Wiped cam on break-in

twostick said:
I will bet the rent the lifter on the flat lobe was not spinning ever. The FIRST thing you do after you button up the valve train on a flat tappet is turn the engine over and see if ALL the lifters spin and by spin I mean they should turn like they are all geared to the camshaft. If any don't turn or aren't consistent with the others, you need to remove them and check the lifter bore and the lifter itself to see why.

More times than not it's the lifter itself that is the problem, not the cam but the root cause of the failure is just taking parts out of a box, slamming them in and firing it up.

Kevin
Click to expand...
Possibly but it was multiple lifters. I think I found 3 lifters that didnt have damage ( honestly I dont want to even look at it ). I would hope they take the time to check clearances and not just toss it together. Anyone can throw something together . That's why I pay good $ for a reputable shop to do the build
 
OK, as mentioned earlier, many of us oldsters worked on the Chevy engines with the bad camshafts, although I have seen this problem on other G.M. engines.

The camshaft, and crankshaft ride on a cushion of oil, the mating surfaces of the shaft and bearing never touch. When you take the bad cam out look at the bearing surfaces, as long as they are not gouged up you will be OK.

Now for my personal opinion, I like to run factory parts in my engines. Why don't you look at the Mopar Performance catalog and get a camshaft from Chrysler that has the specs you want. You get a 1 year warranty with no questions asked.

Change the camshaft, lifters, and push-rods, drain the oil and change the filter, put it together with new parts, and get the correct oil to break it in and you should be fine
 
traintech55 said:
Why don't you look at the Mopar Performance catalog and get a camshaft from Chrysler that has the specs you want. You get a 1 year warranty with no questions asked
Click to expand...

Not a bad option , I'll check it out. I'll see what these guys have to say. Unfortunately no matter what it looks like itll be laid up until after Summertime.
 
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post,
Chrysler engines lubricate differently from G.M. or Ford. On all Chrysler engines they send oil from the camshaft, through the heads to lube the rocker arms, (Chrysler push-rods are not hollow except on the new magnums) For your small block your push-rods should not have a oiling hole in them.
When you reassemble the engine make sure you install the rocker arm shafts correctly, (Oiling holes down).
 
traintech55 said:
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post,
Chrysler engines lubricate differently from G.M. or Ford. On all Chrysler engines they send oil from the camshaft, through the heads to lube the rocker arms, (Chrysler push-rods are not hollow except on the new magnums) For your small block your push-rods should not have a oiling hole in them.
Click to expand...
Hmm that's interesting ... they had a hole in them

20190724_185531.jpg
 
traintech55 said:
OK, as mentioned earlier, many of us oldsters worked on the Chevy engines with the bad camshafts, although I have seen this problem on other G.M. engines.

The camshaft, and crankshaft ride on a cushion of oil, the mating surfaces of the shaft and bearing never touch. When you take the bad cam out look at the bearing surfaces, as long as they are not gouged up you will be OK.

Now for my personal opinion, I like to run factory parts in my engines. Why don't you look at the Mopar Performance catalog and get a camshaft from Chrysler that has the specs you want. You get a 1 year warranty with no questions asked.

Change the camshaft, lifters, and push-rods, drain the oil and change the filter, put it together with new parts, and get the correct oil to break it in and you should be fine
Click to expand...

Just an FYI but Chrysler doesn't make camshafts. Like most all parts, they are farmed out to the lowest bidder. As far as warranty goes, they would take one look and say "yep, improper break in procedure" and send you on your way.

That engine needs to be completely disassembled and cleaned meticulously. That crap will be everywhere you can't see inside.

Kevin
 
twostick said:
Just an FYI but Chrysler doesn't make camshafts. Like most all parts, they are farmed out to the lowest bidder. As far as warranty goes, they would take one look and say "yep, improper break in procedure" and send you on your way.

That engine needs to be completely disassembled and cleaned meticulously. That crap will be everywhere you can't see inside.

Kevin
Click to expand...
They may be farmed out to the lowest bidder, but the contract will specify the part is made to a certain standard. Ever seen a wiped out factory Chrysler camshaft?
 
Gen3 Hemis are known to have the occasional failure and they are roller cams.

90+% of flat tappet failures happen very shortly after the first fire up as the OP has discovered.

