In need of some info/advice on a mild performance 440 built

[Tony Mopar]

Hoping to get some info/advice from you about my 440 built, as I can't see the forest anymore because of all those trees..(Dutch saying Meaning: There is so much to buy and so much info out there, I kinda lost track on what to do.

I recently purchase a 1975, steel crank low compression 440, which is fully rebuilt with .030 over stock pistons, cam and 975 heads. It now has the Edelbrock Performer 440 Intake and a Edelbrock 650 Carb on it. Its brand new and has never ran since the rebuilt.

I want to swap the engine with my 360LA that sits currently in my 1972 Fury. I drive alot with the Fury so I want this built to be reliable in the first place but with enough power to do some wild burnouts with it, as well as a lopey cam sound.

So I came up with this plan:

Install a Hughes Whiplash flat tappet hydraulic cam which is designed for stock low compression engines for that lopey cam sound.
Link: http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=search&search=whiplash+440&partid=30173

Buy new lifters, springs and im ready to go. No vacuüm issues and performs perfect with the stock TC.

Does only this cam, in combination with the performer intake and 650 carb will be enough for some reliable city street power?

Or do I need a 750 Carb, Headers or even more exotic stuff like alu heads, roller cam, ect?

Some guy told me that i need to have the 440 Source Stealth Heads, the aluminium 1.5 ratio rockers, roller lifters and a roller cam aswell to make some power but that will set me back a couple of grand for sure.

What do you recommend?

 

[65sporty]

What's in the engine for a cam now? I listened to the cam on the Hughes site, it sounds good. From what they say it should work great with your current setup.
I think the 650 will be enough carb

 

[Tony Mopar]

Thank you for your answer! The current cam is this one: Sealed Power Replacement Hydraulic Camshafts CS327
Bone stock

 

[stubs300]

I recently purchase a 1975, steel crank low compression 440, which is fully rebuilt with .030 over stock pistons, cam and 975 heads. It now has the Edelbrock Performer 440 Intake and a Edelbrock 650 Carb on it. Its brand new and has never ran since the rebuilt.
Does only this cam, in combination with the performer intake and 650 carb will be enough for some reliable city street power?
Or do I need a 750 Carb, Headers or even more exotic stuff like alu heads, roller cam, ect?
Some guy told me that i need to have the 440 Source Stealth Heads, the aluminium 1.5 ratio rockers, to make some power but that will set me back a couple of grand for sure. What do you recommend?

Do you actually know what your compression ratio is right now??? Just because it started out as a low comp motor doesn't mean that it's still low comp. after a rebuild. You need to know this!!! Do you know all the components that are in there now??? The whiplash may not be the ticket for what you want if you don't know what you have to begin with, best bet is call Hughes and talk to Dave about what you want, and are lookin for. Any upgraded cam will require a larger carb, you may need a 750. You don't need new heads but the advantage of the weight and airflow over stock heads is a benefit.

Thank you for your answer! The current cam is this one: Sealed Power Replacement Hydraulic Camshafts CS327
Bone stock

That cam is more lame than what Mopar originally used, judging by it's size, I'd say you have a low comp rebuild. But you still need to know what your comp. ratio is! If your unsure of what cam to use, read my first reply in post #10 here and stay within those parameters with the above Sealed Power cam, and you will be fine. Good Luck
1966 , 383 stock cam specs

 

[Tony Mopar]

Hi Stubs and thank you for your comment. I'm not 100% sure about the compression ratio but according to the machineshop that sold me the engine, its stock low compression. I did not receive a build sheet with the sale, however, on the invoice there were some numbers behind the items they replaced, which led me straight to the Summit website. And it all was pretty stock parts, like the cam they used. So I just assume that the CR is stock. And for a 1975 440 that was 8.2:1 i believe but correct me if im wrong.

They replaced 8 pistons - cannot retreive which ones unfortunatly, it only said 0.30 over new pistons. I did retrieve the piston rings they used on the pistons tho: Hastings Premium Ductile Ring Sets 2M139030
But that still tells me nothing I guess...

The machineshop told me - after I sended them an email - what the CR was..

But its a good idea to talk to Hughes about it. Thank you for your contribution!

