Voyager 1 and 2 still alive!!!! 38,000 mph!
- Thread starter Turboomni
- Start date
Private company landing on the moon. Live at 5;30 EST today. South Pole .. tough one. Hope they "stick" the landing 
Aside. Link shows some "selfies" the craft took past few days on the road there. I saw something on mainstream news outlet indicating 10% of adults believe the Earth is flat.
Going out on a limb here ... I really don't think it is flat...just sayin"
Artist conception after landing
sources: Private Odysseus moon lander beams home 1st photos from space, Odysseus spacecraft attempts historic moon landing today: Here's how to watch, Here's what's landing on the moon today aboard Intuitive Machines' Odysseus lander
Apparently it landed,upright, tripped on a rock and fell over, but as of NOON a day TWO DAYS later, still NO pics ON the moon. Communication issues they say.
Quite an achievement, at a fraction of the cost (a persuasive economic argument AGAINST manned space flight -- a lot the proportion of total mission costs are incurred cuz humans AINT made for space, let alone the safety factor needed for the mission that you DONT have with unmanned stuff).
We'll see, still, it the juice was worth the squeeze on this one. I think it will be.
Aside. Link shows some "selfies" the craft took past few days on the road there. I saw something on mainstream news outlet indicating 10% of adults believe the Earth is flat.
Going out on a limb here ... I really don't think it is flat...just sayin"
Artist conception after landing
sources: Private Odysseus moon lander beams home 1st photos from space, Odysseus spacecraft attempts historic moon landing today: Here's how to watch, Here's what's landing on the moon today aboard Intuitive Machines' Odysseus lander
Apparently it landed,
Quite an achievement, at a fraction of the cost (a persuasive economic argument AGAINST manned space flight -- a lot the proportion of total mission costs are incurred cuz humans AINT made for space, let alone the safety factor needed for the mission that you DONT have with unmanned stuff).
We'll see, still, it the juice was worth the squeeze on this one. I think it will be.
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odie aint gonna make it. laying on its side is a problem it cant work around.Private company landing on the moon. Live at 5;30 EST today. South Pole .. tough one. Hope they "stick" the landing
Aside. Link shows some "selfies" the craft took past few days on the road there. I saw something on mainstream news outlet indicating 10% of adults believe the Earth is flat.
Going out on a limb here ... I really don't think it is flat...just sayin"
View attachment 645507View attachment 645509View attachment 645508View attachment 645510
Artist conception after landing
View attachment 645511
sources: Private Odysseus moon lander beams home 1st photos from space, Odysseus spacecraft attempts historic moon landing today: Here's how to watch, Here's what's landing on the moon today aboard Intuitive Machines' Odysseus lander
Apparently it landed,upright, tripped on a rock and fell over, but as ofNOON a dayTWO DAYS later, still NO pics ON the moon. Communication issues they say.
Quite an achievement, at a fraction of the cost (a persuasive economic argument AGAINST manned space flight -- a lot the proportion of total mission costs are incurred cuz humans AINT made for space, let alone the safety factor needed for the mission that you DONT have with unmanned stuff).
We'll see, still, it the juice was worth the squeeze on this one. I think it will be.
they reported they'd lose contact with it, and it would lose power (its solar panels arent getting enough light) tomorrow sometime.
bummer.
Amazing [no pun intended} We land on the moon multiple times with humans on board with great success 50 years ago with on board computers that make a Commodore 64 look like a Cray. Not just USA but Japan too. Something is missing ,,maybe human intellect real time??
yeah man. i'm with ya. and Mars is an inherently (distance, weather, etc., ) even harder place to land on.
Neil Armstrong doesnt grab the stick and 'fly" the Eagle" the last few seconds, there may not have been "one small step" that day 54 years ago ... or worse had we lost those guys.
these folks trying to do this stuff today? brilliant, motivated, lotta technology light years beyond half-century ago... and we trip over a moon rock. NO SLAM on these folks..they really did a great thing, but it was HARD to do.
space aint routine..yet. may never be?! and keep sending folks up there (or anywhere hard to reach, celestial or terrestrial), we aint gonna get them all back. they (the travelers) understand and accept that risk. BUT ...
as is a lifelong space nerd (and a big time Trekkie) and supporter of MANNED exploration, i'd vote for sending a few more smart machines 'out there" for time being.
save some money and probably some lives, and STILL learn cool stuff ( e.g., Webb, Hubble, etc) while we are at it.
