The Difference Between a Good Paint Job and a FAB! Paint Job

[300rag]

... And the guys using the hammers on the lines knew exactly what to do when making adjustments, after considerable practice. It was a revelation to watch them.

Somewhere in the mid to late 70's I took the Ford tour at the Mustang II plant, and watched the adjustments to the hatch taking place prior to paint. Smack, test, smack again. They weren't exactly gentle to get the adjustments done.

 

[Carmine]

My apologies if I came across "pompous". That was not my intent. I have just had it with body shops that claim to do good body work and have production systems like you describe to accomplish the work. The panels are usually not straight or wave free, the door/panel alignments are not good, and the steps in the process are often wrong in my opinion to save labor hours, wherein the insides of the front of the doors are not painted well, the assembly order compromises the completeness of coverage of some inner areas that the factory managed to get, and on and on. And then bumps in the paint start to form years later where solvents have reacted within the bondo/primer/paint over time because of quick processes that don't allow enough drying time (hard to do when you have a shop of 20 people that can't let cars sit around for 3 months to dry properly and still make money).

I have seen a lot of car guys at shows who have "repainted" (including body work) cars that they delight in and win first place awards at the shows. But when I look at some of these cars, I would not be satisfied with them - waves are clearly present and they just don't realize it and think it is great because it is shiny and pretty. I just keep my mouth shut and put these in my memory banks. Sorry, thats not me, and sorry also if that seems pompous. I just want my cars to look real showroom and yet not over restored. You have seen them in photos at least.

The shop you reference seems to be one like we do have here in Southern California, called Motech. They do really good work as far as I have seen though, but their prices are above $100/hour. And they do specialize in Mopar, so they have some familiarity with how they ought to look already. They don't have a big crew, but one that is pretty competent it seems. I doubt the shop with 20 guys doing all makes of restorations doing the work will know Mopars very well. But Motech does, but would end up costing me way more than my guy, so I prefer going to a single good guy who I can trust to do every step the way I want it and not wonder what is going on when I am not there. I would likely consider Motech if I didn't have the guy that I am using. Guys like I employ are not plentiful, but they are out there if you search and are patient (they have long waiting lines). But if you want a team of probably competent guys working on your car, all I can say is good luck for a guy like me. I have seen their results many times, and I don't like them. But they may be fine for others. I guess we just have to disagree on this one, or I am way more fussy or whatever. When I was younger, I painted a couple of my cars myself, and did some of the body work too, but not all of it in most cases where rust repair was required. My 300C and 300H are a couple of them (they required no rust repair) but I also had a very experienced paint and body guy there when I did both of them to guide me in all the steps. I have seen a lot and have some clue what I am looking at. So I am confident of what I am saying and sorry if it is intrepreted as "pompous". I would just like others to be aware of the pros/cons of each choice so they will get what they want - i.e. trying to be helpful. Not everyone has to have a show car and that is fine. To each his own.

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I understand the anger of having been burnt by a lousy job at a production shop. I've not experienced it personally, but I've seen people soured on the car hobby by shoddy, crooked shops.

But that's not every single shop. Some do excellent work, and I'm sure the customers pay for it. If you've got a "guy" who does great work, viva la Mopar. But my only point is there are multiple ways to skin a cat.

Another reason to divide "body" from paint is because often the one thing people can't do is actually spray the paint. When I first lived in AZ, I stayed in a pretty fancy apartment where you could rent a 10x25 garage. No way could you paint in that space, but you could do everything BUT paint. In that space I did a '73 Charger SE 400-4, a '65 Newport and a '79 T&C wagon. Each car was a solid, single stage color (Rallye Red, French Ivory and Black) that I had painted by a Maaco shop. They literally had to do nothing more than mask the glass, I removed anything "legally" required for the second time in the parking lot. All of those cars (and a few more I did once I bought a house) came out muy excellenté. Someday I'll have to scan the pics.

