ZDDP in engine oil

I gotta agree with Kevin on the filter. You want more filter for a road car (taller/longer). Race filter is a ridiculous term. What kind of racing?
Drag racing the engine never gets really warm long enough to burn out dilution, filter does squat.
Road racing gets it hot enough but really how long are you leaving it in there if it is constantly coming up against 6-7000 RPM
Circle track, same how many weekends are you leaving the oil in there.
If your oil is getting that dirty racing you probably need to change it more.
WIX is really proud of their filters. With a close to stock, less than 3000 mi per season I'm not spending that much on a filter, and a drain back valve is pretty useless on a BB Chrysler, so unless it is going to rip loose and wrap around the filter medium I don't care what it is made out of. The bypass valve should never come into use with frequent oil changes. The end caps on medium made from cardboard or steel? Well the paper bonds to other paper pretty damn good with the right glue. Finding a glue that works with steel and paper seems more of a challenge, maybe that's why they are so expensive.
 
Helpful thread, but I have a question.
My engine came with 20/50 racing oil. I have ran 20/50 Valvoline old car oil but have been adding Lucas ZDDP. Do I need the Lucas? I have seen people saying zddp just at break in. Yes? No?

My engine has valve clatter first few seconds at start, so I went to 10W/30 and it didn’t seem to help. I’ll go back to 20/50.
 
Joseph James said:
Helpful thread, but I have a question.
My engine came with 20/50 racing oil. I have ran 20/50 Valvoline old car oil but have been adding Lucas ZDDP. Do I need the Lucas? I have seen people saying zddp just at break in. Yes? No?

My engine has valve clatter first few seconds at start, so I went to 10W/30 and it didn’t seem to help. I’ll go back to 20/50.
Click to expand...
Unless you're using oil containg ZDDP, yes you need to use a additive such as the Lucas you are adding. You may have one or more lifters bleeding down causing the noise until oil pressure comes up. Do you drive your car daily? What ambient temps are on your region of the country. If you're just driving it in the summer 20/50 is ok colder temps would require a lighter weight oil as temps drop.
 
Newport 66 said:
Unless you're using oil containg ZDDP, yes you need to use a additive such as the Lucas you are adding. You may have one or more lifters bleeding down causing the noise until oil pressure comes up. Do you drive your car daily? What ambient temps are on your region of the country. If you're just driving it in the summer 20/50 is ok colder temps would require a lighter weight oil as temps drop.
Click to expand...
I am in NC. Coldest day this winter was 16 F. Usually low 20s high 40ish. I drive the car daily. The clatter is only two or three seconds, but I worry about cumulative effect.
 
70bigblockdodge said:
I gotta agree with Kevin on the filter. You want more filter for a road car (taller/longer). Race filter is a ridiculous term. What kind of racing?
Drag racing the engine never gets really warm long enough to burn out dilution, filter does squat.
Road racing gets it hot enough but really how long are you leaving it in there if it is constantly coming up against 6-7000 RPM
Circle track, same how many weekends are you leaving the oil in there.
If your oil is getting that dirty racing you probably need to change it more.
WIX is really proud of their filters. With a close to stock, less than 3000 mi per season I'm not spending that much on a filter, and a drain back valve is pretty useless on a BB Chrysler, so unless it is going to rip loose and wrap around the filter medium I don't care what it is made out of. The bypass valve should never come into use with frequent oil changes. The end caps on medium made from cardboard or steel? Well the paper bonds to other paper pretty damn good with the right glue. Finding a glue that works with steel and paper seems more of a challenge, maybe that's why they are so expensive.
Click to expand...

The bypass valve comes in handy on cold mornings if you are running a heavier oil and it doesn't want to just scoot through the filter. No bypass and the pump just opens the pressure relief and flow slows right down.

As far as cost goes, it's not like the Wix is $100 and the Fram is $5. I think I pay $7 or $8 CDN for Napa which are Wix.

Kevin
 
I've been very happy with the Motorcraft 10w-30 diesel engine oil, which, unlike current Rotella oils, still has ~1000 ppm of zinc. Mathilda HAD a noisy lifter which quieted down at first running Rotella T5 a couple yrs ago, but as the new stuff came on, the chatter resumed. I added Rislone's zinc additive, and it went away after about a week. Next oil change I went to the Motorcraft stuff, which is clearly labeled as NOT for anything w a catalytic converter. We haven't heard from that chatty lifter now in nearly 18 months.