Neil Armstrong doesnt grab the stick and 'fly" the Eagle" the last few seconds, there may not have been "one small step" that day 54 years ago ... or worse had we lost those guys.
these folks trying to do this stuff today? brilliant, motivated, lotta technology light years beyond half-century ago... and we trip over a moon rock. NO SLAM on these folks..they really did a great thing, but it was HARD to do.
space aint routine..yet. may never be?! and keep sending folks up there (or anywhere hard to reach, celestial or terrestrial), we aint gonna get them all back. they (the travelers) understand and accept that risk. BUT ...
as is a lifelong space nerd (and a big time Trekkie) and supporter of MANNED exploration, i'd vote for sending a few more smart machines 'out there" for time being.
save some money and probably some lives, and STILL learn cool stuff ( e.g., Webb, Hubble, etc) while we are at it.
3175375
Senior Member
I spent my career in engineering , technology development and flight testing. I helped successfully put some things that were never developed to fly in the air.
The attention to detail and situational awareness that is required to successfully execute such a project as landing Dr. Who’s time traveling phone booth on the moon is much more than was required for me to get an antenna airborne on the side of a testbed.
What I am trying to say is there’s not a lot of people who can get it right out there.
I have no idea what went wrong, what ‘what if’s’ were flushed out and thought of, but it appears to me that they missed something.
yup,
most every "fail", (when one does their "root cause" analysis, or whatever an organization calls their particular process), can be (if the organization is honest, objective with their assessment) be sorted out.
why did their LIDAR fail? thing was dropping at six mph, and moving sideways at 2 mph -- i don't think the two mph helped matters/or was supposed to happen? What if it did fall over? End of mission?
I aint an engineer but have had gigs (in car biz) leading multi-disciplinary teams making safe, engineered products at a profit.
Our "DFMEA" and "PFMEA" was top notch, as well a problem solving/quality processes were too ... we STILL missed stuff, AND/OR, underestimated the probability/severity/absolute number ways for any particular failure mode to manifest itself.
the constant balancing/tradeoffs of risk, cost, quality, and marketability of the things we made - giving me a headache just thinking about it now.
Anyway, unfortunately, the space industry went through this '"faster, better, cheaper"" phase (a topic for another thread
) that some "critics" believe lead to some "failures" that killed some folks/crashed some machines. That way of working have anything to do with this?...again, dunno. They just weren't funded well enough? dunno. "Missed something?" yeah, likely.
ASIDE - heck, we put Vikings on Mars in the '70's and 30 years later we had a spectacular stream of failures (mixed in wit obvious sucesses) at that same task. Da heck? We forgot stuff, tried too many new things, scrimped on the budget, what?
I also don't know what this Houston bunch with Odie did/didn't do here. However, watching it in "real time" (nearly-- afterward online same day), I was troubled by the problems leading up to and after.
The LIDAR fail, significant sideways momentum at landing, why would a foreseeable "tip over" mean communication/solar fails, etc., -- these things seemed like obvious failure modes that were UN-, or IN-sufficiently, mitigated in the planning/execution of this mission.
Anyway, whatever the legitimate, "fail(s) ultimately were, IMHO, I don't expect it to diminish their achievement. I don't remotely think they are a buncha screwups. Quite the opposite, again, smart, motivated, creative folks I perceive.
The "Odie" space kids did 1,000's of things right, and maybe a fraction of that wrong, in bold attempt of a difficult thing. And they didn't kill anybody.
hell, I applaud them. hope they get a chance to learn here and get better at it.
3175375
Senior Member
We went through a lot of failure analysis in my career. I remember speaking with a software engineer about a condition where if a mode indicator wire broke and floated high (software then reading a ‘1’, asking what his code would do. He looked at me as if I was from Mars, and said ‘that’s not supposed to happen’. I responded with - what have you written to do if this did occur. Blank stare, followed by I don’t know.yup,
most every "fail", (when one does their "root cause" analysis, or whatever an organization calls their particular process), can be (if the organization is honest, objective with their assessment) be sorted out.
why did their LIDAR fail? thing was dropping at six mph, and moving sideways at 2 mph -- i don't think the two mph helped matters/or was supposed to happen? What if it did fall over? End of mission?
