stubs300
Senior Member
I'm curious as to how you magnified those pics?
Old 413 Camshaft Selection
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moper
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Dynamic calculators are fun but only for sake of comparison between profiles. Don’t rely on it as gospel.
jct
Senior Member
Macro lens on his DSLR
That looks like normal wear to me.
When a cam "goes flat" or "knocks a lobe off" this it what happens to the lifter. They will be concave, and the lobe on the cam will be ground down visually and to the touch.
When a cam "goes flat" or "knocks a lobe off" this it what happens to the lifter. They will be concave, and the lobe on the cam will be ground down visually and to the touch.
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moper
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Going by the picture- the lifter face is rusting and pitted. That is not normal wear or a normal break in pattern.
I should have been more specific, it appears to be normal wear for the age of the engine. That picture is greatly digitally magnified which adds digital noise artifacts to the picture
Chryslertoo
New Member
The pictures were taken using the digital zoom on my cell phone, but there are no digital artifacts. What you see is exactly what I see with a regular 10x optical magnifier. The engine does not have much mileage on it from the rebuild. Perhaps less than 700 miles. To figure dynamic compression radio, I cc'ed the heads several times to be sure I was getting consistant results. The published volume for the 516 head is 73.5 cc. Mine measure out to be : 79.5, 79.5, 80, 77.5, 78.5, 78, 76, 80. I estimate a probable error of (SWAG) of 0.2cc.
no such thing as digital zoom without digital artifacts. Anyway, The cam and lifters don't look perfect, but they do not appear to be horrible. i would not reuse them myself. i converted to hydraulic roller cams years ago, and although they have their own issues, and costs, you will not likely round off a lobe or ruin a lifter.
Chryslertoo
New Member
Lets say no discernible artifacts as the cam looks identical when I view it with a 10x optical loop. As I plan to use the car as a trip and tour vehicle, I plan on changing the system out, hence, the start of this thread asking advice on cam selection. Now with the heads cc'ed and using a shim gasket I come up with a CR of 9.12:1. Using the proper oils and additives the flat tappets can last a long time. The rollers I've checked out seem a bit more radical than I need.
Remember that today's standard oils do not play well with flat tappet cams. Use a 15-40 oil that is diesel service rated, Shell Rotella, Valvoline All Fleet or Chevron Delo oils still have the phosphorus additive package for flat tappet camshafts, most of the rest do not. You can also add the Lucas oil anti friction phosphorus additive, among others, but that stuff tends to settle to the bottom of the oil pan on engines that are not run often. Phosphorus was removed from modern oils because it was not needed with roller cams and was found to poison catalytic convertors if the engine used any oil.
Dave
Chryslertoo
New Member
The Rotella 15-40 is good stuff. I've used it for 22 years in my '98 2500 diesel. It also has an API rating for gas engines as well as diesel. Not sure about the others, though now I ad ZDDP as the amount has also been reduced in it, also. Not as much as in straight gasoline motor oil, however. The last good API rated oil was CI-4 Plus. Diesels went to roller cams, too.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Diesels have been rollerized since the 50s, but when your shooting for a 1,000,000 miles, ZDDP helps. The ZDDP is reduced in modern diesels because of the DPF. Buy the old oil for a old NTC Cummins.
Chryslertoo
New Member
Chryslertoo
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Not sure about a Cummins NTC, but when Cummins and JI Case got together to design the Mid-duty 12 valve motor they designed it with flat solid lifters. Mushroom style I think. Chrysler shopped around for a diesel engine for the RAM line found this and history was made. Last time I checked the Rotella CI-4, CI-4+ was available only in 55 gal drums. Did that once, would not suit now. Finally broke it in with only 148,000 miles on it.
moper
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I don’t care what camera took it. It’s not normal wear. It’s rusty... lol
300George
New Member
I had a 300 K (413 360 hp) and did the GTX 440/375 cam and really loved it! Bit of a lope but very drivable.
1967 fury 3 360
New Member
so i have a question a little off topic I guess. I have a 413 rb engine that I was thinking to rebuild mildly, currently has not been touched and sitting on an engine stand for at least 10 years. Or just rebuild my 360 that is in my 67 fury iii that is al stock. Which would be more fun to drive around.
stubs300
Senior Member
Find a 440 and redo it, 413 rebuild parts are hard to find & more expensive. Good Luck
fury fan
Senior Member
The main parts that differ are the heads and pistons.
But - it seems that ~9:1 pistons for 413s are available now/again ($600), so 413s might be worth rebuilding again.
With people wanting $1000+ for a needs-rebuilt motorhome 440, if someone has a 413 they should investigate using it?