 

[forzav12]

Pricing a paint job is difficult as there are so many levels of what constitutes a "good" job. Years ago I prepped and partially disassembled a 66 Shelby Mustang. I took it to a local Maaco shop and tipped their "best" painter to spray it white. I believe it cost about 500. I painted on the stripes and sold the car for a tidy sum. I also had a 77 Corvette painted at a local production shop for 1800. I stripped the trim, grills,etc and the car didn't need any bodywork to speak of. It was a very presentable driver. I had another shop paint my 67 Porsche. They had it six years! It cost about 15K and it looked great. At the ultimate high end-I had a 330GTC that was painted before I owned it by one of the country's most famous painters(Junior Conway of House of Color fame). He typically takes a year or two to do a job and the car is completely disassembled, gaps are perfect,etc. Last I checked, prices were about 125K. I had some very minor checking on my upper quarter panel where another premier socal shop had touched up Junior's work after the owner before me had slightly damaged it. The color match was perfect, but there was that minor checking after a few years. I thought I'd get a price from Junior to touch up a car that he had painted. He said he was happy to do it, remembered my car and said I'd get special pricing. It was 12K to spot finish that upper panel! I didn't do it as you couldn't really notice the flaws unless you were right on top of it. Ironically, the cars that I've owned with the best paint jobs are the ones that I've driven the least.

 

[MJF]

Somewhere in the mid to late 70's I took the Ford tour at the Mustang II plant, and watched the adjustments to the hatch taking place prior to paint. Smack, test, smack again. They weren't exactly gentle to get the adjustments done.

Like here?

 

[65sporty]

Rebuilding, detailing, and putting it back together is good therapy and a way to decompress after work.

It's also great entertainment for those of us following along in your build thread

 

[65sporty]

But my only point is there are multiple ways to skin a cat.

Another reason to divide "body" from paint is because often the one thing people can't do is actually spray the paint. When I first lived in AZ, I stayed in a pretty fancy apartment where you could rent a 10x25 garage. No way could you paint in that space, but you could do everything BUT paint. In that space I did a '73 Charger SE 400-4, a '65 Newport and a '79 T&C wagon. Each car was a solid, single stage color (Rallye Red, French Ivory and Black) that I had painted by a Maaco shop. They literally had to do nothing more than mask the glass

This is a great way to do it when you can do all the body and prep work, those guy's at Maaco and Earl Schieb spray so much paint that a budget job can look really, really good.

 

[65 500]

those guy's at Maaco and Earl Schieb spray so much paint that a budget job can look really, really good.

The problem is their paint is really really bad.

 

[Carmine]

The problem is their paint is really really bad.

I haven't used that method in some time, perhaps 15+ years. But in that era they used Sherwin Williams automotive paint, which I've used myself without issue. One of the ways they offer paint services as cheap as they do is because of the volume they buy from one supplier.

 

[cantflip]

Do you really type all that out or copy and paste?

Seems I've heard similar comments before...

 

[cantflip]

That's nice Steve. But the rest of the world won't be going to see your friend who appreciates C-bodies. And it's wrong to pompously denigrate anything else as an Earl Schieb-style operation that's only fit to crap out insurance work on F-150's. I'm going to guess that most of the restored cars at concours events came from shops where the painter doesn't hammer out dents or sand filler. I'm not saying "your friend" system isn't good, I'm saying it's not typical.

I have zero connection to the resto shop I randomly chose from an ad posted below, but my guess is that with 20+ employees, there is a division of labor in the shop.

I believe we have a person who paints houses on the board. I'm sure there is a price to just paint a house, and another to paint and repair rotted fascia boards... He might not even do that work, farming it out to someone else because it's not the optimal use of his time.

If someone doesn't do their own work, it's probably best to simply budget X dollars for "cosmetics" and leave it at that.

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I kinda like that they have a few ladies on the crew, though judging by the shoes, at least one is office staff.

