Scenicruisin'..?

[amazinblue82]

NOT My Bus. And WAY too much information here. young fella did a clutch replacement on what was then his bus #858 (mine is #473).

April 9, 2012 - Scenicruiser Drive Home Prep

My tranny was still working pretty good. But Allison is going back in.

Everybody who worked on these coaches when last in service w/Greyhound are (assuming they were 25 in 1971 are in their mid-late 70's or unfortunately passed away. Whisperer is 78.

My guys (younger and willing to work overtime for me for a little less than the seasoned guys who rebuilt mine after it was out) used this series to take my engine out. They also did it outdoors, but mostly at dusk/night/ after work (like 6pm to 9pm).

First two videos only if you are motivated to see everything this young fella went through to take engine out (no other apparent way to get at clutch). Video 3 sums it all up pretty good.





Trans & Clutch Removal



The Reinstall and restart
Scenicruiser 858 - Engine Installation

 

[azblackhemi]

That reminds me of a funny story when I was working at Phoenix Transit. Day shift was working on installing a rebuilt cradle package and left for the day after putting it all back in place. Unfortunately they neglected to put in any mounting bolts before they went home. Second shift came in and needed the bay to work in so they got the fork lift and hooked a chain to the back crossmember of the cradle intending on moving the whole bus and pulled. Crash! The whole package came crashing down on the floor. Luckily didn't do any real damage other than to the floor but it was pretty funny.

 

[ayilar]

I am thrilled for you! So. . . Carlisle 2021 ?

yes Carlisle 2021 is a great goal for me.

Cool bus, exciting plan, and you could also bring along the beautiful/rare GE7 Monaco (that you just bought and will start restoring next fall) for a 50th birthday reunion with some of its sisters

 

[cantflip]

NOT My Bus. And WAY too much information here. young fella did a clutch replacement on what was then his bus #858 (mine is #473).

April 9, 2012 - Scenicruiser Drive Home Prep

My tranny was still working pretty good. But Allison is going back in.

Everybody who worked on these coaches when last in service w/Greyhound are (assuming they were 25 in 1971 are in their mid-late 70's or unfortunately passed away. Whisperer is 78.

My guys (younger and willing to work overtime for me for a little less than the seasoned guys who rebuilt mine after it was out) used this series to take my engine out. They also did it outdoors, but mostly at dusk/night/ after work (like 6pm to 9pm).

First two videos only if you are motivated to see everything this young fella went through to take engine out (no other apparent way to get at clutch). Video 3 sums it all up pretty good.





Trans & Clutch Removal



The Reinstall and restart
Scenicruiser 858 - Engine Installation

That guy is lucky he didn't find a way to prove Darwin right in the process. It is better to be lucky than good sometimes.

The idea of a removable cradle is a key to maintaining something like a bus, where the engine is so inaccessible. I'm assuming that they came out regularly when the busses were in service and the dollies were much better built than what that guy built. In their heyday, I'd bet on a few spare drivelines in major repair centers to get a rig back into service a bit quicker... maybe even already on a spare cradle.

The biggest question I've had about the 4501's has been about how they handled the retrofit cradles, were they entirely new, or did they cut/weld/modify the old cradles? I read somewhere that the cradles could be a wildcard in these, but IDK if that's due to them being out of service so long or random work during the retrofit. I can see someone using a stick welder to solve a problem and create a new nightmare for the next major service.

I'm so glad that you've got yours... but you need to buy a couple digital cameras for the restoration crew to feed us with.

 

[amazinblue82]

Cool bus, exciting plan, and you could also bring along the beautiful/rare GE7 Monaco (that you just bought and will start restoring next fall) for a 50th birthday reunion with some of its sisters

How bout that. didnt think about 50th year of monaco. more incentive.

the "ETA" for my projects is based upon simple formula. All projects have to be financed in cash, with NO "orange money" (e.g. retirement savings), be prepared to delay gratification, and with a budget (buy right, plan well, and try not to get too far upside down in a deal).

I screw project timing up 80% of the time by .... buying something else. Way less then when I was younger but still "I got da feevah" for bringing old stuff back to life.

All that to say Carlisle 2021 priority is BUS and hopefully I can drag something with me. May as well be the Monaco if we can hold timing.

 

[ayilar]

How bout that. didnt think about 50th year of monaco. more incentive. (...) Carlisle 2021 priority is BUS and hopefully I can drag something with me. May as well be the Monaco if we cant hold timing.

Well, my thinking about Medina was to let her spend a few more years with her current paint, but if there is a good chance that your GE7 will be ready for Carlisle in 2021 then my revised plan is to bring Medina too -- in which case I should get her back to the original livery in spring 2021. She'll still be a driver, mind you, but a correct driver

Meanwhile, any way I can help with the GE7 restoration, let me know. The FCBO Polara/Monaco specialists (including @saforwardlook, @polara71, @71Polara383, @fc7_plumcrazy, @Bill Watson, @kmccabe56 among others) know way more than I do, of course, but if I can help then I will.

Cheers!

 

[azblackhemi]

That guy is lucky he didn't find a way to prove Darwin right in the process. It is better to be lucky than good sometimes.

