knebel]

its still somewhat mindblowing to me. Even spending $10000 on prep and paint...not even "show quality" and then have some neighbours kid run their bike into it. Not so much the money but the time involved...just wow!

 

[tbm3fan]

You appear to be very much in the know on this subject. Can you tell me more about costs? Thanks

Well, for one, I didn't start from scratch. I already had the equipment and most all the ancillary materials and electric tools. If starting from scratch my HLVP system cost $1400. Between the Makita 9227 rotary polisher, 6040BO random orbital polisher, Flex VRG random orbital, 3M random orbital sanding polisher for clear coat discs and a stud welder you have another $1600. I don't bother with Harbor Freight on tools like these which will last my lifetime. Then there are the metal working tools, block sanding tools, many different grades of sand paper, measuring cups, fillers could be another $750. Last my Lincoln Mig 140 where I got a great deal for $450 new.

Since I had all that stuff all I needed to paint the Dodge was PPG DCC Concept at $150/gallon and epoxy primer at around $100/gallon. Time was easily 100 hours by me as a guess since I didn't keep count as who would be paying me by the hour anyway?

Fortunately none of the cars I have done have had any serious rust issues. The exception will be the Park Lane which has some pinholes in both rear quarters behind the wheel. The holes have been stabilized and not changed over the last 6 years. Maybe some pinholes in the Dutchman's panel just behind the rear vent to deal with.

 

[saforwardlook]

My cars will be straight and flat with some slight orange peel, and they may well be single stage paint jobs (still deciding that as orange peel can still be achieved with the clear too) and they will still have proper reflections. I don't want my cars going through a production body shop. If you want to repair your 2016 F150 Ford truck after being scraped down the side or something, I am sure their work would be fine. But otherwise, I doubt their results will be what I want. The body and paint work on my cars will not exceed the $12 - 15K tab. I have already done some, so I have some idea of what I am doing and the competence of my friend doing the work. He is an avid Mopar guy and appreciates the C bodies even though his favorites are the 68-73 Chargers and other B bodies. He also has 30 years experience doing this work.

 

[Carmine]

My cars will be straight and flat with some slight orange peel, and they may well be single stage paint jobs (still deciding that as orange peel can still be achieved with the clear too) and they will still have proper reflections. I don't want my cars going through a production body shop. If you want to repair your 2016 F150 Ford truck after being scraped down the side or something, I am sure their work would be fine. But otherwise, I doubt their results will be what I want. The body and paint work on my cars will not exceed the $12 - 15K tab. I have already done some, so I have some idea of what I am doing and the competence of my friend doing the work. He is an avid Mopar guy and appreciates the C bodies even though his favorites are the 68-73 Chargers and other B bodies. He also has 30 years experience doing this work.

That's nice Steve. But the rest of the world won't be going to see your friend who appreciates C-bodies. And it's wrong to pompously denigrate anything else as an Earl Schieb-style operation that's only fit to crap out insurance work on F-150's. I'm going to guess that most of the restored cars at concours events came from shops where the painter doesn't hammer out dents or sand filler. I'm not saying "your friend" system isn't good, I'm saying it's not typical.

I have zero connection to the resto shop I randomly chose from an ad posted below, but my guess is that with 20+ employees, there is a division of labor in the shop.

I believe we have a person who paints houses on the board. I'm sure there is a price to just paint a house, and another to paint and repair rotted fascia boards... He might not even do that work, farming it out to someone else because it's not the optimal use of his time.

If someone doesn't do their own work, it's probably best to simply budget X dollars for "cosmetics" and leave it at that.

 

[commando1]

Our cars never came with a mirror finish. Not ever.

 

[jake]

15,000 for a paint job, huh, I'll show them.

 

[commando1]

Read MOPARTS' Paint On A Budget epic thread. It could be A NY Times best seller.
Started many years ago about a guy with a can of Rustoleum and a roller and it's still going.

 

[polara71]

Fratzog Fred painted his 70 Polara in his 10 x 20 attached garage. . He won several events including a 1st place at Carlisle and made the cover of Collectible Automobile.

Best of my recollection, it was his first venture.

 

[CBODY67]

I am good at mechanical and small detail work, but body work is not my forte.
I had to send the body off. Here is what was done at very reputable shop specializing in classic cars and customs.
Trunk pan re build,dent removal rear fenders from loose jack, dent removal r front fender from a Bobcat backing into it, l front fender pushed back, rear window rust cut out and repaired, rear fender behind wheel wells re-built ( no repair panels available), tail light panel rebuilt. Mount on rotisserie ( car was completely dissasembled by me prior to taking for body work). Sand blasted, epoxied, repaired, sanded sanded again sanded again...., sound deadner sprayed, under side and firewall painted, interior painted, lowered on front frame with engine and transmission and rear end install so front fenders could be installed (I had already rebuilt and detailed the rear end, engine, transmission,and frame so not included in hours). Dry fit everything, more priming and sanding, final sanding, clean and mask. Base coat clear coats. Sanding and polishing and vinyl top installed.