I aint an engineer but have had gigs (in car biz) leading multi-disciplinary teams making safe, engineered products at a profit.
Our "DFMEA" and "PFMEA" was top notch, as well a problem solving/quality processes were too ... we STILL missed stuff, AND/OR, underestimated the probability/severity/absolute number ways for any particular failure mode to manifest itself.
the constant balancing/tradeoffs of risk, cost, quality, and marketability of the things we made - giving me a headache just thinking about it now.
Anyway, unfortunately, the space industry went through this '"faster, better, cheaper"" phase (a topic for another thread
That way of working have anything to do with this?...again, dunno. They just weren't funded well enough? dunno. "Missed something?" yeah, likely.
ASIDE - heck, we put Vikings on Mars in the '70's and 30 years later we had a spectacular stream of failures (mixed in wit obvious sucesses) at that same task. Da heck? We forgot stuff, tried too many new things, scrimped on the budget, what?
I also don't know what this Houston bunch with Odie did/didn't do here. However, watching it in "real time" (nearly-- afterward online same day), I was troubled by the problems leading up to and after.
The LIDAR fail, significant sideways momentum at landing, why would a foreseeable "tip over" mean communication/solar fails, etc., -- these things seemed like obvious failure modes that were UN-, or IN-sufficiently, mitigated in the planning/execution of this mission.
Anyway, whatever the legitimate, "fail(s) ultimately were, IMHO, I don't expect it to diminish their achievement. I don't remotely think they are a buncha screwups. Quite the opposite, again, smart, motivated, creative folks I perceive.
The "Odie" space kids did 1,000's of things right, and maybe a fraction of that wrong, in bold attempt of a difficult thing. And they didn't kill anybody.
hell, I applaud them. hope they get a chance to learn here and get better at it.
This is the paradigm that exists today.
We ended up adding error checks to make the processor do something that was known and safe.
I don’t think that the illegal state ever occurred, but we knew what it would do.
man, i got stories. on stuff that made national headlines, and stuff that didn't because we "asked one more question". Sometimes, we were more lucky than good. Overall, the car industry has done pretty good with their stuff over the past 120 years.
Aviation & aerospace? good products yes, but ... one of their products messes up, a lotta folks can get impacted. I have been watching this show for at least 10 years. Fascinating and a little unsettling.
Why do bad things happen. I can't tell ya how many times an aircraft manufacturer said "chances of XYZ happening is one in a billion".
Its turned out to be rare, but the 2-3 times XYZ DID happen in the past 70 years (e.g., all aircraft hydraulics failed, engine/wing falls off, door blows off at altitude, etc.,)., and 1,000 people in total got killed.
Yeah, we learned from the fails -- but we had to kill people to learn it.
I fly, drive, ride a bike .. whatever .. with no fear. but, i do try to stick with "brand names". Those people/organizations are "more likely" to get it right in my experience.
AINT dissin' any of these folks. but certain products, in certain industries, EVEN those not ostensibly as HIGH risk as aerospace or aviation clearly are, demand we trust people to think a thing through. Not just engineers, but maintenance staffs, assembly line workers, controllers, pilots, TSA agents, etc., too.
Alas, sometimes, they don't.
Aviation & aerospace? good products yes, but ... one of their products messes up, a lotta folks can get impacted. I have been watching this show for at least 10 years. Fascinating and a little unsettling.
Why do bad things happen. I can't tell ya how many times an aircraft manufacturer said "chances of XYZ happening is one in a billion".
Its turned out to be rare, but the 2-3 times XYZ DID happen in the past 70 years (e.g., all aircraft hydraulics failed, engine/wing falls off, door blows off at altitude, etc.,)., and 1,000 people in total got killed.
Yeah, we learned from the fails -- but we had to kill people to learn it.
