72 Fury 360 Frozen bolt..OMG help

[MBar]

We've already been over this in another thread about the oil pan with replacing a timing chain/cover gasket, pfffft is this the car with the rust inside the valve covers?

IMO with all the crude clogging the two water passages to the block I'd say the motor was overheated and cooked and you really at this point don't wanna see whats in the oil pan.
Get it running enough to do a couple 500/1k mile oil changes and see how the engine is from there.

(edit) You wanna ruin a good shop vac?

(edit2) OMG yes it is.

View attachment 226204

Repeat Batman That's Nasty meme

Yup... But that wasn't rust... It was very fine powder that vacuumed up.. I put a bit of it in oil and it dissolved immediately...and it wasnt gritty between my fingers... And I think the crud in the cooling system is from sitting. It also dissolves immediately in water. Freeze plugs all look good from outside and there doesn't seem to be evidence of coolant splash from overheating...and I just spoke with the old owner who told me again that it ran fine when parked and was started monthly but nobody ever needed to drive it so all good signs considering. Truth is I'm at the point of no return anyway. The next few days will tell.

 

[MBar]

So I have spent time cleaning this up. here are a couple of pics...anyway, I posted this question under mechanical as well to maximize exposure for an answer... don't know if that makes a difference and any advice on protocol/good manner is appreciated


I am ready to re-assemble. I should know better but thought I would remember...
The order of parts on the crankshaft...
Timing gear, then
Slinger with flat part toward gear
Felt-like ring

Is this correct?
Also, that slinger looks awful close to the chain. Is that normal?

And, there were two different gasket kits so I got them both... the difference is one comes with a repair sleeve. I don't see any obvious wear on the shaft so my guess is I don't need it. Is there any benefit to installing it anyway? I bet not...

That fitting for the water hose that comes off the manifold doesn't look the greatest but it is solid...With the great access I have right now, I am tempted to replace it but with the bolt issues I have had so far I don't wanna buy more trouble. any opinions on that? I think it is a pipe-wrench kinda job...

 

[Davea Lux]

Your slinger is installed correctly, tight fit is because the double roller chain you installed is slightly wider, but that should not be a problem. (Note: double roller chain is serious over kill for this engine). Do not install a repair sleeve on the hub unless you need it. I would leave the hose bib alone as long as it is solid, they have an annoying habit of twisting off. Be sure to oil the new timing chain and the front seal prior to re-installing the timing cover. Note that some models of double roller chains require a custom timing cover, so read the instructions for your chain to see if you need one.

Dave

 

[rags]

repair sleeve is for the balancer, but as dave says above probably not needed. keep going, you're doin' good.

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

Yea as in a previous timing cover thread I think you want to remove most of the front oil pan bolts to drop the pan down (hope you didn't permatex the F' outta the gasket as Mark Wormhead does) to aid in ease of compression of the lower half circle rubber seal. (doesn't look like you have the oil pan gasket installed yet in the picture so... nevermind?)

And make sure you have the proper torque and Loctite on the cam sprocket bolt.
I had to correct, oops no, but had a big laff and a I told you so when a customer of mine that had been upsell'd a whole bunch of work on his F350 truck. The cam bolt cam loose leaving him dead in the water on a cold rainy night because the fuel pump eccentric wasn't pumping the fuel pump. I already had to fix the rear brake job & rear main seal that mechanic had F'ed up. Washed my hands of that customer after that late night call.

 

[MBar]

I suppose the next item on the crankshaft is the felt-like ring?
and.... Loosen the oil pan is necessary to install the timing cover so the seal will seat properly?

Because I have good access right now, is it advised (and easy) to drop the oil pan at this point to change that gasket? Looks like I would have to take apart some suspension/steering bits but will it clear that close to the cross-member? I don't want to add any more work but if it helps prevent oil leaks...if I loosen the oil pan to drop it a bit then I may break the seal...

 

[Davea Lux]

I suppose the next item on the crankshaft is the felt-like ring?
and.... Loosen the oil pan is necessary to install the timing cover so the seal will seat properly?

Because I have good access right now, is it advised (and easy) to drop the oil pan at this point to change that gasket? Looks like I would have to take apart some suspension/steering bits but will it clear that close to the cross-member? I don't want to add any more work but if it helps prevent oil leaks...if I loosen the oil pan to drop it a bit then I may break the seal...