 

[Davea Lux]

Most of the time the '75 440 engine is going to struggle to get to an 8-1 compression ratio, not the best start for a performance build if they put stock pistons back in. From the factory it would probably have had steel shim gaskets. Most of the replacement gaskets sold today are the thicker sandwich style gasket which further drops the comp ratio another 1/2 point or so. You can gain some performance by advancing the cam timing and going to a 750cfm carb, you would also want to block off the EGR valve if the car is so equipped. A big cam is not going to be as effective at a lower comp ratio because the fuel air mixture is not being squeezed enough to get maximum power out of it and the combustion burn is much less efficient. Low comp ratios were designed to be clean with a slow burn at the expense of power from a fast burn.

Before proceeding further, you need to think seriously about what you intend to do with the engine, if it is going into a C-Body that now has a small block 360, you are going to also need to upgrade the transmission and probably the torque convertor to get to a higher stall speed. Most of the '75 era cars also have high gear ratios which are not suitable for high performance purposes. All things to think about. Good performance builds look at the car as a whole to get maximum advantage out of the money spent.

If you plan to run the engine as is with the log manifolds, they are restrictive and further limit performance, you can some additional performance by going to dual exhaust as the stock exhaust from the 360 will not fit a 440. The radiator and all of the accessory mounts are also different.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

 

[twostick]

Published CR might be 8.2 but real world, chambers cc'd, how far down in the hole the piston is etc, will measure out at 7.8 +/-. If the new piston has a compression height that puts the piston at or close to the top of the bore, then your CR will actually be closer to advertised possibly over.

It will depend on if the builder just plugged in stock 1975 replacement spec pistons or say stock 1969 Magnum spec pistons.

Kevin

 

[Tony Mopar]

Thank you Dave for your extensive answer!

I do have a total rebuilt and upgraded 727B with the engine and also have the yoke to make a custom/other driveshaft. Im also aware that I probably need a higher stall TC but the engine has my priority now. The Fury has the big radiator already, I have the 440 source brackets and the only thing left that I need to put the engine in the Fury is the 187 oilpan.

So in theory, the engine is almost ready to go in

As the engine is still on the bench, now is the time to do any upgrades, hence this post.
About that EGR valve: were is that situated? I wonder if I have that on this block. You think that a 750 Carb will work better with a Whiplash cam? And yes, I will probably need headers too. Was already looking into this.

But that CR is very important as you and also Kevin stated - thanx Kevin for your reply - but I do not want to change the pistons. They are new now and when I begin with new pistons, the bill goes higher and higher

Lets recap:
Keeping the CR as is. Put in a Whiplash cam, 440 Performer manifold, headers and a 750 Carb. Will it do the trick?

 

[Davea Lux]

Thank you Dave for your extensive answer!

I do have a total rebuilt and upgraded 727B with the engine and also have the yoke to make a custom/other driveshaft. Im also aware that I probably need a higher stall TC but the engine has my priority now. The Fury has the big radiator already, I have the 440 source brackets and the only thing left that I need to put the engine in the Fury is the 187 oilpan.

So in theory, the engine is almost ready to go in

As the engine is still on the bench, now is the time to do any upgrades, hence this post.
About that EGR valve: were is that situated? I wonder if I have that on this block. You think that a 750 Carb will work better with a Whiplash cam? And yes, I will probably need headers too. Was already looking into this.

But that CR is very important as you and also Kevin stated - thanx Kevin for your reply - but I do not want to change the pistons. They are new now and when I begin with new pistons, the bill goes higher and higher

Lets recap:
Keeping the CR as is. Put in a Whiplash cam, 440 Performer manifold, headers and a 750 Carb. Will it do the trick?

750cfm carb should be more than adequate. Might want to check the lower radiator hose bib on the current radiator, some of the small block 26" units had the hose mount on the opposite side from the 440.

Dave

 

[stubs300]

Lets recap:
Keeping the CR as is. Put in a Whiplash cam, 440 Performer manifold, headers and a 750 Carb. Will it do the trick?

Given with what you've said and what I know, I'd say yes. Your biggest hurdle that you don't know is the comp. ratio? You could always throw on a super thick set of head gaskets if you need even lower compression. Good Luck
"Our Whiplash cam is designed for basically stock, low compression engines. This cam will run on pump gas in a 440 with 8.25:1 or less compression and iron heads. If your compression is higher than this you may need to use a higher octane race fuel. Your vacuum should be in the 9"-11" range using this cam.
(Figures calculated using stock stroke & compression at 750' altitude.)" Hughes Engines

 

[Tony Mopar]

Thanx for pointing that out Dave: On my current radiator, the lower hose is on the pass side. On my 440, the waterpump also has it on the pass side. So I got that covered!