The idea of a removable cradle is a key to maintaining something like a bus, where the engine is so inaccessible. I'm assuming that they came out regularly when the busses were in service and the dollies were much better built than what that guy built. In their heyday, I'd bet on a few spare drivelines in major repair centers to get a rig back into service a bit quicker... maybe even already on a spare cradl

Whenever the city specked out a new order of buses they always included 3 or 4 spare complete spare cradle assemblies. That was usually on an order of around a hundred buses.

 

[amazinblue82]

That guy is lucky he didn't find a way to prove Darwin right in the process. It is better to be lucky than good sometimes.

The idea of a removable cradle is a key to maintaining something like a bus, where the engine is so inaccessible. I'm assuming that they came out regularly when the busses were in service and the dollies were much better built than what that guy built. In their heyday, I'd bet on a few spare drivelines in major repair centers to get a rig back into service a bit quicker... maybe even already on a spare cradle.

The biggest question I've had about the 4501's has been about how they handled the retrofit cradles, were they entirely new, or did they cut/weld/modify the old cradles? I read somewhere that the cradles could be a wildcard in these, but IDK if that's due to them being out of service so long or random work during the retrofit. I can see someone using a stick welder to solve a problem and create a new nightmare for the next major service.

I'm so glad that you've got yours... but you need to buy a couple digital cameras for the restoration crew to feed us with.

hey chief.. thanks for weighing in.

Last thing first. Yes, apologies for shoddy documentation. I have wrote before, I am hundreds of miles away from where my work gets done since I moved from WNY.

Since I am unskilled for about any project I have, I'm blessed with guys who are willing to work on old stuff .. i am "cursed' because they just work and can't be bothered (I say that with respect) with narrating a video, or taking pictures. Its distracting/time consuming to them since its their "side job" to work on my stuff.

I show up for vids/pics .. when I can. I missed the yanking of #473's powertrain -- missed a flight connection. I asked them to document their work, but they were time pressed .. part of which was waiting for me to NOT show up. I am beholdin' to the HD guys to help me stay on budget. so i am reluctant to make this job a bigger pain in *** for them then it already is.

We have since dragged it to Amish country for interior rough-in (mainly carpentry kinda work --- somebody else is doing electro-mechanical in northern PA).
After rough-in interior, we drag it back in April for reinstall of original engine and Allison, new tires, then its to northern PA for EM fitments (plumbing, water, power distribution) through the summer, including back to Amish country for fixtures/cabinet work, etc.

Paint and body basically remainder of the year 2020 (lotsa rubbing to get the "Silverside" look I want), probably into spring 2021 for shakedown (short trips, high speed, etc.). Anyway, thats the plan

Whisperer checked out as best he could the cradle before I bought it. He surmised it could come out straight and EZ. The HD kids said that's exactly what it did. They were on level concrete and the lifting rig was sorta like a pallet truck. All their time was spent (two guys) identifying/liquid wrenching/taking care, etc. with potentially unobtainium stuff that we didnt wanna break .. labeling/bagging stuff.

Whisperer was legitimately impressed with #858's knowledge of what stuff was, all of it designed and retired before he was even born. Whisperer even commented a couple of times 'Oh, that's what that is".

On the "ooh dont do that", kid erred by raising the *** of the whole coach as that, even though he tried to level it with the wood, made cradle harder to slide and risked damage to the skid rails. Still a job well done given what he had to work with.

 

[amazinblue82]

Not buying this bus of course, just pointing out design elements/colors my "decorator" (ex-sister in law .. actually did this work for MCI 20 years ago). "Oak and Leather", burgundy or grey, or burgandy and grey.

THis particular bus also has several design features .. its broken into three sections, minimal use of buikheads, and has pillar fixture lights and privacy shades. My bus will have three sections because its got three levels.

Captains chairs (4) on lower level (though designer said one side should be a sofabed. Second level, dining and entertainment. Starboard bulkhead for sink/shower on aft side, Port bulkhead with fridge/head on aft side. sliding door to third level master suite, head and shower aft of buikheads.

Anyway, i show this for colors. Price of this coach is my budget for engine/trans/EM/interior fitment on #473. Not included is tires and paint/body. its all gotta come in under $80K. Not scrimping on mechanicals, but will be looking for good used water & power equipment, AC systems, and probably microwave/fridge/monitors.

My real budget burner is how much entertainment . all the stuff on this MCI is pricey .. Whisperer says though I might be able to cannabalize a high-end wreck and get a ton of stuff at great price. I am on the lookout for that.

1998 MCI VIP CONVERSION BUS # 274

• $64,995.00 - Ready to Roll.
• MCI "I-MPV" VIP / Entertainer bus with 327,280 miles
• Series 60 Detroit Diesel engine
• Allison B500 automatic transmission
• Aluminum Wheels
• Retarder
• Webasto
• (2) 12V accessory outlets at driver
• 110V electrical outlets throughout coach
  
• Sony AM/FM/CD
• Shore Power
• 20KW Kohler by Kubota generator w/ 7,357 hours
• CruiseAir basement unit A/C 30 amps / 50/60hz / input 115/230 / SN L97C
• Day/Night window shades
• CB radio w/ mic
• Sony Serius XM/Bluetooth/USB radio
• 4 Captains chairs in front lounge
• Dinette table/chairs seat 4, it folds down to make a bed to sleep 1-2, and also has under-the-cushions storage areas.
  
