'69 440 first start : fuel supply problem

[CitronPresse]

Hi there!

I'm restarting my '69 300 that has been stopped since about 30 years
You can see the full story here:
Finally got my dream car : 2-dr 300!

I'll try to explain this in as much detail as possible...
When I got the car it was running with a fuel can in the engine compartment (the fuel pump was drawing directly from the can) because the original fuel tank was completely shot (same thing for the fuel sending unit)

The car was starting and running very well...until it ran out of fuel (the can ran empty) then stalls, right before I take it out of the trailer in front of my house
Not worried more than necessary, I just refilled the can and tried to restart but nothing to do, the fuel didn't arrive anymore, as if the fuel pump was dead...
I fugured the carb was only flooded so I pushed the car into the garage and thought I would try again tomorrow
But the next day, same problem...

I was planning to replace the whole fuel system anyway so no problem, that's what I did:
-replaced the fuel tank (brand new Spectra CR20B with the 2 vents like the OEM one)

-replaced the fuel sending unit (apparently identical to the OEM one)

-sandblasted and repainted the fuel filler neck

-replaced the neck seal

-removed all the (dry rotten) old rubber fuel lines

-cleaned up all the steel fuel lines with a compressor, apparently none of them has a hole and none is plugged either: the air comes out at the end of each of them

-installed brand new 5/16 rubber fuel lines (for carb fuel system) with new collars: one about 7in long between the sending unit and the first steel line (under the car's trunk), one about 4in long in the middle of the car (at the passenger door), another 7in long between the fuel pump and the fuel filter and another one between the filter and the copper fuel line that brings fuel to the carb
For the rubber fuel line that runs between the steel line coming out of the front passenger side frame rail and the fuel pump, I leave the old one because it didn't look dry or split
I also replaced the two fuel vents rubber (1/4) lines

I didn't replace the fuel pump obviously because it was working fine 2 weeks ago (the car was running when I got it)
So, since the pump is okay, the fuel lines are okay, the tank and the fuel sending unit are okay, it should run...but it doesn't work, same symptoms: I crank the starter, but we feel that the fuel doesn't arrive
I read on the net that it may be necessary to prime the pump because could have sucked in air when it ran out of gas

So since the fuel pump on these cars doesn't have a manual lever to prime it, I applied this method:
How to Prime a Carburetor and Fuel Pump

The idea is to actually make the engine run because the fuel pump is more efficient when the engine runs by itself rather than only cranked by the starter
Before that I even try to suck in the fuel manually to the front with a syringe before: I connected a big syringe after the fuel pump (instead of the fuel filter) and successfully aspirated the fuel from the tank...proof that the lines are free of any obstruction

Seeing that the path to the pump wasn't obstructed I told myself that if the pump sucked as much as the syringe the gas should arrive...but it doesn't seem to work wither

I pour a little starter fluid or gas (I tried both) in the carb, the engine starts then stalls as soon as the small quantity of fuel is consumed, fuel never reaches the carb

I finally began to suspect the pump, but I disconnected the line just after the pump and tried: the gas comes out as it should...

I tried many and many times, nothing

There were about 4 gallons of fresh gas (supreme fuel of course) in the tank this morning, I added 3 after a few unsuccessful tries, so there are now 7 gallons, is it enough to prime the whole system?
The fuel gauge barely moves when I turn on the ignition...I think the tank is a 24 gallons so with 7 gallons in it the gauge should be between a quarter and a half so there is probably something wrong with the gauge too...yet I had installed another fuel sending unit model before this one (I didn't keep it because it was looking too cheap) and the gauge worked perfectly (by moving the sender's float by hand)...
Do you think my problem could be that there is not enough fuel in the tank?

A friend told me that the line between the pump and the filter may be too bent and could cause an air-lock...

All the ignition system was perfectly working 2 weeks ago so I think it should be okay, when the engine starts (thanks to the fuel in the carb) it runs pretty well, I still checked the distributor and the coil, everything looks good

So there you go, I'm really sorry for the length of the message, thank you to those who will have the courage to read it in its entirety, and hope someone can advise me, what would you try? I start to be discouraged

 

[Big_John]

I finally began to suspect the pump, but I disconnected the line just after the pump and tried: the gas comes out as it should...

What kind of volume? Does it just dribble out or does it shoot out with some force, enough to fill a soda bottle in minute?