 

[Tony Mopar]

Thank you Stubs for sharing you knowledge! Good point about the thick gaskets!

But isnt there an easy way to measure the CR somehow?

 

[Tony Mopar]

Had some feedback from the machineshop regarding the pistons. They used these:

Silv-O-Lite Cast Pistons 1276-030

 

[has2bmopar]

Had some feedback from the machineshop regarding the pistons. They used these:

Silv-O-Lite Cast Pistons 1276-030

If it was mine, I'd buy a different set of pistons to get around 9.7:1 with .039" gaskets and your current heads which are likely 346s about 90cc open chambers.

If it has been rebuilt and not run you can reuse your rings, but I would keep them in each designated cylinder if they were file fit rings.

440 deck height 10.72"
rod length 6.768"
1/2 stroke 1.875"
piston comp height 1.912"
deck height .165"
valve relief CCs 0

Compression ratio .030"/4.35" with .039" gasket - 90cc chambers 7.54:1 (No cam can keep this from being a dog.)
----------------------------------------.020" gasket - 80cc chambers 8.3:1

 

[has2bmopar]

SRP Chrysler 400/440 Wedge Flat Top Pistons 213455

SRP-213455 + .030"/4.35' bore.
They have 1/16th in. compression ring grooves, so you will likely need rings.

Comp height 2.062"/ deck height .015"
Valve reliefs 6cc

compression ratio with .039" gasket - 90cc chambers 9.37:1
------------------------- .020" gasket - 90cc chambers 9.74:1

If you have some overlap in your cam the 9.74 would be fine. With the 9.37 it will be fine with about any cam.

I would recommend something in the 223ish range on your intake duration @.050" valve lift with a 3.23 axle ratio.

 

[Tony Mopar]

Thank you Has2b for your advice!

However, when getting the CR above 8.5, the Hughes cam does require other higher octane race fuel. When Im changing pistons, alot more work and money is involved. And I do not have the budget for that unfortunatly. My heads are 975's btw.

 

[volksworld]

i just pulled my 440 apart and have those same silvolite pistons...in .040 over....my heads cc'd to 87, i have .175 deck and an .039 felpro gasket with a 4.5 hole....which all works out to a thrilling 7.55 to 1....heads are currently at machine shop and i'll see what they cc out to before i buy anything else....but i'm leaning towards Icons(IC836ktd) with a 2.067 height and a 12cc dish to get 9 to 1...iirc these have the smaller wrist pin so gotta change rods too...so nothings simple or cheap....got factory air and dont want a cam with a lot of overlap so trying to be overly cautious on CR

 

[has2bmopar]

Be aware the aftermarket rods do not oil the opposite wrist pins through the rod at the cap joint like the original rods. The one bearing half may need a small notch filed it to oil in the original rods as well. The aftermarket will be narrower and rely on splash to oil the wrist pins. They are also 6.760" vs the original 6.768", so it will increase your deck height and lower your compression slightly.

If you change the reciprocating weight much, (.990" vs 1.094" pins, lighter rods/pistons) I would recommend balancing the assembly. Myself; I would stay with the original rods and flat tops with higher compression height that will put you to 9.4-9.7:1 depending on gasket thickness and actual chamber ccs. Not sure when 440s changed to cast rods, but the older LY rods were 4340 steel and good to about 600hp with good bolts.

Not sure who at Hughes said that race fuel was necessary with compression ratios higher than 8.5:1, but I greatly disagree. I have 10.4:1 in my '70 Road Runner and I could run 91-92 octane and have the timing at 36-38 degrees full advance with no detonation issues. It does have 76 degrees of overlap though, which helps.

 

[Tony Mopar]

I was talking about a specific cam: the Hughes Whiplash cam.

Its on their website:

Our Whiplash cam is designed for basically stock, low compression engines. This cam will run on pump gas in a 440 with 8.25:1 or less compression and iron heads. If your compression is higher than this you may need to use a higher octane race fuel. Your vacuum should be in the 9"-11" range using this cam.
(Figures calculated using stock stroke & compression at 750' altitude.)

Source: Hughes Engines