I fly, drive, ride a bike .. whatever .. with no fear. but, i do try to stick with "brand names". Those people/organizations are "more likely" to get it right in my experience.
AINT dissin' any of these folks. but certain products, in certain industries, EVEN those not ostensibly as HIGH risk as aerospace or aviation clearly are, demand we trust people to think a thing through. Not just engineers, but maintenance staffs, assembly line workers, controllers, pilots, TSA agents, etc., too.
Alas, sometimes, they don't.
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Just released photos. first pic is close to landing, engine kicking up dust. Second pic after landing .. doesn't look like it fell over but it is obviously titled.yup,
most every "fail", (when one does their "root cause" analysis, or whatever an organization calls their particular process), can be (if the organization is honest, objective with their assessment) be sorted out.
why did their LIDAR fail? thing was dropping at six mph, and moving sideways at 2 mph -- i don't think the two mph helped matters/or was supposed to happen? What if it did fall over? End of mission?
I aint an engineer but have had gigs (in car biz) leading multi-disciplinary teams making safe, engineered products at a profit.
Our "DFMEA" and "PFMEA" was top notch, as well a problem solving/quality processes were too ... we STILL missed stuff, AND/OR, underestimated the probability/severity/absolute number ways for any particular failure mode to manifest itself.
the constant balancing/tradeoffs of risk, cost, quality, and marketability of the things we made - giving me a headache just thinking about it now.
Anyway, unfortunately, the space industry went through this '"faster, better, cheaper"" phase (a topic for another thread
That way of working have anything to do with this?...again, dunno. They just weren't funded well enough? dunno. "Missed something?" yeah, likely.
ASIDE - heck, we put Vikings on Mars in the '70's and 30 years later we had a spectacular stream of failures (mixed in wit obvious sucesses) at that same task. Da heck? We forgot stuff, tried too many new things, scrimped on the budget, what?
I also don't know what this Houston bunch with Odie did/didn't do here. However, watching it in "real time" (nearly-- afterward online same day), I was troubled by the problems leading up to and after.
The LIDAR fail, significant sideways momentum at landing, why would a foreseeable "tip over" mean communication/solar fails, etc., -- these things seemed like obvious failure modes that were UN-, or IN-sufficiently, mitigated in the planning/execution of this mission.
Anyway, whatever the legitimate, "fail(s) ultimately were, IMHO, I don't expect it to diminish their achievement. I don't remotely think they are a buncha screwups. Quite the opposite, again, smart, motivated, creative folks I perceive.
The "Odie" space kids did 1,000's of things right, and maybe a fraction of that wrong, in bold attempt of a difficult thing. And they didn't kill anybody.
hell, I applaud them. hope they get a chance to learn here and get better at it.
source: See images of the tilted Odysseus lander on the moon | Digital Trends
NERD ALERT:
Confirmation of something Hubble found 8 years ago, and Jimbo giving deeper insights into the oldest (relative to today, so ~13.4 billion years ago), so therefore the earliest galaxy (measured from the estimated "big bang" - ~400M years old).
What Jimbo is seeing is evidence of what has been theorized, and some new stuff that has knocked the spacekids' socks off.
Bigger, earlier galaxies, the first generation of stars (100% made of hydrogen and helium, as heavier elements had NOT been fused yet in supernovae events), and black holes more massive than they even thought possible.
Our Sun is a third generation star, about halfway through its ~10 billion year life. It too is STILL mostly hydrogen and helium but its spectra has carbon, sulfur, magnesium, etc., in it. Its too small to EVER start fusing heavier (e.g, iron, lead, gold, etc.,) elements as it will never go novae.
So Hubble found the oldest galaxy in 2016 and past year Jimbo has been checking it out. One can veg out at the links. To laypeople like me, it just looks like a buncha colored dots. It is .. but they are of great significance in learned hands.
sources: Webb Unlocks Secrets of One of the Most Distant Galaxies Ever Seen - NASA Science, https://hubblesite.org/contents/news-releases/2016/news-2016-07.html
Immediately below, Hubble discovery of galaxy GN-z11 in 2016. One needs to look at a magnified pic WITH another magnifying device to see it.
Below, Webb pic of same object.
