apparently ALL your braincells are still workin' -- more than I can say for myself at times :icon_smile:
http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/how...-legends-mid-70s-tour-bus/Content?oid=2191351
Waylon's 1973 Silver Eagle
Scenicruisin'..?
- Thread starter amazinblue82
- Start date
apparently ALL your braincells are still workin' -- more than I can say for myself at times :icon_smile:
http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/how...-legends-mid-70s-tour-bus/Content?oid=2191351
Waylon's 1973 Silver Eagle
interesting thought.
underlying that thought, i think you hit the nail on the head man...the Achilles Heel of the vintage coaches. what if you break something, or just wear out stuff from old age?" now you need "unobtainium" -- the catch-all category for impossible to find parts nowadays, or that will require expensive fabrication to get you up and running.
Newer stuff, modern technologies, parts availability, etc, of current production coaches would take some of the hidden risks out of owning a vintage coach. And Scenicruisers HAD issues no doubt.
Apparently the trick is finding a Scenicruiser, like anything else we come across in our car "hobby", with documentation on its history. How long did it stay in service?, who had it after Greyhound retired it (with maintenance records from Greyhound?), were side-reinforcement plates done?, what parts are not original but have functioning replacements?, etc..
By the time they were all retired in the 1970's Greyhound fixed everything and by all accounts they were as reliable as their inherent design allowed and were well-maintained.
So the people with 'em today love 'em and swear by their reliability. But I haven't yet been able to speak to enough people who threw in the towel and sold them OR gave up on their projects as we have seen with examples for sale in this thread..and "why".
But "damn the torpedoes" I'm plowin' ahead anyway and see what happens. :icon_smile:
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Seriously, if I really, really, had the money for a new Provost, then I would absolutely spend the money on chopping off that Star Wars nose. I really, really would.
Really.. : D
Really.. : D
i may be way off here, but i think that that may because you KNOW how to do stuff..personally.
I recall a cool-a** four-speed formal, probably other stuff imagined and made real with your impetus as discussed in this Forum?
Me?...I can't do nearly what I can imagine and then it ALL comes down to $$$ I have to pay others, which curbs my enthusiasm for certain undertakings :icon_smile:
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Tell me it can't be done...
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Why are all the Detroit's so popular in buses. I guess low power to not tear up the automatics or a 4 speed.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Why DDs?
Don't forget GM was the bull in the China Shop for busses during that era.
Don't forget GM was the bull in the China Shop for busses during that era.
This is the time of year I always look around at buses. Found this. the ShamRock Away!
A homemade rig (looks like Michigan plate circa 1976-77), made from three 1962 Buick Wagons, single Nailhead 401-V8, almost 10.000 lbs, drive wheels third set from front, saved from a salvage yard and now for sale again, and last a drawing for somebody's vision for it (which I kinda like - kinda).
I am not considering it..just though it was interesting. I admire the creativity, but i dunno ....
A homemade rig (looks like Michigan plate circa 1976-77), made from three 1962 Buick Wagons, single Nailhead 401-V8, almost 10.000 lbs, drive wheels third set from front, saved from a salvage yard and now for sale again, and last a drawing for somebody's vision for it (which I kinda like - kinda).
I am not considering it..just though it was interesting. I admire the creativity, but i dunno ....
300rag
It's Not Going to Shift Itself
Definitely creative use of the wagons, and then we have a Foose-ified version.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Should have quit at the concept stage.
I like the creativity and admire the fact that the builder had the tenacity to see it through... It is very hard to do a project of this size as a single person, I had help on days that I just couldn't do things by myself.
I just saw this today... damnit, I was shooting for a quick in and out this morning... but I had to read the whole thread. I absolutely love old buses. The concept of a custom built motorhome has a huge appeal to me. Long ago I put several years of sporadic research into this and came up with what I believed was the right plan for me (at that time).
PD4501's (Scenicruiser's) are sexy as hell, but have a number of pitfalls. None of the classic buses have much headroom (I'm 6'4"). Do not even consider a "raised roof" Scenicruiser, the structural design of these and Flxible VL100 doesn't lend itself to alterations. I have also heard that old Scenicruiser's tend to get stress cracks around the rear wheel areas... the "skin" of these buses is structural, so any cracking is a sign that she isn't really sound anymore and at minimum needs taken apart and inspected and put back together with NEW metal. As the aviation guys about metal fatigue, airplane wings are replaced after a certain amount of flight hours and all critical structures have an inspection schedule... a 1950's airframe with a lot of "miles" (hours) would have had lots of structure replaced (including skin). Greyhound used those buses up during their years in service, even though they were well maintained and pretty much de-bugged by the time they were sold off... they were road hard and many seemed to have early fatigue signs. Also watch out for floor reconfigurations, the plywood floor is also a structural member. Many conversions try to change interior height by moving the floor down. The plywood from the original build would be dry/rotten if still in place... the attempt to "upgrade" to marine grade plywood most likely would result in corrosion problems. AFAIAC the "treated" wood is not metal friendly especially the newer stuff.