 

[4spd300J]

I would be looking at a new fuel pump. If this one has been dormant for all of those years the diaphragm is probably toast. It might work for a short time, but the newer fuels will ruin the diaphragm. Run a pressure test on the pump and see what it puts out. Also, I have found that a lot of the rubber fuel hose doesn't last long with the crap they call gas these days. I have been using the bulk fuel injection hose for all of the connections. It costs more, but will last many years longer.

 

[Davea Lux]

Try disconnecting the output side of the fuel pump and route a hose to a capture container. Now prime the engine and have a helper start it to see if you get a good fuel flow. With the engine running you should get a robust flow of fuel. If you do not, the pump has probably failed. If you get a good flow of fuel, the floats on the carb many be corroded and stuck shut, a common problem on car that has sat for a long time.

Dave

 

[1970cat]

try taking a hammer and tapping around the fuel inlet of the carb. (not too hard). the needle may be stuck in the seat.

 

[rkrochen]

If you have fuel at the fuel pump you have plenty in the tank to start the car. If it starts when pouring gas in the carb the ignition is good. In all likelihood it’s the pump failed and it should probably be replaced anyways.
A good pump doesn’t need to be primed and will spray gas all over If you take the hose off. The best way to test it is with a gauge or place the hose into a container or bottle.
I wouldn’t recommend that you follow the procedures that you read about as it could cause a fire. Also I would never use starting fluid to start the car as it can lead to severe engine damage.

 

[Davea Lux]

If the pump proves to be bad, source a Carter pump, the China Crap pumps they sell at Auto Bone and Car Crap are very poor quality.

Dave

 

[cbarge]

Just because "it worked two weeks ago" does not mean it is still OK.
Running a dormant engine for the first time in years is like waking up the troll under the bridge--you are going to have problems.
Replace the fuel pump--no questions. It will fail in time--been there done that.
Also, just to get her running if you or a friend have a good carburetor you know that works put it on.
It is next to impossible to tune the motor on an old carb that sat 30 years.
I strongly recommend rebuilding the original carb. A lot of internals will be dried out for sure plus years of sitting is not good for them and prolly varnished up inside and as mentioned may have clogged jets or stuck floats.
Also check the fuel pump rod for any wear.
Any "dry starts" can shorten the life of the fuel pump pushrod.
Double check for spark. 30 year old points can burn up real quick.

My point is get rid of any weak links.

My Waygun sat between 1997 and 2010...The first day driving my Waygun I had to swap out the rear u-joint. Then when I got home after 3 hour drive the fuel pump started to leak.
A week later the water pump failed..a month later a front caliper siezed.
Since them all cars that I work on that sat for years I replace all perishables and parts that WILL FAIL,use new parts or part I know that work to be reliable right out of the gate.
Actually my girlfriend and I are waiting for the pandemic and warmer weather tso we can revive her 69 Fury II that was dormant for years.It too runs and drives but I know there are a few time bombs that need to be addressed!
Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[hemi71x]

Also check the fuel pump rod for any wear.

I agree with this members comment.
Always overlooked on an old engine with fuel delivery issues.

 

[volksworld]

x2 on checking the pump push rod...when i got mine 20 yrs ago the po had hooked up an electric pump...and the pump rod turned out to be the reason...no idea if this is a common problem on big blocks or if i'm just lucky...on rebuilding the carb, the new kits should also have an accellerator pump diaphram thats compatible with modern fuel or have one available seperately as an option...i dont know what position you had the original gas can in but if it was high enough you could have been gravity feeding the carb in the first place and the pump was irrelevant

 

[CitronPresse]

Hey guys thank you very much for all of your replies!
I have a good theory in mechanics but little experience so your help is very precious to me!

To see your messages there is a good chance that my pump is failed, at least it's not a very expensive part and I had planned to replace it as a precaution one day or the other...is it an operation which is done easily even for a beginner or would I better entrust that at a garage?

I have a '70 440 engine (from a NewYorker) in my garage that I plan to get in the car in a year or two, this engine comes from a car that drove regularly (and very well) until about 3 years ago, and I'll check but I wouldn't be surprised if the pump is almost new, I'll take it at least while waiting if I have trouble getting a new one because of the coronavirus

What kind of volume? Does it just dribble out or does it shoot out with some force, enough to fill a soda bottle in minute?

