The kah-kah'z gettin' too deep around here

Just like appliances now.
There was a time all your kitchen appliances lasted a generation and you bought new ones because Avocado Green went out of style.
Now, these new appliances that have to meet the Federally mandated EnergyStar specifications last eight - nine years before replacing them is cheaper. WhereTF is the savings? The name EnergyStar was dreamed up to get us all to think this scam was a good thing.

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patrick66 said:
The problem with electric vehicles is the very same problem that was experienced with the first electric cars and trucks over 100 years ago - the battery technology simply is NOT there for a range like a gas or Diesel-powered vehicle has. A quick "fill-up" with a battery car was impossible in 1914, and it's impossible in 2014. Getting rid of lead-acid batteries was pretty easy, as they could/can be recycled. Try recycling modern electronic battery packs! Not gonna happen. Disposal and replacement are both expensive.

Electric cars are nothing more than playthings for people that can afford both the premium price of the electric car AND the price of electricity to recharge them.

I'd like to build an electric drag car or pickup. That's about all they are good for. Until someone builds a real "Mr. Fusion" mini-reactor ala "Back to the Future", electric cars will remain the impractical toys that they are now.
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Never say never.
 
I am neither a Chemist nor a Physicist. But I am of the following opinion: A battery is not an energy source, it is a mere storage element. And while only one cup of gasoline contains enough energy to move a car with five passengers for around two miles, a battery holding the same amount of electrical energy is complicated, expensive, heavy, time-consuming to recharge, and aging (i. e. losing capacity) rather quickly. Now we all don't know what researchers might have in store for us in that field in the future. However, I doubt that a container for electrons will ever be as effective and easy to operate as gasoline in a tank. In my opinion, it will always be a rather heavy thing and take too much time to stuff all those electrons in there.

So I wonder why - instead of wasting electrical energy by schlepping dead weight (in form of a battery) around in any such vehicle - the same loss is not accepted by using electrical energy to form a liquid fuel that is leightweight and can be used in existing or easily modified cars. It is long known how to make gasoline from garbage, it's just that you have to put way more energy into it than the final fuel will contain. However, producing hydrogen with electrical energy is not as bad and it could be burned in cars pretty easily.

Following that route would probably make more sense than trying to carry electricity around. As was written above, 100 years of electrical cars yielded astonishingly small progress in that respect. I doubt that there is a magic battery waiting around the corner. I doubt batterys will ever make sense other than what they were used for back then already.

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Honda sold quite a few Insight hybrid-electric cars from 2000 - 2004. See any of those around today??? I know of ONE locally. I've seen ONE Chevy Volt. One.

When Mister Fusion shows up for real, I'm on board. Battery-power is for toys, and cars that need to go just a few miles. Impractical, otherwise.

Here is "state of the art" currently from Honda. It makes my point...http://world.honda.com/Electric-Vehicle/
 
I still say a micro-turbine car would be the way to go. Use it as the generator/charging device. Turbine car was a great idea, but the gear reduction needed plus the varying speed is not what turbines like. I've read they're much more like a Ronco rotisserie, set it and forget it.
 
The auto industry is pursuing battery electric vehicles and fuel cell vehicles as the longer term solutions to our mobility needs. Fuel cell vehicles are pretty much ready to go now, with reasonable cost and driving range and refueling time comparable to gasoline vehicles. The hydrogen infrastructure for them though is lagging, but efforts are taking place to improve that. Toyota, GM, Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai and others are getting ready for retail sales at least in California next year where the infrastructure is being built to support them. The long term goal is to have H2 made from renewables, such as solar, windmills, etc. If you do not innovate, nothing will change. Some believe global warming will overtake us in time, and want to prevent that. I will not get into that argument on this open minded site, but the scientists overwhelmingly believe it is inevitable on our current path. But since the effects do not occur in our generation very much, it seems many would just like to forget about it while others would like to find a way to prevent it, and at the same time stop funding those who want to behead us.
 