Mechanical stuff is all basic hot rodding... If you have the cash, someone will make it work (sort of). One nice feature of old buses is the driveline was usually built onto a "cradle" so that the bus company could reasonably pull the entire assembly out for major repairs. Even 40's buses usually had that feature, but modifications since new may have changed if it still works correctly (welds where bolts used to be). If you have the budget ($250k is a real nice place to start from), The question comes down to buy or build. Both ways are most likely going to involve mechanical and interior work at some point. I personally am a fan of electrical vs. propane fixtures... both age and require servicing, I am far more comfortable with maintaining 1 generator or "shore power" connection than tracing propane plumbing for leaks and checking flow at the burners. That is just a preference and both ways have been done forever. True "off grider's" like propane for obvious reasons. BTW most DD's from GM use a transmission arrangement called V-Drive And are cammed to turn CCW (counter clock wise). That basically limits those buses from being repowered by anything that doesn't have a marine application (in a boat, engines counter rotate so the torque doesn't make you do circles). IIRC the PD4501 wasn't V-Drive equipped... so GM bus parts from other models wont work, but should give lots of transmission options... I still think GM DD's turned backward on these, but not sure. VL100 turned clockwise, and used a gearbox to turn that power to forward motion (remember the engine sits backward)... and that additional gearbox is another weak point in the Flxible design... Haven't heard much about cracking, but they built less and dont seem quite as popular (I like the VL100 better than the PD4501, but who cares... I'm not buying). There were some VL100's that started life as motorhomes... they would be a prize find and likely better shape than an old highway bus.
cantflip ya gotta a lotta knowledge. thanks!
if you had to narrow your choice to one old coach to convert/buy done which would you pick?
OR, just get into a "still in production" coach 1990 or newer?
if you had to narrow your choice to one old coach to convert/buy done which would you pick?
OR, just get into a "still in production" coach 1990 or newer?
I love the old Flxible and GM buses from the late 30's through the 50's... nothing looks as good as an old Flxible rearend. Guess that makes me an "*** man". I seriously, seriously looked at buying one... but I wanted ceiling height and the ability to stand on the roof (infield camper). I just couldn't see destroying the look I loved so much. There was one I almost went for, but I just couldn't get the details figured out to extract it from where it was parked and transport it back here (500+/- miles), It was an old custom coach conversion and mostly intact appearing.
I also seriously considered a Futurliner, really loved the idea of something so rare... but again couldn't see myself cutting up to make my RV. The one I was considering is I believe the same one that was redone on the show 'Bitchin rides". Back then I think the asking price was in the $20k's... a couple years later when the restored one sold for $3M at BJ, I knew I would never get another chance at one.
As a finished classic motorhome... the best value in my opinion is the old Wanderlodge... Depending on budget and desires... there were a lot of different models made over time from older, small gasoline powered to 40 Foot wide bodies. They were quality built and amazing for their time when new... And can be had for a fair price today. Like everything else old, you will pay for condition... and it will be cheaper to buy finished than to do it yourself.
After all of my research and decision making process... I decide the most important things for me and my intended use. I planned for mostly going to the race tracks, being able to sit up top to watch. I wanted a spartan simple interior that would be easy to clean and maintain. I decided gas powered would better suit my use, long storage periods and easy to find parts when road trip breakdowns occur. Really didn't expect to do any mountainous driving. Except for city buses, which have no space underneath, none of the buses I liked were tall enough inside. Also if I ever went to an expensive infield... I didn't want some ******* with a prevost blocking my roof top view because of height difference.
I found an 1985 Bluebird All American school bus. Similar front to the Wanderlodge, just inches shy of 40 ft (39+) and factory powered by a 427 GM truck engine(stroker, not vette)and Allison 4 spd.
I bought that bus in 2006. First order of business, getting the title work done... yes this was another of my tragic tales with FL DMV... But, It got transferred from GA to my name AND titled as an RV. RV branding was critical, it has air brakes and 34k gvwr... would need a CDL to drive it otherwise. The bus was built in GA and never went farther north... so very little rust, plus with galvanized steel construction... easy to work with. Aluminum school buses like Crown's would have taken me to more expensive materials and equipment to convert. The All American model was one of the most solidly built school buses ever. When ever I see a new school bus drive by, I look at the placement of the rivets. The Thomas buses I see have rivets indicating a full rib every other window... mine has a full loop every window (little less than 24" spacing).