I was alone when I did these tests so I didn't see the flow in real time but for the short time the engine had been running there was a good amount of gas spilled and it had spurted far enough...
I'll try the test again today but with an assistant
Could even film to post it here because I probably couldn't determine by myself if the flow is normal or not

Also, I have found that a lot of the rubber fuel hose doesn't last long with the crap they call gas these days. I have been using the bulk fuel injection hose for all of the connections. It costs more, but will last many years longer.

Oh I didn't know I could use fuel injection lines!
I wouldn't have minded paying a little more for something more durable, as long as replacing them

Try disconnecting the output side of the fuel pump and route a hose to a capture container. Now prime the engine and have a helper start it to see if you get a good fuel flow. With the engine running you should get a robust flow of fuel. If you do not, the pump has probably failed. If you get a good flow of fuel, the floats on the carb many be corroded and stuck shut, a common problem on car that has sat for a long time.
Dave

Yes I'll try this another time today but with an helper!

try taking a hammer and tapping around the fuel inlet of the carb. (not too hard). the needle may be stuck in the seat.

Good trick, I'll try that too! Thanks!

If you have fuel at the fuel pump you have plenty in the tank to start the car. If it starts when pouring gas in the carb the ignition is good. In all likelihood it’s the pump failed and it should probably be replaced anyways.
A good pump doesn’t need to be primed and will spray gas all over If you take the hose off. The best way to test it is with a gauge or place the hose into a container or bottle.
I wouldn’t recommend that you follow the procedures that you read about as it could cause a fire. Also I would never use starting fluid to start the car as it can lead to severe engine damage.

Okay for the starting fluid, thanks I didn't know, I already used a lot yesterday unfortunately but for my little test today I'll only try with gas, I have no choice but to use this method to test the flow of the pump because it's the only way to get the engine running (for a very short time but still), but I'll not abuse it anymore in the future, anyway this test will probably confirm (well I hope) that the pump needs to be replaced

Just because "it worked two weeks ago" does not mean it is still OK.
Running a dormant engine for the first time in years is like waking up the troll under the bridge--you are going to have problems.
Replace the fuel pump--no questions. It will fail in time--been there done that.
Also, just to get her running if you or a friend have a good carburetor you know that works put it on.
It is next to impossible to tune the motor on an old carb that sat 30 years.
I strongly recommend rebuilding the original carb. A lot of internals will be dried out for sure plus years of sitting is not good for them and prolly varnished up inside and as mentioned may have clogged jets or stuck floats.
Also check the fuel pump rod for any wear.
Any "dry starts" can shorten the life of the fuel pump pushrod.
Double check for spark. 30 year old points can burn up real quick.
My point is get rid of any weak links.
My Waygun sat between 1997 and 2010...The first day driving my Waygun I had to swap out the rear u-joint. Then when I got home after 3 hour drive the fuel pump started to leak.
A week later the water pump failed..a month later a front caliper siezed.
Since them all cars that I work on that sat for years I replace all perishables and parts that WILL FAIL,use new parts or part I know that work to be reliable right out of the gate.
Actually my girlfriend and I are waiting for the pandemic and warmer weather tso we can revive her 69 Fury II that was dormant for years.It too runs and drives but I know there are a few time bombs that need to be addressed!
Hope this helps and good luck!
View attachment 371201
View attachment 371200

Got it, thanks a lot for your advice!
I had several barnfind cars which had not driven for a long time, including a '80 Monarch with which hadn't run for 15-20 years and I drove it almost without any repair during 2 years, but I may have been lucky too

I think I'll have a lot of work to do on this 300 unfortunately, but it's worth it

For the carb I have an almost new one, a beautiful Holley (which also comes from the NewYorker 70 of which I spoke above)
In fact the basic plan was to have the car towed directly from his barn to my mechanic (who is very competent with old landyachts), I planned to have him examine the car fully and tell me everything that needed to be replaced in addition to making him install my carburetor before anything else, but the pandemic has decided otherwise, my mechanic is closed so I try to move on by myself but I can't wait to be able to give him the car

Also check the fuel pump rod for any wear.
I agree with this members comment.
Always overlooked on an old engine with fuel delivery issues.