Any failures on pre Magnum non roller small blocks would happen long before the engine made it to the assembly line, assuming they test run them after assembly and if they don't, the bad ones would blow up on the way to the shipping dock.

In any case they aren't advertising it one way or the other.

Kevin
 
Anthony 71 Paisley said:
Hmm that's interesting ... they had a hole in them

20190724_185531-jpg.jpg
Click to expand...

That's... ummm... Interesting.

To me, that sends up a huge red flag about the shop. Wrong pushrod, so what else did they do wrong. It also doesn't look like a uniform hole, so that would make me look at what else is messed up.

There's a lot of things that can go wrong with cam break in. Did the engine start right away?
 
Anthony 71 Paisley said:
Nope , the shop did the disassembly & handed me back all the stock parts when I picked up the completed engine.
Click to expand...
Did they replace any push-rods? Do you have the old ones? Also pre Magnum engines DID NOT have holes in the top of the lifter. Do you have your old ones?
 
Back when the zddp (zinc additive) in the oils decreased, Comp Cams recommended Rotella T or synthetic oils. BTAIM

When I read the OP, the first thing I thought about was "How long between assembly of the engine and fire-up?" Second was "What kind/type of cam lube did they use?" These two CAN be related!

Typically, using the moly paste cam lobe lube used to be "desired". It stays put until it's rubbed away. If they just put it in, poured some "assembly lube" over the lifters and cam, that stuff quickly ends up on the oil pan. The ONLY lube the cam lobes otherwise get is from "splash" and "oil fly-off" from the crankshaft besrings. The cam BEARINGS get pressure lubed, but not the cam lobes. To me, this is a CRITICAL question to ask of the shop!!!

When the zddp levels of motor oil decreased below about 1000ppm, that was critical for higher-life camshaft longevity, by observation. Rebuilders AND some of the aftermarket hot rod cam makers do NOT Parkerize their cam lobes to the same extent as the OEMs do, which was my gut suspicion until it was proven by Clomp Cams offering additional Parkerizing as an option for their cams, later on, BEFORE everybody came out with their High ZDDP Oil Additives.

"Break-in Oil" might have more zddp content, but it's still oil. The cam lobes do not magically benefit from it until the oil splash gets to them.

As for the lifters turning, the lobes are tapered slightly (side to side) and the bottom of the valve lifters are "crowned" a small bit. This results sin the lifters turning/spinning as they go up and down. Kind of like "valve rotators" on engines that used to used them. The Chrysler factory 440 6 bbl cams were "low taper" to allow better longevity with the higher spring pressures of that motor. Think "more contact area between the lifter and cam lobe", greater pressure distribution.

To me, if you do purchase a Mopar Perf cam, it COULD be built to the same Parkerizing specs as the OEM Chrysler flat tappet cams, but I don't know that that is a "given". Especially on the cams they "re-sell" from other brand camshaft makers (i.e., Crane and similar). NO warranty guarantees with the Mopar Perf cam for similar situations, either. If they are like GM, the local dealership service manager will determine the warrantiability of the situation/failure Questions WILL be asked. No slam dunk!

IF the shop used Comp Cam lifters with the Comp Cams cam, that could be a plus. NO cam company will vouch for the lifters that somebody else sells, but if you bought THEIR lifters, THEY know where they came from and such. Another question whose answer is important!

With a catastrophic failure as you describe, the ONLY way to do things is to pull the engine down completely, get it tanked, flushed out, and start over again. Fresh/new bearings everywhere. Check the oil pump rotors for any wear/damage from the metalized oil, too. In other words, everything needs to be "as clean" as they made it after the initial teardown and rebuild.

Factory production engines, at the engine plant, are "fire tested" at the engine plant. IF they start, then they go through a 30 minute run-in on an instrumented test stand. THEN, if they pass their "Hot Test" (manifold vacuum, oil pressure, power output, and such), THEN they are tagged, bagged, and sent to the vehicle assembly line. So, when they are put into the vehicle, they've already run about 30 minutes or so at the engine plant, as a matter of course.