Brought the bus home to the place I stored/built her. First order of business was removal of all interior sheet metal, side windows and seats. That was a ridiculous amount of work. Then I removed Exterior rivets at the windows and the lower roof. I biult a frame from 2x4s and used 6 screw jacks to cut/raise the roof almost 18". At each rib a 1" heavy wall length of square tubing was dropped in from floor to the start of the roof curve... I actually had to use big load biding straps to pull the roof down to set level. The tubing was shimed with flat stck and drilled/ bolted to the original hat channel that made up the roof. frames were made from sqaure tubing welded to angle iron for the RV windows that required the hat channel be cut. All of the interior hat channel (original) was backed up by an external hat channel (stop sign post) for the mounting of the roof decking. A roof hatch was fabricated so the access is from inside instead of a ladder allowing any drunken idiot to climb aboard, a little in field experience there. A 2" square tube was welded closed and bolted to the roof ribs from below... it runs the center of the roof most of the length of the bus so the decking has an attachment point, but also will never sag to the roof sheeting. The interior was insulated with foam and sheeted in bead board plywood.
Unfortunately, I stalled on this project several years ago. The amount of work I can put in during a day since my 2008 car accidents (rear ended twice, 5 disks in my lower back and neck damaged) and the never ending house remodeling/repairing took over. I lost my storage that allowed me to work on the bus at will (rest rooms, electrical... cutting, grinding, welding wasn't an issue... even had 220v), so now I would have to make a plan to move the bus to a location for work and back to storage at the end of the day. I could rent an indoor bay with electric (110v) and A/C... but it was a bit out of budget.
She still exists, I should be invading Highlands county with the unwashed masses this week with her... but life has given other priorities. Two of my friends who helped with the build have since drank themselves to death, my back injuries don't allow me to drink much anymore without paying a big price in pain for days afterward. The wife figured out that she doesn't really like camping, or the race track drunks, so she is out. I get a little excited about getting to a place where I could spend some time and energy and $ to finish her... but I don't see me getting the use I had hoped to out of her. The tires were old in 2006... 22.5" are not cheap enough to throw on a set for one trip a year... she has been to highlands county several times in the past.
Pics are from a few months ago when I started thinking if I should sell her, she is registered for another year and all told costs me $1200-$1500 per year in storage, insurance and tags. I won't recover my investment, so its mostly about reducing that expense.
I also seriously considered a Futurliner, really loved the idea of something so rare... but again couldn't see myself cutting up to make my RV. The one I was considering is I believe the same one that was redone on the show 'Bitchin rides". Back then I think the asking price was in the $20k's... a couple years later when the restored one sold for $3M at BJ, I knew I would never get another chance at one.
As a finished classic motorhome... the best value in my opinion is the old Wanderlodge... Depending on budget and desires... there were a lot of different models made over time from older, small gasoline powered to 40 Foot wide bodies. They were quality built and amazing for their time when new... And can be had for a fair price today. Like everything else old, you will pay for condition... and it will be cheaper to buy finished than to do it yourself.
After all of my research and decision making process... I decide the most important things for me and my intended use. I planned for mostly going to the race tracks, being able to sit up top to watch. I wanted a spartan simple interior that would be easy to clean and maintain. I decided gas powered would better suit my use, long storage periods and easy to find parts when road trip breakdowns occur. Really didn't expect to do any mountainous driving. Except for city buses, which have no space underneath, none of the buses I liked were tall enough inside. Also if I ever went to an expensive infield... I didn't want some ******* with a prevost blocking my roof top view because of height difference.
I found an 1985 Bluebird All American school bus. Similar front to the Wanderlodge, just inches shy of 40 ft (39+) and factory powered by a 427 GM truck engine(stroker, not vette)and Allison 4 spd.
I bought that bus in 2006. First order of business, getting the title work done... yes this was another of my tragic tales with FL DMV... But, It got transferred from GA to my name AND titled as an RV. RV branding was critical, it has air brakes and 34k gvwr... would need a CDL to drive it otherwise. The bus was built in GA and never went farther north... so very little rust, plus with galvanized steel construction... easy to work with. Aluminum school buses like Crown's would have taken me to more expensive materials and equipment to convert. The All American model was one of the most solidly built school buses ever. When ever I see a new school bus drive by, I look at the placement of the rivets. The Thomas buses I see have rivets indicating a full rib every other window... mine has a full loop every window (little less than 24" spacing).