White box in lower right "blown up" in upper right, to see GN-z11. Looks like Webb sees "less". Quite to the contrary, Webb sees "through" things Hubble cant. Plus Webb can identify what stuff was made of - thatwas there 13 billion years ago.
And the giant black hole that was gorging itself on all the hydrogen/helium that was there. Webb sees NO other elements out there in this galaxy.
At the links, there's Webb's spectra work to determine the composition of this galaxy (again, they are only seeing primordial hydrogen and helium - the first elements they THOUGHT the early universe could make. That appears to have been the case .. ~13 billion years ago.
What does it all mean? Again, EOD, there will still be hungry people in the world, and it won't likely lead us to a cure for cancer. But .. this seems to be what humans do. We gotta figure stuff out. Same as we need air to breathe.
But to me, its like the more we know, the less we know. Then again that's kinda the point. It keeps the questions coming and the search for answers therefore remains alive.
"How" we got here? The science part is coming into clearer focus.
"Why" are we here? Depends on what one believes. Best to stay outta that discussion here.
As to Webb's mission? The ole' boy is hitting home runs on the scientific stuff. Guess we gotta stay tuned for more neat stuff to come.
Confirmation of something Hubble found 8 years ago, and Jimbo giving deeper insights into the oldest (relative to today, so ~13.4 billion years ago), so therefore the earliest galaxy (measured from the estimated "big bang" - ~400M years old).
What Jimbo is seeing is evidence of what has been theorized, and some new stuff that has knocked the spacekids' socks off.
Bigger, earlier galaxies, the first generation of stars (100% made of hydrogen and helium, as heavier elements had NOT been fused yet in supernovae events), and black holes more massive than they even thought possible.
Our Sun is a third generation star, about halfway through its ~10 billion year life. It too is STILL mostly hydrogen and helium but its spectra has carbon, sulfur, magnesium, etc., in it. Its too small to EVER start fusing heavier (e.g, iron, lead, gold, etc.,) elements as it will never go novae.
So Hubble found the oldest galaxy in 2016 and past year Jimbo has been checking it out. One can veg out at the links. To laypeople like me, it just looks like a buncha colored dots. It is .. but they are of great significance in learned hands.
sources: Webb Unlocks Secrets of One of the Most Distant Galaxies Ever Seen - NASA Science, https://hubblesite.org/contents/news-releases/2016/news-2016-07.html
Immediately below, Hubble discovery of galaxy GN-z11 in 2016. One needs to look at a magnified pic WITH another magnifying device to see it.
Below, Webb pic of same object.
White box in lower right "blown up" in upper right, to see GN-z11. Looks like Webb sees "less". Quite to the contrary, Webb sees "through" things Hubble cant. Plus Webb can identify what stuff was made of - thatwas there 13 billion years ago.
And the giant black hole that was gorging itself on all the hydrogen/helium that was there. Webb sees NO other elements out there in this galaxy.
At the links, there's Webb's spectra work to determine the composition of this galaxy (again, they are only seeing primordial hydrogen and helium - the first elements they THOUGHT the early universe could make. That appears to have been the case .. ~13 billion years ago.
What does it all mean? Again, EOD, there will still be hungry people in the world, and it won't likely lead us to a cure for cancer. But .. this seems to be what humans do. We gotta figure stuff out. Same as we need air to breathe.
But to me, its like the more we know, the less we know. Then again that's kinda the point. It keeps the questions coming and the search for answers therefore remains alive.
"How" we got here? The science part is coming into clearer focus.
"Why" are we here? Depends on what one believes. Best to stay outta that discussion here.
As to Webb's mission? The ole' boy is hitting home runs on the scientific stuff. Guess we gotta stay tuned for more neat stuff to come.
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3175375
Senior Member
Nerd Alert - you can deep-dive at the link
source: Cheers! NASA’s Webb Finds Ethanol, Other Icy Ingredients for Worlds
Yep, pretty picture from Webb. This is a star-forming region WAY out there with a pro-star in it..
Recall, a buncha dust & gases congregate. gravity acts on density variations, clumps stuff together, that stuff gets hot, and sometimes a star results.