Fuel pump rod...another thing!
Something like that?
Fuel Pump Pushrods-440 Source
The engine must be opened to replace that?
If the rod is worn would I be better off installing an electric pump?

x2 on checking the pump push rod...when i got mine 20 yrs ago the po had hooked up an electric pump...and the pump rod turned out to be the reason...no idea if this is a common problem on big blocks or if i'm just lucky...on rebuilding the carb, the new kits should also have an accellerator pump diaphram thats compatible with modern fuel or have one available seperately as an option...i dont know what position you had the original gas can in but if it was high enough you could have been gravity feeding the carb in the first place and the pump was irrelevant

Alright thanks!

If the pump proves to be bad, source a Carter pump, the China Crap pumps they sell at Auto Bone and Car Crap are very poor quality.
Dave

Thanks!
On Rockauto there is 2 models for the Carter pump
1969 CHRYSLER 300 7.2L 440cid V8 Fuel Pump | RockAuto
Neither looks like the one on my car but I know it has been replaced in the past (about 35 year ago)...
Engine VIN L or K, the only way to check is to read the engine number on the driver's side near the starter opening or is there an other way to find this info?
My 440 engine is not the original one from 1969 but a 1973 engine

 

[3C's & a D?]

Looks like you want the "K" one. The L one has a 1/2 inch outlet, I'm guessing for multi carb deals. The rod is accessible once the pump is removed. Getting closer!

 

[jct]

Hughes Engines

 

[stubs300]

Also check the fuel pump rod for any wear.

I would replace this before I go buy a new pump. Good Luck

 

[Big_John]

The fuel pump rod IF it needs replacing is pretty easy. Pull the pump and there's a small plug screwed into the block right below it. Take the plug out and you can wiggle the rod down through.

Personally, I think the original is better than most of the replacements out there, but you can check the length easy enough with a pair of calipers. It should measure 3.25" long.

Of course, if it turns out that it's pumping gas like it should, don't bother with it.

 

[stubs300]

Good point BJ, here's a idea. Pull the pick up to pump line at the pump and blow through the line and have someone listen for bubbles at the tank. If it blows easy and bubbles good, you know that lines good. Do the same with the other line to the carb. If that's good, I would say you have a carb problem. Good Luck

 

[MoPar Maniac]

Fill the float bowl with gas. With the fuel line hooked up start the engine. The full bowl will have hopefully unstuck the float if it was stuck and will run long enough to get the pump to get fuel to the carb.
If it still dies ya know ya have a bad pump....or carb float, needle and seat.

Or replace the pump anyway but still fill the bowl.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Your old pump worked till it didn't. Go get a new pump.

 

[jct]

Did you buy a new pump yet?

 

[CitronPresse]

Sorry guys I'm still at the same point I didn't find time to remove the pump yet,
I only took time to put some WD40 on the pump bolts as a precaution
I'm going to take it out this afternoon!

Looks like you want the "K" one. The L one has a 1/2 inch outlet, I'm guessing for multi carb deals. The rod is accessible once the pump is removed. Getting closer!

Great! Thanks for the info!

Hughes Engines

Wonderful! In addition it's quite affordable!

I would replace this before I go buy a new pump. Good Luck

Good point!
I'll remove the pump and check the rod before buying a new pump

The fuel pump rod IF it needs replacing is pretty easy. Pull the pump and there's a small plug screwed into the block right below it. Take the plug out and you can wiggle the rod down through.
Personally, I think the original is better than most of the replacements out there, but you can check the length easy enough with a pair of calipers. It should measure 3.25" long.
Of course, if it turns out that it's pumping gas like it should, don't bother with it.

Good news, thanks!

Good point BJ, here's a idea. Pull the pick up to pump line at the pump and blow through the line and have someone listen for bubbles at the tank. If it blows easy and bubbles good, you know that lines good. Do the same with the other line to the carb. If that's good, I would say you have a carb problem. Good Luck

Good idea, I had blown through all the steel lines already before installing the new rubber ones but I'll try again if I don't find any problem with the pump and its rod ;)

Fill the float bowl with gas. With the fuel line hooked up start the engine. The full bowl will have hopefully unstuck the float if it was stuck and will run long enough to get the pump to get fuel to the carb.
If it still dies ya know ya have a bad pump....or carb float, needle and seat.
Or replace the pump anyway but still fill the bowl.

Good trick thanks!
Anyway I plan to replace the carb I have an almost new Holley performance but it'll be a job for my mechanics, I hope to succeed in starting the car (and make it work) with its current carb to bring it to the garage