It is a bid job to change the pan gasket, usually backing off the front third to half of the bolts will give you enough clearance to fit the timing cover, try that first if a big leak develops, you can pull the pan later.

By felt seals, are you talking about the cut to fit gaskets for the front corners of the oil pan? Cut them to fit and be sure to load up the seam between the gasket and the edge of the block with some RTV to seal any gaps.

Dave

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

Yea I'm getting a little lost between two threads here between the guy doing the valve seals and this thread. Thought you had the oil pan off, but in a previous thread of a guy doing the timing chain cover on a small block he couldn't get the cover to seat down low enough to get the timing cover bolts into thread, was saying he had gotten to standing on the cover to push it down, LOL. I remember the easiest way is to loosen all the oil pan bolts to get it to drop down just 'bout a 1/2 inch. Install the 1/2 circle rubber oil pan nose gasket, glue the 2 forward oil pans 'ears' gasket pieces that come in timing cover kit, line of silicone at lower timing corner to oil pan, install cover, torque up all the timing cover bolts then tighten up the oil pan bolts to bring up and crush the rubber nose gasket. Don't forget to smear some grease inside the crankshaft/balancer seal before you put the timing cover on. You want to do this fairly quick as you have the silicone sealant in the corners to deal with.

If your worried about the old oil pan gasket being damaged (like someone permatexed the E'ff outta it) or leaking... welp best to R&R the oil pan and install a new gasket to put your mind at ease.
You may be able to sneak new gaskets in without going through a total R&R of the pan but you still have to deal with the 1/2 rubber rear seal on the small block. Big block engines are so much easier to deal with in this department. (unless you have a windage tray) Good Luck, Rick.

 

[MBar]

By felt seals, are you talking about the cut to fit gaskets for the front corners of the oil pan?

No...I mean the round felt-like ring that goes on the crank... and it is obvious where the half-round rubber seal goes but what about the straight one?

Now I am realizing I didn't take enough photos of the brackets for everything and of course the bolts too so .... is there any kind of blow-up diagram of the accessories and brackets? and timing cover bolts? I feel dumb about it and next time I am gonna break out the baggies and marker.
So I am putting everything together in mockup without gaskets or tightening and it is going to take a lot more time.. learning the hard way uuuuugh...

 

[Davea Lux]

The felt ring goes inside of the concave part of the oil slinger. Some models had them some did not. Yours looks like it did not use the felt gasket so leave it out. The straight rubber seal with the tabs is for a different style oil pan not used on your car, use the seal with the curve. It will only fit one way, pull the tabs thru the holes in the pan to lock the seal in place. These kits usually contain some extra parts to fit multiple applications.

Dave

 

[70NEWYORKER]

The rubber strips I have marked with the colored arrows are for the front of the oil pan. They fit the curved area that is under the front of the timing cover. If the front part of your pan has holes for the retainers on the part with the pink arrow use it. If the pan is smooth use the red arrow part. Put sealant on top and bottom of rubber strip.

 

[MBar]

The felt ring goes inside of the concave part of the oil slinger. Some models had them some did not. Yours looks like it did not use the felt gasket so leave it out. The straight rubber seal with the tabs is for a different style oil pan not used on your car, use the seal with the curve. It will only fit one way, pull the tabs thru the holes in the pan to lock the seal in place. These kits usually contain some extra parts to fit multiple applications.

Dave

OK ... I think it had one but I will leave it out.
The slinger just goes in and nothing retains it? I would think it slops around in there and what keeps it from grinding or contacting the cover?

... thank you so much for quick reply... my goal of starting it this weekend gave way to a lot of cleanup around the engine and bay where I have good access right now. I am itching to get done but I really needed rest too.. there was some kind of animal nesting on the fender space next to the battery and it was stuffed with dirt, dried poop and tons of walnut shells. Took time to clean that out. Pretty much the only rust on this car is in there where the crap retained moisture and I have some surface rust. At least it's inside the fender.

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

The slinger just goes in and nothing retains it? I would think it slops around in there and what keeps it from grinding or contacting the cover?

When you tighten down the crankshaft bolt for the harmonic balancer it will sandwich the slinger tight to the lower timing sprocket. Find out who's feeding the varmint the walnuts!

 

[MBar]

Put sealant on top and bottom of rubber strip.

Thank You....I was probably going to ask that next!