Brought the bus home to the place I stored/built her. First order of business was removal of all interior sheet metal, side windows and seats. That was a ridiculous amount of work. Then I removed Exterior rivets at the windows and the lower roof. I biult a frame from 2x4s and used 6 screw jacks to cut/raise the roof almost 18". At each rib a 1" heavy wall length of square tubing was dropped in from floor to the start of the roof curve... I actually had to use big load biding straps to pull the roof down to set level. The tubing was shimed with flat stck and drilled/ bolted to the original hat channel that made up the roof. frames were made from sqaure tubing welded to angle iron for the RV windows that required the hat channel be cut. All of the interior hat channel (original) was backed up by an external hat channel (stop sign post) for the mounting of the roof decking. A roof hatch was fabricated so the access is from inside instead of a ladder allowing any drunken idiot to climb aboard, a little in field experience there. A 2" square tube was welded closed and bolted to the roof ribs from below... it runs the center of the roof most of the length of the bus so the decking has an attachment point, but also will never sag to the roof sheeting. The interior was insulated with foam and sheeted in bead board plywood.
Unfortunately, I stalled on this project several years ago. The amount of work I can put in during a day since my 2008 car accidents (rear ended twice, 5 disks in my lower back and neck damaged) and the never ending house remodeling/repairing took over. I lost my storage that allowed me to work on the bus at will (rest rooms, electrical... cutting, grinding, welding wasn't an issue... even had 220v), so now I would have to make a plan to move the bus to a location for work and back to storage at the end of the day. I could rent an indoor bay with electric (110v) and A/C... but it was a bit out of budget.
She still exists, I should be invading Highlands county with the unwashed masses this week with her... but life has given other priorities. Two of my friends who helped with the build have since drank themselves to death, my back injuries don't allow me to drink much anymore without paying a big price in pain for days afterward. The wife figured out that she doesn't really like camping, or the race track drunks, so she is out. I get a little excited about getting to a place where I could spend some time and energy and $ to finish her... but I don't see me getting the use I had hoped to out of her. The tires were old in 2006... 22.5" are not cheap enough to throw on a set for one trip a year... she has been to highlands county several times in the past.
Pics are from a few months ago when I started thinking if I should sell her, she is registered for another year and all told costs me $1200-$1500 per year in storage, insurance and tags. I won't recover my investment, so its mostly about reducing that expense.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I did look into them quite hard before I made my purchase why back when. I hate the lousy motorhome construction and many really are overloaded before you pack all your stuff into them. The basic wall construction is paneling/styrofoam/outer sheeting all glued together into a sandwich that is strong for about as long as the DOT/RVIA minimum will allow... so at 5-10 years old, it is very common for delamination issues to occur. All are built to be pretty, none are built to come apart... so repairs really suck and require some level of cabinette making type skills or they will look like a cheap patch job.
I ripped apart my old 28ft 14k gvwr dodge chassis class A motorhome and reused the windows on the bus. I saved what little else I could for reuse... but it was mostly crap. After filling the dumpster for several days, the only steel above the floor was one 2' thinwall square tube loop behind the front seats... like a roll bar, but worse.
I would advise you to go do some tire kicking at the RV lots and try to test drive as many different ones as you can, don't focus on anything but how they drive... Then drive some used ones, you will see how bad a lightweight chassis feels when loaded by just the bodywork. My bus drove like a dream, in fact when I picked it up, I was diverted off the FL turnpike onto 27... little rolling hills and stop lights... I looked down and was actually doing 80 keeping up with traffic. But my 0 to 60 times require an egg timer... big heavy gas powered beast.
Also ask the dealers about rental programs. It is common for them to do a lot of events and such to try to lure potential customers into the "RV lifestyle". I hear the events can be quite nice and would give you a chance to see what you do and don't care about for your purchase. I have seen pics of some wonderful conversions, but its buying somebody else's hot rod... buyer beware.
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BTW there is a RV BUS ralley in Arcadia FL every year I think in December... may be another avenue for research if you start to get serious thoughts. I think its BNO who sponsors it... and they have a decent website, or at least had in the past... Bus Nuts Online...
I kinda stopped paying attention when the Flxible Owners Group sold their domain and it all went to advertising...
I kinda stopped paying attention when the Flxible Owners Group sold their domain and it all went to advertising...
Ripinator
Old Man with a Hat
Your comments are very interesting to me. I have played around with the idea of a restored as built PD4501, but have never really done anything about it. I think it would be really neat to be able to gather up ALL my good friends and take a nostalgia bus trip somewhere in a SceniCruiser.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
I'd buy a new Provost and modify it into a Senic Cruiser.
If you have the money for a new Provost in the the first place, then you got the money for the mods.
If you have the money for a new Provost in the the first place, then you got the money for the mods.
300rag
It's Not Going to Shift Itself
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Thanks for correcting me. I'd hate to have done that in a Prevost forum with a bunch of old men in hats.
But give me credit for knowing that it's Flxible Bus...
But give me credit for knowing that it's Flxible Bus...
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