If one shops around, '440' iron heads (with the bigger valves) needing work should be available for $150 or so.
The old adage of 'scrap the 413 and get a 440' may need updated.
The 413 was always a respectable motor. With a modern-era cam rather than the ones it usually came with back then, better-flowing heads (as to ports rather than valve sizes), and better intakes, The "got to be step-child" RB motor can build credible power. Not unlike a 327 compared to a 350 SBC, or a 305 to 350 SBC. As good as it might have been, it just got lost in the "bigger is better" shuffle, to me.
Although it "hit ground" with the 1958 models, it was not a really "performance" engine until the earlier 1960s, using the original 252/252/.390" cam that was in the B-350 2x4bbl Plymouth V-8 of 1958. Basically same cam specs last used in the '66 383 2bbl engines.
The 413 did gain fame as a formidable and winning drag race motor, winning several drag racing classes in the 1963 era, so there is performance potential there. Remember Jan and Dean's "Shutdown"? Of course, the then-new aluminum-case TorqueFlites of that time helped, too, when 4-speed manual transmissions were allegedly "king".
After the arrival of the 440, the 413s were relegated to stationary industrial engine use and in the failed attempt of Dodge in their foray into the medium-duty truck world. Still, the vast majority of improvements of the 440 can be transferred to the 413. Although the 413 did pave the way for the 440 into the motorhome engine market.
I know that people tend to be fixated on "big numbers". Salary, benefits, cubic inches, stroke length, cyl head port flow, published power figures, and the related cubic inch displacement. In the end, though, for a street car not in competitive drag racing, losing 40 or so horsepower at 5500rpm is not a really big deal, except in "bragging rights". BUT IF YOU SAY IT RIGHT . . . "I went with a 4 1 3," for those who know, they'll understand. Especially as the "price of admission" can be significantly less, although some of the pieces might end up being more expensive.
As with a B/RB engine, start with light-weight pistons, followed by knife-edging the "front" (rotational) sides of the crank counterweights. Then top the short block with some modern aluminum heads (TrickFlows or similar, even the Brodix B-1 head), with the 4bbl intake of choice (even cast iron for cosmetics), a modern carb or current EFI, THEN if you want to readily admit it is the "older-brother" of the 440, that's up to you. Nobody HAS to know your secret! EVEN if they might notice the end of the normal engine color-painted aluminum heads!
SO . . . if you can find a 413 block at a "lump of cast iron" good price, get it cleaned, line honed, decked, and "deck plate" bored/honed for the pistons you can find. Just use your poker face to hide your glee at the lower-than-440 price. Then build it!
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
Although it "hit ground" with the 1958 models, it was not a really "performance" engine until the earlier 1960s, using the original 252/252/.390" cam that was in the B-350 2x4bbl Plymouth V-8 of 1958. Basically same cam specs last used in the '66 383 2bbl engines.
The 413 did gain fame as a formidable and winning drag race motor, winning several drag racing classes in the 1963 era, so there is performance potential there. Remember Jan and Dean's "Shutdown"? Of course, the then-new aluminum-case TorqueFlites of that time helped, too, when 4-speed manual transmissions were allegedly "king".
After the arrival of the 440, the 413s were relegated to stationary industrial engine use and in the failed attempt of Dodge in their foray into the medium-duty truck world. Still, the vast majority of improvements of the 440 can be transferred to the 413. Although the 413 did pave the way for the 440 into the motorhome engine market.
I know that people tend to be fixated on "big numbers". Salary, benefits, cubic inches, stroke length, cyl head port flow, published power figures, and the related cubic inch displacement. In the end, though, for a street car not in competitive drag racing, losing 40 or so horsepower at 5500rpm is not a really big deal, except in "bragging rights". BUT IF YOU SAY IT RIGHT . . . "I went with a 4 1 3," for those who know, they'll understand. Especially as the "price of admission" can be significantly less, although some of the pieces might end up being more expensive.
As with a B/RB engine, start with light-weight pistons, followed by knife-edging the "front" (rotational) sides of the crank counterweights. Then top the short block with some modern aluminum heads (TrickFlows or similar, even the Brodix B-1 head), with the 4bbl intake of choice (even cast iron for cosmetics), a modern carb or current EFI, THEN if you want to readily admit it is the "older-brother" of the 440, that's up to you. Nobody HAS to know your secret! EVEN if they might notice the end of the normal engine color-painted aluminum heads!
SO . . . if you can find a 413 block at a "lump of cast iron" good price, get it cleaned, line honed, decked, and "deck plate" bored/honed for the pistons you can find. Just use your poker face to hide your glee at the lower-than-440 price. Then build it!
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
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