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Natural gas trucks are popping up all over and the filling stations are starting to show up in truck concentrated areas. I think it has more to do with the poor fuel mileage and emission maintenance that diesel trucks are getting kicked in the nuts with, no filters, burners, or cow pee to deal with.
 
70bigblockdodge said:
Natural gas trucks are popping up all over and the filling stations are starting to show up in truck concentrated areas. I think it has more to do with the poor fuel mileage and emission maintenance that diesel trucks are getting kicked in the nuts with, no filters, burners, or cow pee to deal with.
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Good points. There is no doubt that the new diesels are a Rube Goldberg nightmare of controls, from particulate filters that must be regenerated through controlled burns of the accumulated particulate soot, but timed just right so that the burn does not start too early and not finish the job (ultimately plugging the filter) or start too late and burn up the filter - all a fine nightmare of a problem for the emission engineers who have to make these decisions with software that must account for all kinds of operating conditions and temperatures, and then deal with the additional nitrogen oxides adsorber that needs DEF fluid (cow pee) to reduce nitrogen oxides. Then some even have another catalyst to deal with the ammonia that forms from the cow pee facilited reduction process in the adsorber, and some even use light off catalysts at the front of the system to keep temperatures high in the system to ensure proper emission system operation. And then some of these diesel systems also rely on cooled exhaust gas recirculation that has to go through a cooler that is not that hard to plug after about a 100K mileage accumulation. Which signals an on-board diagnostics light to have the system maintenance along with diagnostics for all the other chemical factory equipment under the hood of new diesels.

So, natural gas does look more attractive, especially since fracking in the U.S. needed to generate a lot of the fuel is really soaring here in the U.S. The big elephant in the room for fracking is the devasting environmental effects of the communities where this is happening, and scientists are also linking it to causing unstable earth movements such as earthquakes. Who knows?

These reasons and many more are why the brighter minds in the auto industry are heading toward a long term path of electric vehicles for normal urban use and renewable hydrogen fuel cells for longer range driving. Neither require any emission controls and do not contribute to global warming if renewables are used to ultimately fuel them. Those who innovate and make these technologies happen sooner rather than later will thrive, while the others will struggle to survive. Unfortunately, in the U.S., it is increasingly harder to go to college while in other countries those who want to attend college are encouraged and supported to do so. That is why there are so many more engineers being produced by other countries than here in the U.S. and we will continue to struggle with our economy.
 
I always see at least one a day around here. Either in town or on the 680 Freeway heading south to San Jose and Silicon Valley. Took me awhile to really note what I was looking at outside of a sexy looking sports car.
 
67Monaco said:
We do all know the majority of our oil comes from Canadia right? I'd be ok with paying higher prices at the pump and elsewhere if that meant we cut off imports from the Persian gulf. 12.9% to be exact and 8.1% from the Saudies.
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very few americans actually know that. thanks for educating a lot of them.
 
saforwardlook said:
Good points. There is no doubt that the new diesels are a Rube Goldberg nightmare of controls, from particulate filters that must be regenerated through controlled burns of the accumulated particulate soot, but timed just right so that the burn does not start too early and not finish the job (ultimately plugging the filter) or start too late and burn up the filter - all a fine nightmare of a problem for the emission engineers who have to make these decisions with software that must account for all kinds of operating conditions and temperatures, and then deal with the additional nitrogen oxides adsorber that needs DEF fluid (cow pee) to reduce nitrogen oxides. Then some even have another catalyst to deal with the ammonia that forms from the cow pee facilited reduction process in the adsorber, and some even use light off catalysts at the front of the system to keep temperatures high in the system to ensure proper emission system operation. And then some of these diesel systems also rely on cooled exhaust gas recirculation that has to go through a cooler that is not that hard to plug after about a 100K mileage accumulation. Which signals an on-board diagnostics light to have the system maintenance along with diagnostics for all the other chemical factory equipment under the hood of new diesels.