During the "break-in" period of a new-blocked engine, the "500 miles" rule is there to allow the cylinder block casting to do its final cure and for all of the moving parts to "mate" together for a long successful life (hopefully). This happens with hot/cold cycles during that time, as for the final curing process. In that time, some of the clearances might "move" a small bit, but this is figured into how the engine is built initially, so no real problem. When that engine is rebuilt and re-bored, the cured block has no later "movement" issues, so the machining of the used block will stay "dead-on" AND one reason that many racers desire used blocks to build race engine from.

Sorry for the length, but wanted you to understand what might have happened and why.

Contact the Shop as soon as possible, so that any warranties on the parts are still in place (time based usually). IF you wait to do that, you can lose some coverages in that respect. ALSO
be aware that any camshaft warranties are between YOU and the Cam Company itself--period. YOU being the final customer, unless the Shop desires to be the final customer of record. Just be prepared for that, if it might happen.

I realize that this might interfere with your desires to wait to pull the motor back out, for whatever reason, BUT the clock has started so your actions are important . . . even if it might interfere with your other plans. Just be cognizant of that.

Good luck,
CBODY67
 
That sucks. Kinda surprised the shop would just tell you to fire it up, even if they primed it. I was taught to prime the engine right before you fire it for break in, prime it and fire it up as soon as you can. Hope it all works out.
 
Man that sucks! Who installed the cam (and lifters) in the block, you or the shop? If the shop did and this shop won't make it right, the whatever you do, don't give them another dime. Take it somewhere else at that point.

I got a shop to do all of the machine work when I rebuilt my 390, but did all of the assembly myself, except wrist pins and cam bearings. I haven't rebuilt my 383 yet. It actually seems to run quite well for a 125,000 mile engine. No lifter noise, still has respectable oil pressure, but smokes on start up because of valve guides. Anyway, back to the 390. When I put the cam in, I liberally coated it with assembly lube and then slathered it with extreme pressure moly grease. I broke the engine in at 2K RPM for 25 minutes or so. Then I dumped the oil. I dumped the oil again at 50 miles, again at 100, then at 500 and finally at 2500. New filters every time of course. After that, I changed oil and filter every 2500 miles (4000 km) and now, after 20,000 miles, it seems to be staying together. I mention this because the shop owner said he would warranty his work, but of course wouldn't be responsible for any mistakes I might make. Also, that the 390 and other FE Ford engines oil the rocker arms the same way the Chryslers do, oil passages through block and heads to the rocker shafts and no holes in the pushrods. Some people install carb jets as restrictors to limit oil flow to the rocker shafts. I didn't.

Comp Cams must have been aware several years ago of an issue. I remember them saying they would "nitride" their cams, apparently at extra cost:confused:, to help prevent break-in failures. Seems odd that if they know there's a problem, they would charge us for extra protection, instead of fixing the problem. Not good for their reputation, if you ask me.

Seems to me that I was just reading a thread here a few days ago, where people were saying not to use roller cams in street engines. Seems the pieces that stop the lifters from turning tend to break. Then the roller turns sideways and goodbye camshaft. The new Hemis apparently have a problem with the bearings in the roller lifters themselves failing, as I understand it.
 
CBODY67 said:
Back when the zddp (zinc additive) in the oils decreased, Comp Cams recommended Rotella T or synthetic oils. BTAIM

When I read the OP, the first thing I thought about was "How long between assembly of the engine and fire-up?" Second was "What kind/type of cam lube did they use?" These two CAN be related!

Typically, using the moly paste cam lobe lube used to be "desired". It stays put until it's rubbed away. If they just put it in, poured some "assembly lube" over the lifters and cam, that stuff quickly ends up on the oil pan. The ONLY lube the cam lobes otherwise get is from "splash" and "oil fly-off" from the crankshaft besrings. The cam BEARINGS get pressure lubed, but not the cam lobes. To me, this is a CRITICAL question to ask of the shop!!!

When the zddp levels of motor oil decreased below about 1000ppm, that was critical for higher-life camshaft longevity, by observation. Rebuilders AND some of the aftermarket hot rod cam makers do NOT Parkerize their cam lobes to the same extent as the OEMs do, which was my gut suspicion until it was proven by Clomp Cams offering additional Parkerizing as an option for their cams, later on, BEFORE everybody came out with their High ZDDP Oil Additives.

"Break-in Oil" might have more zddp content, but it's still oil. The cam lobes do not magically benefit from it until the oil splash gets to them.