$7600 in materials and 604 hours. It was over 10 years staring and stopping as funds and life allowed. I believe there was over 150 hours of blocking and sanding. Once in a lifetime project to this level. But I am happy with the results.

Taking it home
View attachment 208271
Underneath
View attachment 208272

Straight body & mirror finish View attachment 208273
Re-fabrication if trunk floor
View attachment 208274

Straighter than ANY Chrysler body I've ever seen, from the factory! Looks great!

CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

To me, ONE thing to NOT say to a potential body shop in getting an older car painted is "I want to look like a show car. It's my baby", or similar. For some body shops, that can be an accurate reflection of what's "expected" to be spent on their work. To others, it's a "blank check". Which is why I'm more inclined to say "OEM quality in materials and workmanship" and NOT use the "show car" reference. THEN, ask what materials they normally use and how they hold up! And possibly ask for a guided tour to see the facilities and those working in it, for good measure. IF what you see in the metal work, block and prime, and final finish operations looks good, then you can talk "cost" for your particular vehicle. Larger sheet metal expanses take more time and money and materials, typically.

Most of us have known guys who do their own cars in their "garages" and have show-winnings to show for it. They usually do work for others, although full-restorations of "others'" cars might not be a good idea (zoning restrictions and such). Having "few person" shop can do great work just as a "multi-person" shop can, by observation. EACH person in each phase of the operation knows what's expected of them and needs to meet those expectations, or they'll do it over again (for not additional pay). IF the painter starts seeing too much "not done enough", that's where things stop until the concerns are remedied. Knowing full well which part of the operation is responsible for these things.

Modern paints also require a very dustless environment. This means a well-maintained/filtered downdraft spray booth. Not that earlier single-stage paints don't either! Acrylic enamel being more critical than any lacquer paint, as always.

In doing the metal work, panel gaps and body lines can be a little more finessed than the factory did, of course, but not everything can be "fixed" that way. Look down the side of the body of a '76 Chrysler and then a '76 Mercury. You'll probably see how the horizontal reflections on the Mercury are more consistent in flatness, from panel to panel, just as their factory pin stripes were always more accurate. Then look at a similar '76 Oldsmobile, for reference.

The factory paint "texture" is there to obscure any metal stamping surface issues, so the factory line workers only have to worry about panel gaps upon installation. Even the smoothest factory paint has some texture in it, if you look at it closely. I used to think that was due to robot spray nozzle issues, but with the newer "spinning bell" nozzles, that's not it. In other words, it's all carefully calibrated at the factory level to reduce production time, material costs, and environmental pollution issues.

On a more personal note, I know that IF I paid a large amount of money for a vehicle surface re-coat, then I'd need a hermetically-sealed space to park it! To protect my investment. But with a more "OEM-level" situation, appropriate protection would still be needed, but when it might get a door ding, a simple brush touch-up rather than a "panel repaint". AND, if that first wax job put some swirls in the paint, that can be dealt with. The smoother the paint is, the more "WOW!" factor it might have, but without excellent care, it could look just like that less expensive paint job that had had excellent care over the years. There's usually a "line" in there somewhere above which costs can escalate.

I know that everybody has their own orientations on these things, just that I shoot for something I feel is more attainable than a "show car finish", that I desire to pay for and be happy with. OEM quality can be a pretty good gauge, as OEM quality has increased over the years AND is something which most body shop operatives can understand and NOT charge extra for. That's just me. What others do is their deal, their money, their car, their dreams!

AND there's the issue of insurance coverage/repairs. Document all of your paint/body work for the vehicle, especially IF it was "above and beyond" the factory finish condition.

As a side note, when repainting a Mopar for MOPAR show winning capabilities, do NOT paint it like a GM or Ford car. Duplicate everything the factory did, not "remove it to make it look better", as many can tend to do. That means inspection stamps, paint daubs, etc. In the case of Wing Cars, all of the underbody primer over-sprays, too.

Car restoration can be a "money pit", by observation. Just know your limits vs. ultimate value of the completed vehicle (in more current times), IF that matters.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[tbm3fan]

As a side note, when repainting a Mopar for MOPAR show winning capabilities, do NOT paint it like a GM or Ford car. Duplicate everything the factory did, not "remove it to make it look better", as many can tend to do. That means inspection stamps, paint daubs, etc. In the case of Wing Cars, all of the underbody primer over-sprays, too.