 

[MBar]

When you tighten down the crankshaft bolt for the harmonic balancer it will sandwich the slinger tight to the lower timing sprocket. Find out who's feeding the varmint the walnuts!

aaaahhhh...ok that makes sense... and I looked over the old parts and there was a felt ring on .... Dave says leave it out so.....

The varmints at least are gone... I was just happy there wasn't a dead one in there...

Thanks for the help!

 

[Davea Lux]

aaaahhhh...ok that makes sense... and I looked over the old parts and there was a felt ring on .... Dave says leave it out so.....

The varmints at least are gone... I was just happy there wasn't a dead one in there...

Thanks for the help!

If it had the felt ring, put one back in.

Dave

 

[MBar]

It is a bid job to change the pan gasket, usually backing off the front third to half of the bolts will give you enough clearance to fit the timing cover, try that first if a big leak develops, you can pull the pan later.

By felt seals, are you talking about the cut to fit gaskets for the front corners of the oil pan? Cut them to fit and be sure to load up the seam between the gasket and the edge of the block with some RTV to seal any gaps.

Dave

It's been a few days and I've got time to mess with it. I mocked everything up and have the bolts and brackets figured out...disassembled and tagged everything. Tried a dry run on that oil pan rubber seal... omg..I gave it a few tries and it kept dislodging and I can imagine if I were trying it with the rtv...
So... I've gotta back off the oil pan bolts...you said the front third of the bolts..is that without loosening the others? It seems to me the pan wouldn't flex down unless I pry it... others have suggested loosening all the bolts im just dreading provoking a leak..
Jst

Yea I'm getting a little lost between two threads here between the guy doing the valve seals and this thread. Thought you had the oil pan off, but in a previous thread of a guy doing the timing chain cover on a small block he couldn't get the cover to seat down low enough to get the timing cover bolts into thread, was saying he had gotten to standing on the cover to push it down, LOL. I remember the easiest way is to loosen all the oil pan bolts to get it to drop down just 'bout a 1/2 inch. Install the 1/2 circle rubber oil pan nose gasket, glue the 2 forward oil pans 'ears' gasket pieces that come in timing cover kit, line of silicone at lower timing corner to oil pan, install cover, torque up all the timing cover bolts then tighten up the oil pan bolts to bring up and crush the rubber nose gasket. Don't forget to smear some grease inside the crankshaft/balancer seal before you put the timing cover on. You want to do this fairly quick as you have the silicone sealant in the corners to deal with.

If your worried about the old oil pan gasket being damaged (like someone permatexed the E'ff outta it) or leaking... welp best to R&R the oil pan and install a new gasket to put your mind at ease.
You may be able to sneak new gaskets in without going through a total R&R of the pan but you still have to deal with the 1/2 rubber rear seal on the small block. Big block engines are so much easier to deal with in this department. (unless you have a windage tray) Good Luck, Rick.

So i loosened all the oil pan bolts to where each has at least 1/4 inch space free....and I pushed on the oil pan but it wouldn't budge.. I pried it with a screwdriver and it appears to move but bounces right back..I'm afraid if I pry too hard I'll bend the oil pan...Uuuuugh!... I've given up for the day... I tried a bunch of times to dry run the timing cover put it always pushes the rubber seal intoward the oil pan every time...I compared the replacement cover to the old one and theyre identical ...but I noticed the old rubber seal was practically glued to the cover..... should I be gluing the rubber seal to the oil pan and with what exactly?
Having one of those frustrated quieter momemts.....I have no good spot to pry the oil pan and I don't want to have to R&R that puppy...

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

Take all the oil pan bolts out except for the 4 rear ones (2 each side) and back them out 3 or 4 turns. If the oil pan doesn't drop right down in the front give it a tap or two in the front or a little pry.
If it still won't budge, someone may have permatex (glued) both sides of the gasket and getting the oil pan to drop down may ruin the gasket so you maybe SOL.

 

[Davea Lux]

Sometimes, if the timing cover has been off before, as noted above, sealant can make the job a lot harder. Time to do as 68PK21 has suggested and back off on more bolts, once the pan has been broken loose, you should be able to get the cover installed. If you have a couple of stout Plilips screw drivers, put one thru a mid line hole in either side of the cover and the corresponding hole in the block. Usually this will put enoungh downward pressure on the cover to seat the rubber seal. If that fails, you will probably have to pull the pan.

Dave

 

[rags]

the screw driver lever trick! forgot all about that. that was where to begin actually.