I use Wix 51515 filters, which allow me to change the oil without priming the oil pump, unlike the K & N filters I had tried prior to that. I've checked other diesel engine oils for ZDDP but none of them seem too forthcoming on their zinc content anymore.

I plan to go to Brad Penn if/when I get the 400 built.
 
Gerald Morris said:
I've been very happy with the Motorcraft 10w-30 diesel engine oil, which, unlike current Rotella oils, still has ~1000 ppm of zinc. Mathilda HAD a noisy lifter which quieted down at first running Rotella T5 a couple yrs ago, but as the new stuff came on, the chatter resumed. I added Rislone's zinc additive, and it went away after about a week. Next oil change I went to the Motorcraft stuff, which is clearly labeled as NOT for anything w a catalytic converter. We haven't heard from that chatty lifter now in nearly 18 months.

I use Wix 51515 filters, which allow me to change the oil without priming the oil pump, unlike the K & N filters I had tried prior to that. I've checked other diesel engine oils for ZDDP but none of them seem too forthcoming on their zinc content anymore.

I plan to go to Brad Penn if/when I get the 400 built.
Click to expand...

Pick the flavor you want to know about and get an oil analysis kit from a big truck shop like Kenworth or a Cat or Cummins engine dealer.

Bobistheoilguy has several 15w40 oil analysis posted.

A Review of Mineral and Synthetic Base Oils - Bob is the Oil Guy

Kevin
 
I can only comment on street use engines, but these folks who use a 15/xx or 20/xx oil make me cringe. The worst wear period for gas engines (except severe duty towing service, police, etc.) is cold startup. Its especially bad for limited use engines where the oil gets to drain off parts. The engineers I ask at Chrysler/ FCA tell me the worst wear occurs at cold startup, so the lighter weight primary number is important unless you live in Texas and use the engine every day.
And yes ZDDP is important for flat tappet engines. Consider that all the domestic OEM's sold ZDDP additives back in the day in their service parts lines, I suspect that they stay emulsified in the oil pretty well and do what they are supposed to do. Engineers hate getting nailed with warranty expense!
BTW, I was a 30 year Chrysler veteran in Service /and Parts (Mopar) including a stint at Mopar Performance.
Mark
 
1970FuryConv said:
We did not check valve open pressure. I did not know that we needed to. The 1106 springs are matched to the cam. Both from Hughes.
Click to expand...

A flat tappet cam is going to need the zinc regardless of the open pressure, however, the higher the spring tension the greater the need. The ideal spring tension is usually listed in the spec sheet for most cams, if it is not you can call their tech support, they probably can also tell you the desired level of zinc additive as they usually run extensive testing on their products, especially when they are supplying the springs.

Dave
 
michiganhotrod1 said:
I can only comment on street use engines, but these folks who use a 15/xx or 20/xx oil make me cringe. The worst wear period for gas engines (except severe duty towing service, police, etc.) is cold startup. Its especially bad for limited use engines where the oil gets to drain off parts. The engineers I ask at Chrysler/ FCA tell me the worst wear occurs at cold startup, so the lighter weight primary number is important unless you live in Texas and use the engine every day.
And yes ZDDP is important for flat tappet engines. Consider that all the domestic OEM's sold ZDDP additives back in the day in their service parts lines, I suspect that they stay emulsified in the oil pretty well and do what they are supposed to do. Engineers hate getting nailed with warranty expense!
BTW, I was a 30 year Chrysler veteran in Service /and Parts (Mopar) including a stint at Mopar Performance.
Mark
Click to expand...

WORDS OF GOLDEN WISDOM!! One can READ the FSM for these B/RB or the A/LA engines too and Mopar recommended first and foremost 10/30w oils. Straight 30w is their favorite single weight. I tried 10/40w for my first year with my 383, and had to prime the oil pump after oil changes, and had a noisy lifter. When I went to 10/30w Rotella T5, both of those problems went away, and after going to Motorcraft's diesel engine oil, that motor has run as close to perfectly as one could hope for a 50+ yr old engine with unknowable mileage.
 