So, natural gas does look more attractive, especially since fracking in the U.S. needed to generate a lot of the fuel is really soaring here in the U.S. The big elephant in the room for fracking is the devasting environmental effects of the communities where this is happening, and scientists are also linking it to causing unstable earth movements such as earthquakes. Who knows?

These reasons and many more are why the brighter minds in the auto industry are heading toward a long term path of electric vehicles for normal urban use and renewable hydrogen fuel cells for longer range driving. Neither require any emission controls and do not contribute to global warming if renewables are used to ultimately fuel them. Those who innovate and make these technologies happen sooner rather than later will thrive, while the others will struggle to survive. Unfortunately, in the U.S., it is increasingly harder to go to college while in other countries those who want to attend college are encouraged and supported to do so. That is why there are so many more engineers being produced by other countries than here in the U.S. and we will continue to struggle with our economy.
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and i thought i was the only one who was aware of rube goldberg.lol
 
If you guys haven't seen "Who Killed the Electric Car?", I'd recommend it. While I don't agree with their anti-petroleum fueled engine stance, I do find it very interesting to see just how far General Motors went to make sure the EV1 was pulled out of the hands of consumers and never brought to market. Now they're just doing the same thing to someone ELSE's electric car.
 
jg09 said:
If you guys haven't seen "Who Killed the Electric Car?", I'd recommend it. While I don't agree with their anti-petroleum fueled engine stance, I do find it very interesting to see just how far General Motors went to make sure the EV1 was pulled out of the hands of consumers and never brought to market. Now they're just doing the same thing to someone ELSE's electric car.
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I remember well when they were running around and I have seen that slanted and biased documentary twice. GM did not kill it. The public did.

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BUT, many EV1 owners wanted to have the opportunity to buy their cars from GM when that program ended. GM refused, and took the cars back for destruction. GM owned each and every car, so it was their choice to take them all back; and within their rights to do so. So, insofar as the EV1 goes, GM killed them. They did not want to saddled with the product liability, and the recalls that would've inevitably occurred with the EV1.

Electric cars in general are never going to gain acceptance among cars buyers worldwide, unless they have the same abilites as gas/Diesel/CNG/propane vehicles have. When battery technology comes about that safely allows for a ten-minute FULL recharge (and bills the car owner accordingly!), battery-powered cars will never hit the roads in any volume that matters. Plus, they are FAR more expensive to build and maintain in cost-per-mile than gasoline cars are.
 
When battery technology comes about that safely allows for a ten-minute FULL recharge (and bills the car owner accordingly!), battery-powered cars will never hit the roads in any volume that matters. Plus, they are FAR more expensive to build and maintain in cost-per-mile than gasoline cars are.[/QUOTE]

Quick charging is pretty safe now, but can affect battery life if done frequently. Unless you are talking battery depreciation, how are EVs more expensive to maintain? No oil or coolant changes or 9+ speed transmissions to deal with, etc. Less brake wear with regenerative braking.

I drove the EV1 for a short while and found it was really pretty much like a kit car - not really refined enough for a regular production vehicle. It was really quick, but not all that technologically advanced. I believe battery technology will continue to evolve and become less expensive based on current trends/advances. We will have to see how well fuel cells do, but given today's gasoline costs, the road ahead for these advanced technologies will continue to be more challenging. With all the unrest in the middle east, how is it that today's worldwide supplies and resultant gasoline prices do not reflect that turmoil like prices did every time a hiccup occurred over there in the past?
 
saforwardlook said:
With all the unrest in the middle east, how is it that today's worldwide supplies and resultant gasoline prices do not reflect that turmoil like prices did every time a hiccup occurred over there in the past?
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Halliburton isn't in the white house anymore? People figured out they're being suckered by the media hype and wait for the prices to settle before buying now? The price is artificially inflated to the point where it negatively affects purchases of other goods and services and there's no room to continue to go up?
 
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