As for the lifters turning, the lobes are tapered slightly (side to side) and the bottom of the valve lifters are "crowned" a small bit. This results sin the lifters turning/spinning as they go up and down. Kind of like "valve rotators" on engines that used to used them. The Chrysler factory 440 6 bbl cams were "low taper" to allow better longevity with the higher spring pressures of that motor. Think "more contact area between the lifter and cam lobe", greater pressure distribution.

To me, if you do purchase a Mopar Perf cam, it COULD be built to the same Parkerizing specs as the OEM Chrysler flat tappet cams, but I don't know that that is a "given". Especially on the cams they "re-sell" from other brand camshaft makers (i.e., Crane and similar). NO warranty guarantees with the Mopar Perf cam for similar situations, either. If they are like GM, the local dealership service manager will determine the warrantiability of the situation/failure Questions WILL be asked. No slam dunk!

IF the shop used Comp Cam lifters with the Comp Cams cam, that could be a plus. NO cam company will vouch for the lifters that somebody else sells, but if you bought THEIR lifters, THEY know where they came from and such. Another question whose answer is important!

With a catastrophic failure as you describe, the ONLY way to do things is to pull the engine down completely, get it tanked, flushed out, and start over again. Fresh/new bearings everywhere. Check the oil pump rotors for any wear/damage from the metalized oil, too. In other words, everything needs to be "as clean" as they made it after the initial teardown and rebuild.

Factory production engines, at the engine plant, are "fire tested" at the engine plant. IF they start, then they go through a 30 minute run-in on an instrumented test stand. THEN, if they pass their "Hot Test" (manifold vacuum, oil pressure, power output, and such), THEN they are tagged, bagged, and sent to the vehicle assembly line. So, when they are put into the vehicle, they've already run about 30 minutes or so at the engine plant, as a matter of course.

During the "break-in" period of a new-blocked engine, the "500 miles" rule is there to allow the cylinder block casting to do its final cure and for all of the moving parts to "mate" together for a long successful life (hopefully). This happens with hot/cold cycles during that time, as for the final curing process. In that time, some of the clearances might "move" a small bit, but this is figured into how the engine is built initially, so no real problem. When that engine is rebuilt and re-bored, the cured block has no later "movement" issues, so the machining of the used block will stay "dead-on" AND one reason that many racers desire used blocks to build race engine from.

Sorry for the length, but wanted you to understand what might have happened and why.

Contact the Shop as soon as possible, so that any warranties on the parts are still in place (time based usually). IF you wait to do that, you can lose some coverages in that respect. ALSO
be aware that any camshaft warranties are between YOU and the Cam Company itself--period. YOU being the final customer, unless the Shop desires to be the final customer of record. Just be prepared for that, if it might happen.

I realize that this might interfere with your desires to wait to pull the motor back out, for whatever reason, BUT the clock has started so your actions are important . . . even if it might interfere with your other plans. Just be cognizant of that.

Good luck,
CBODY67
Click to expand...

Thanks, yeah. It was 2 weeks and 2 days from when they primed it ( and sent me video ) till fire up. They said if it was going to be 6 months or more then reprime otherwise I'll be good to go. ..
I did contact them ( after I cooled down a bit). Originally I thought it was just #3 exhaust. The one that came out of the rocker the lifter was like a plunger (able to push down very easily)... He called me almost immediately (even though hes on vacation) they said they would get me a replacement lifter and pushrod .. Then I pulled the intake to see more of the damage & contacted him again he gets back to work tommorrow I'll see what he says...

I was just curious if I was out of line to expect them to cover the damage or should I expect to be on my own.
 
Last edited:
Wildaugust said:
Who installed the cam (and lifters) in the block, you or the shop?
Click to expand...

The shop did everything except carb , plugs and wires .
I paid good money to not have headaches .
If ANYONE is going to do a crap job Itll be me and I'll save the $
But i also dont know if it's the Comp cam and lifters or assembly or the oil or my break in process... i did what they recommended because i had that nagging feeling i was going to have issues ( I've heard of too many flat tappet failures on break in) but i have no proof ...
Who knows maybe they'll be great about it and cover everything no questions asked... I just dont know what to expect
 
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