70bigblockdodge said:
I gotta agree with Kevin on the filter. You want more filter for a road car (taller/longer). Race filter is a ridiculous term. What kind of racing?
Drag racing the engine never gets really warm long enough to burn out dilution, filter does squat.
Road racing gets it hot enough but really how long are you leaving it in there if it is constantly coming up against 6-7000 RPM
Circle track, same how many weekends are you leaving the oil in there.
If your oil is getting that dirty racing you probably need to change it more.
WIX is really proud of their filters. With a close to stock, less than 3000 mi per season I'm not spending that much on a filter, and a drain back valve is pretty useless on a BB Chrysler, so unless it is going to rip loose and wrap around the filter medium I don't care what it is made out of. The bypass valve should never come into use with frequent oil changes. The end caps on medium made from cardboard or steel? Well the paper bonds to other paper pretty damn good with the right glue. Finding a glue that works with steel and paper seems more of a challenge, maybe that's why they are so expensive.
Click to expand...

Two professional engine builders can't be wrong on using racing spec oil filters.
 
FURYGT said:
Two professional engine builders can't be wrong on using racing spec oil filters.
Click to expand...
Racing engines can need more flow due to their larger bearing tolerances and probably get rebuilt more often. The racing filter has a higher flow rate but, as a side effect, will pass particles of a size large enough that it could hurt a street engine. The WIX filter (designated with an "R" at the end of the filter number) notes this on the side of the filter as "NOT FOR STREET USE"
 
MEV said:
Racing engines can need more flow due to their larger bearing tolerances and probably get rebuilt more often. The racing filter has a higher flow rate but, as a side effect, will pass particles of a size large enough that it could hurt a street engine. The WIX filter (designated with an "R" at the end of the filter number) notes this on the side of the filter as "NOT FOR STREET USE"
Click to expand...

Points taken. The Flyin' Whale has a full out racing engine with large clearances and requires straight 50W oil (built by the former owner and Porter Engines in Maine.

My '68 Sport Fury's 520" built be the late Nick Wilson, owner of Comp-U-Flow recommended the filter ending in R for that engine since it is a street/strip car that sees some drag racing action. My understanding is that there is something with the internal valving or flow in the racing oil filter that helps when you launch and the oil moves toward the back of the pan.

Would be nice to know the intended use of the engine of the person who started this thread.
 
For street engines, ( racing units have a whole different set of needs), run Mobil 1 10w30 in all my good vehicles. It has 900 ppm zinc and never had a problem, including break-in of multiple hydraulic tappet cams with my super secret lithium break-in grease. Infact the engines are the cleanest inside I've ever seen. No build up anywhere. Use a good quality oil and pull the distributor and prelube the engine thoroughly and you shouldn't have a problem. I think the only place you could get into trouble is with a fast rate ramp cam. I say this because it was the GM's and Ford's that were wiping cams and they have the smaller lifter base diameter. But the zinc is there. Infact inread too much zinc can be just as bad. Forgot why but something like over1500 ppm was leaving deposits.
 
FURYGT said:
Points taken. The Flyin' Whale has a full out racing engine with large clearances and requires straight 50W oil (built by the former owner and Porter Engines in Maine.

My '68 Sport Fury's 520" built be the late Nick Wilson, owner of Comp-U-Flow recommended the filter ending in R for that engine since it is a street/strip car that sees some drag racing action. My understanding is that there is something with the internal valving or flow in the racing oil filter that helps when you launch and the oil moves toward the back of the pan.

Would be nice to know the intended use of the engine of the person who started this thread.
Click to expand...
Yeah, my 505 stroker in my newyorker is clearanced for 20-50, and i frequently drag race it. I still used the street filter, upon recomendation of my cam grinder and lifter manufacturer. He wanted a certain oil centistoke number for my lifters. His lifter (hydraulic roller) requirements invalidated my 20-50 (valvoline VR). He gave me 2 options for oil that would meet my main bearing clearance requirements and his lifter flow requirements. Ford straight 50 racing oil (for their 500KR) motor, or mobile 1 high mileage 10-40. He said its additive package and centistoke number were within his requirements. The stroker kit manufacturer warned me not to use the race filter. I have been using the mobile 1 successfully for 2.5 years now, although i have not examined the main bearing shells since switching.
 
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