CBODY67

I noticed that when painting the Polara. Unlike my original paint Park Lane and Cougar I noticed the very back end of the hood had serious surface rust. The back brace also has some serious looking paint drips. Obviously that hood was painted on the car while the Fords weren't as evidenced by good coverage back there and natural steel colored hinges. Well I certainly wasn't going to duplicate that lack of paint back there and then have surface rust along the back edge that would stare me in the face every time I got in the driver's seat. My one concession was not to remove the paint runs but sand gently around and over so the new paint would adhere and the drips preserved.

 

[polara71]

Do you really type all that out or copy and paste?

 

[CBODY67]

By observation, the factory "cut-in" operations could vary. With GM's black satin primer, it can give a "custom touch" of sorts as the primer starts to bleed though near the bottom edge of a panel, as it does on our '69 Chevy pickup.

In the '70s, from what I remember seeing, Ford products usually had the best quality "build" in the body shop operations area (paint, panel gaps, panel smoothness, etc.).

(finger action)

CBODY67

 

[saforwardlook]

That's nice Steve. But the rest of the world won't be going to see your friend who appreciates C-bodies. And it's wrong to pompously denigrate anything else as an Earl Schieb-style operation that's only fit to crap out insurance work on F-150's. I'm going to guess that most of the restored cars at concours events came from shops where the painter doesn't hammer out dents or sand filler. I'm not saying "your friend" system isn't good, I'm saying it's not typical.

I have zero connection to the resto shop I randomly chose from an ad posted below, but my guess is that with 20+ employees, there is a division of labor in the shop.

I believe we have a person who paints houses on the board. I'm sure there is a price to just paint a house, and another to paint and repair rotted fascia boards... He might not even do that work, farming it out to someone else because it's not the optimal use of his time.

If someone doesn't do their own work, it's probably best to simply budget X dollars for "cosmetics" and leave it at that.

View attachment 208335

View attachment 208336

My apologies if I came across "pompous". That was not my intent. I have just had it with body shops that claim to do good body work and have production systems like you describe to accomplish the work. The panels are usually not straight or wave free, the door/panel alignments are not good, and the steps in the process are often wrong in my opinion to save labor hours, wherein the insides of the front of the doors are not painted well, the assembly order compromises the completeness of coverage of some inner areas that the factory managed to get, and on and on. And then bumps in the paint start to form years later where solvents have reacted within the bondo/primer/paint over time because of quick processes that don't allow enough drying time (hard to do when you have a shop of 20 people that can't let cars sit around for 3 months to dry properly and still make money).

I have seen a lot of car guys at shows who have "repainted" (including body work) cars that they delight in and win first place awards at the shows. But when I look at some of these cars, I would not be satisfied with them - waves are clearly present and they just don't realize it and think it is great because it is shiny and pretty. I just keep my mouth shut and put these in my memory banks. Sorry, thats not me, and sorry also if that seems pompous. I just want my cars to look real showroom and yet not over restored. You have seen them in photos at least.

The shop you reference seems to be one like we do have here in Southern California, called Motech. They do really good work as far as I have seen though, but their prices are above $100/hour. And they do specialize in Mopar, so they have some familiarity with how they ought to look already. They don't have a big crew, but one that is pretty competent it seems. I doubt the shop with 20 guys doing all makes of restorations doing the work will know Mopars very well. But Motech does, but would end up costing me way more than my guy, so I prefer going to a single good guy who I can trust to do every step the way I want it and not wonder what is going on when I am not there. I would likely consider Motech if I didn't have the guy that I am using. Guys like I employ are not plentiful, but they are out there if you search and are patient (they have long waiting lines). But if you want a team of probably competent guys working on your car, all I can say is good luck for a guy like me. I have seen their results many times, and I don't like them. But they may be fine for others. I guess we just have to disagree on this one, or I am way more fussy or whatever. When I was younger, I painted a couple of my cars myself, and did some of the body work too, but not all of it in most cases where rust repair was required. My 300C and 300H are a couple of them (they required no rust repair) but I also had a very experienced paint and body guy there when I did both of them to guide me in all the steps. I have seen a lot and have some clue what I am looking at. So I am confident of what I am saying and sorry if it is intrepreted as "pompous". I would just like others to be aware of the pros/cons of each choice so they will get what they want - i.e. trying to be helpful. Not everyone has to have a show car and that is fine. To each his own.

 

[tbm3fan]

Panels weren't always perfect on our cars off the line either. Gaps were nowhere near precise and I'm sure panels did have some waves already after being hung on the car. Now look at this picture and tell me what might those two hammers be used for other than tapping (hopefully) panels for better alignment after being bolted onto the unibody. You look at the back end of my 68 Mustang and the alignment of the trunk lid to quarters, especially quarter extensions to quarters, and you go sheeeeet not even close! Yet that is factory and I know of those who would mig fill and then drill new holes to mount the extensions perfectly.