My apologies if I came across "pompous". That was not my intent. I have just had it with body shops that claim to do good body work and have production systems like you describe to accomplish the work. The panels are usually not straight or wave free, the door/panel alignments are not good, and the steps in the process are often wrong in my opinion to save labor hours, wherein the insides of the front of the doors are not painted well, the assembly order compromises the completeness of coverage of some inner areas that the factory managed to get, and on and on. And then bumps in the paint start to form years later where solvents have reacted within the bondo/primer/paint over time because of quick processes that don't allow enough drying time (hard to do when you have a shop of 20 people that can't let cars sit around for 3 months to dry properly and still make money).

I have seen a lot of car guys at shows who have "repainted" (including body work) cars that they delight in and win first place awards at the shows. But when I look at some of these cars, I would not be satisfied with them - waves are clearly present and they just don't realize it and think it is great because it is shiny and pretty. I just keep my mouth shut and put these in my memory banks. Sorry, thats not me, and sorry also if that seems pompous. I just want my cars to look real showroom and yet not over restored. You have seen them in photos at least.

The shop you reference seems to be one like we do have here in Southern California, called Motech. They do really good work as far as I have seen though, but their prices are above $100/hour. And they do specialize in Mopar, so they have some familiarity with how they ought to look already. They don't have a big crew, but one that is pretty competent it seems. I doubt the shop with 20 guys doing all makes of restorations doing the work will know Mopars very well. But Motech does, but would end up costing me way more than my guy, so I prefer going to a single good guy who I can trust to do every step the way I want it and not wonder what is going on when I am not there. I would likely consider Motech if I didn't have the guy that I am using. Guys like I employ are not plentiful, but they are out there if you search and are patient (they have long waiting lines). But if you want a team of probably competent guys working on your car, all I can say is good luck for a guy like me. I have seen their results many times, and I don't like them. But they may be fine for others. I guess we just have to disagree on this one, or I am way more fussy or whatever. When I was younger, I painted a couple of my cars myself, and did some of the body work too, but not all of it in most cases where rust repair was required. My 300C and 300H are a couple of them (they required no rust repair) but I also had a very experienced paint and body guy there when I did both of them to guide me in all the steps. I have seen a lot and have some clue what I am looking at. So I am confident of what I am saying and sorry if it is intrepreted as "pompous". I would just like others to be aware of the pros/cons of each choice so they will get what they want - i.e. trying to be helpful. Not everyone has to have a show car and that is fine. To each his own.

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Not "pompous" in my opinion, but certainly picky and know what you want...

I see the logic you use as sound, but I don't think you are operating from the same small budget many of us are. That is why I am as enthusiastic as I am when I see a member doing this stuff in less ideal conditions and am happy to see their less than perfect results.

I have no doubt that I would be impressed looking down the bodies of your fleet, and I know just enough to see the quality of the work... including the restored finishes vs over-restored. I don't have the "make everything like it was when new" bug, nor do I like to see bulkheads smoothed prior to paint work...

I'd love to hear from other folks like @azblackhemi , but I suspect I already know most of what they'd say. I am very impressed with many DIY jobs too... I don't know if I've got the patience to do all that work myself though. It has been decades since I did any real sanding and I still don't miss it. I don't find refinishing wood to be much fun either... similar levels of patience and attention to detail are required to make the final finish outstanding IMO.

 

[polara71]

Seems I've heard similar comments before...

I was thinking of you when I wrote it

 

[imperialman]

I have been following this thread and find all the information given helpful.

I have nothing to add except the best OEM paint job I have seen was believe it or not on a 1961 Mercury Comet.
The car was jet black , low miles and owned by my buddy in the mid 1970's .

 

[rapidtrans]

Did a couple cars back in the early 80s. Spent a lot of time on the prep work myself. Prime and block sanding. Pulled bumpers and all trim that I could. Maaco made me sign a waiver since I did the prep work. Told them I want the car to look new and not a show car finish. Their mask job was great and paint came out looking as good or better than a new car. Stood up to Michigan weather for years. I bought their top level paint job which supposedly was a better paint in correct factory colors.

 

[cantflip]

I was thinking of you when I wrote it

Somehow I knew that... = Good Morning, in NJ...