There's still a lotta stuff in the cloud, that stuff orbits new stars, makes a "disk" sometimes planets/asteroid from, that orbit the new sun, bang into each other, and may be a "solar system" comes outta all that in a few billion years.
There's more to it but we have kinda known that for a long time. Webb, however, is (1) confirming things, and (2) finding NEW things. This is the second thing.
It found a bunch of ORGANIC chemicals in this cloud IRAS 23385 (a long time ago and FAR FAR away from us, and everywhere we look).
SO what? These complex organics, are SAME as we have ON THIS PLANET, probably will wind up in solar sytems/planets WHEN/IF they form in the IRAS pro-star cloud.
SO what?
This could be WHAT happened here those billions of years ago.
Then you add the "bombardments" the planets (left the craters we see on the Moon) took from comets and asteriods, that were left-over from the STUFF in the clould, that didnt become planets, BUT has all these organics in them.
Earth formed with some of these complex organics, some arrived here when big rocks hit it, etc. Without these complex organics, theory is NO LIFE, as WE know it, that can form, on THIS rock.
THE POINT:
To my pea brain, Webb, nor anything else we put up there, will ever tell us "why" we are here.
I am pretty sure we are gonna eventually learn "how" we got here.
That in turn will like say something about "who/what" is responsible for LIFE, on this rock, or any other rock out there. Random events and time ad infinitum, or a deity did it. Or, some of both.
Topic for another forum
Meantime, Jimbo keeps makin' us smarter.
source: Cheers! NASA’s Webb Finds Ethanol, Other Icy Ingredients for Worlds
Yep, pretty picture from Webb. This is a star-forming region WAY out there with a pro-star in it..
Recall, a buncha dust & gases congregate. gravity acts on density variations, clumps stuff together, that stuff gets hot, and sometimes a star results.
There's still a lotta stuff in the cloud, that stuff orbits new stars, makes a "disk" sometimes planets/asteroid from, that orbit the new sun, bang into each other, and may be a "solar system" comes outta all that in a few billion years.
There's more to it but we have kinda known that for a long time. Webb, however, is (1) confirming things, and (2) finding NEW things. This is the second thing.
It found a bunch of ORGANIC chemicals in this cloud IRAS 23385 (a long time ago and FAR FAR away from us, and everywhere we look).
SO what? These complex organics, are SAME as we have ON THIS PLANET, probably will wind up in solar sytems/planets WHEN/IF they form in the IRAS pro-star cloud.
SO what?
This could be WHAT happened here those billions of years ago.
Then you add the "bombardments" the planets (left the craters we see on the Moon) took from comets and asteriods, that were left-over from the STUFF in the clould, that didnt become planets, BUT has all these organics in them.
Earth formed with some of these complex organics, some arrived here when big rocks hit it, etc. Without these complex organics, theory is NO LIFE, as WE know it, that can form, on THIS rock.
THE POINT:
To my pea brain, Webb, nor anything else we put up there, will ever tell us "why" we are here.
I am pretty sure we are gonna eventually learn "how" we got here.
That in turn will like say something about "who/what" is responsible for LIFE, on this rock, or any other rock out there. Random events and time ad infinitum, or a deity did it. Or, some of both.
Topic for another forum
Meantime, Jimbo keeps makin' us smarter.
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Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
Why might be a question best left to philosophers and theologians, but if we find good evidence that life is inevitable, the question becomes moot.
One of the best hypothesis that may provide evidence of life's inevitability is the RNA World Theory.
i learned (heard about) this one in the 1980's and never knew it continued to advance. fantastic vid!
makes sense as a theory and they have made significant progress. missing all the evidence but that may be coming.
still relies on "evolution" and the analysis tools are better than ever. i gotta start paying attention again.
i cant wait to stir up a discussion group i was in 40+ years ago when we sat on the "Diag" when weather was warm.
we're all still alive (eight of fourteen of us, but one of us left years ago because she didnt wanna go to "Hell") are senior citizens now, but still "fight" (with ideas that is) like we did as nerdy college kids with the whole world laid out in front of us.
anyway, i have my views. others feel as strongly but have different views. the remarkable thing is we are still "pals" after all these years (with some gaps in time of course, but thanks to the internet to say linked up!).