 

[CBODY67]

Each of us has our own sensitivity levels. The people we might choose to do our work for us should be people we're comfortable with and who can be trusted to do what they claim they will do, just as they need to be comfortable with US, too. AND the fact that it might take US dropping in every so often to see what's going on or has been done.

It seems that most of the restoration shops I know of in the DFW area are smaller shops in smaller towns. Usually fewer than 8 or so employees. They get plenty of work via referrals, so no advertising is really needed (nor could be afforded by many). Most specialize in one brand of vehicle, but others don't. "Nothing happens over-night". IF some work goes out to another vendor, it's somebody that has done good work for them in the past.

There are lots of body shops that can do good work, but most have overheads that require a certain amount of positive cash flow to keep the doors open. I was involved in a '70 Superbird restoration. The car was originally at a noted T-bird restoration shop, for general body work so the car could be sold, when it was found. When we received the car, it was a painted bare shell and we put it back together, as we had time. I was a sometimes helper and we "got paid" with "being involved" and a "few free meals" by the owner and Mopar club member. So it got a good start that we helped finish, over about a year.

In many cases, the difference in a "normal" job and a "better" job can be just one extra prime/guide coat/block operation. A little more finesse on the panel alignment. A little more care in spraying the top coat. And, of course, more costly materials. But this can be a variable situation.

In cases of "down to bare metal", there can be several ways to accomplish that other than with "sand". This adds cost, too! If the "bare metal" isn't properly cleaned and treated prior to the top-coat process, other issues can arise in later years, which is why a paint remover that "stops at the factory primer" might be another choice.

I mention this as the one time, in my younger years, myself and a friend were going to repaint a '52 Plymouth sedan. We got the "desired" sand blaster and did that in his back yard. Everybody said "as long as you get primer on it", it'll not need any metal prep. The primer might have been mixed a little thick, but it came out the gun ok. Two weeks later, little brown spots started popping through the primer. That, plus "hell dents" (from damp sand in the hopper) kind of put an end to that project. A learning experience. That those things are probably best left to people who do it all of the time. Key thing, as I later found out, primer is porous. It's the paint top-coat that seals everything off.

The Superbird went to Chicago a year of so later. The purchaser was a body shop owner who'd blocked-off one stall in his shop for his '69 GTX to be done by one of his employees. With a selling price (back then) of close to $80K, the buyer said that was cheaper than what he paid his guy PLUS the lost production of that stall. So, everybody was happy. The 'Bird was done to OEM standards and won a 1st Place trophy at Mopar Nats that year, in the car show.

We all live in different areas and have access to different shops to do things for us. There can be some guidelines in choosing these shops, but that might not work in all cases, everywhere. Casually networking at car shows and such can be a good resource. BUT, as mentioned, you need to look at what was done and HOW it was done to fine tune your final decisions, no matter what anybody might say. AND, you need to be comfortable giving those people your work. That YOU are comfortable with what it'll cost, too.

I've heard too many stories of somebody wanting to get a car "restored", taking it to a shop, the car gets torn apart and parts allegedly ordered, then the shop closes and the owner has to come get their car. Shop owner long gone! Even by doing everything "right", it can still be a "crap shoot".

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[saforwardlook]

Panels weren't always perfect on our cars off the line either. Gaps were nowhere near precise and I'm sure panels did have some waves already after being hung on the car. Now look at this picture and tell me what might those two hammers be used for other than tapping (hopefully) panels for better alignment after being bolted onto the unibody. You look at the back end of my 68 Mustang and the alignment of the trunk lid to quarters, especially quarter extensions to quarters, and you go sheeeeet not even close! Yet that is factory and I know of those who would mig fill and then drill new holes to mount the extensions perfectly.

View attachment 208431

I guess when spending something in the area of $12 - $15K for body and paint work on a restoration project, I am shooting for representing the best that the company could do, not its average or worst.

I visited many assembly plants back in the day when working for the corporation, and I was always really impressed with how well the cars did come out given the production variations, tolerances and "stack ups" that could occur. Also, the UAW at the time was too big for its britches (and I also believe the lack of reasonable unions in this country at this time is one big factor as to why wages still stay low despite "healthy" statistics on jobs lately - but there needs to be a healthy balance between them and the corporations too), so the assembly line folks were not always doing their best either and some would be clearly drunk on the assembly line or maybe on something else or whatever. And the guys using the hammers on the lines knew exactly what to do when making adjustments, after considerable practice. It was a revelation to watch them.