• Front-lounge couch sits 4 and is a sleeper sofa which sleeps 2.
  
• Huge co-pilot seat with fold-down step (to avoid legs hanging over steps)
  
• Front lounge TV is 15" w/ 10-CD changer & DVD/VHS players
• Direct TV boxes available in front & rear of coach
• Kitchenette has: Norcold refridgerator, Sink, Built-in soap dispenser, coffee pot, drinks/ice bin, Sharp microwave, & very ample cabinet & counter spaces and a pantry!
  
• A garbage bin goes directly into the bay of the bus for easy, spacious & out-of-sight, dumping capability.
• 6 swivel chairs in the rear of coach for VIP board-room meeting space with projector screen. Fold-down Table optional. Also a great party-bus layout.
• 27" TV in rear boardroom w/ Sony H-Fi Stereo/VCR/DVD/10-CD changer & Bose surround-sound.
• Wine-gard in-motion satellite.
• Bathroom has a full shower, toilet, sink & very ample cabinet space.

 

[cantflip]

Whenever the city specked out a new order of buses they always included 3 or 4 spare complete spare cradle assemblies. That was usually on an order of around a hundred buses.

So for 1001 busses scattered across the country, how many spares do you think Greyhound had? An especially interesting question when you think about them starting with the twin 4's and then converting to the 8-71's. That's a lot tougher to plan for than a central garage, and I imagine the conversion and breakdowns leading up to it made for some real scheduling nightmares.

I also read some speculation somewhere that there may have been some 12-71 conversions... IDK if that would even fit, and imagine that if it happened it was exclusive to a very few crossing the Rockies where they may have wanted more power. Too many cylinder engines always get my attention for at least a minute.

 

[amazinblue82]

I never heard anybody discuss a 12-71 conversion in one of these coaches. I dont doubt somebody's tried it tho.

Owners of 8V71's dont report issues with mountains .. guess it would depend of course on load and condition of the mill (at full reconditioned power or with 500,000 miles on it since rebuild), full of passengers and luggage or as an RV towing a trailer.

My 8V71 rebuild is gonna push the limits of what's possible out of it without sacrificing reliability/original look and not breaking the bank. I am discovering you can spend whatever amount your wallet can stand on these converted buses (or any vehicle project for that matter). Mine will be equivalent of a "good looking, well running driver you can be proud to take anywhere" ... not a "Taj Mahal" on wheels (e/.g some Newells and Prevosts)

I toyed with 8V92 (SC's and turbo'd) for #473. EOD, more likely to have cooling issues from the extra oomph than not --so its been reported by others on the bus forums. If my dialed-up vintage Detroit/Allison combo aint cutting it, i guess I can always save up for a stouter mill later.

 

[twostick]

MCI built 100 model MC6 coaches for Greyhound starting in 69 with V12 Detroit Diesels.

Kevin

 

[amazinblue82]

MCI built 100 model MC6 coaches for Greyhound starting in 69 with V12 Detroit Diesels.

Kevin

Well look at this big honkin' some-gun. MCI MC-6 'SuperCruiser" .. Shoot, now i gotta have one! Six inches too-wide, and gone in two years. Never saw one in person .. wonder if any are left?

source: Bus Stop Classics: MCI MC-6 “Supercrusier” – Six Inches Too Far Ahead of Its Time

"Unless you’re a certified bus fan (and a certified old guy), it’s unlikely you’ll recognize this coach. Motor Coach Industries (MCI) built only 100 of them for Greyhound between 1969 and 1970, and they spent most of their time on roads in Canada and on the two US coasts. When introduced, it was probably the most unique intercity bus in service. It’s an MCI MC-6 Supercrusier.

First some history – by the mid-1960’s, Greyhound’s General Motors PD 4501 “Scenicrusiers” were getting tired – they had been in front-line service for a good 10 years and needed to be replaced. You may remember that Greyhound purchased MCI in 1959 to serve as its sole source provider, largely based on its disappointment with the 4501, which had initial powertrain reliability problems and later developed cracked frames.

Size: The MC-6 was the first 102 inch wide 40 foot long intercity coach. At the time, Canada and several US states on both coasts had increased their interstate highway maximum vehicle width dimensions from 96 to 102 inches. Greyhound had assumed, incorrectly, that other states would follow suit and adopt these wider limits also.

But many states kept their 96 inch rule until the Federal government enacted the Surface Transportation Highway Act in 1982 which standardized the 102 inch width on the entire national highway network. As such, these buses were confined to routes in Canada and along the two US coasts. Initially, the MC-6s operated only on the East Coast, but later were all sent to work on the West Coast.

Power: The MC-6 was one of few coaches to use the GM/DD 12V-71 engine, a 14 liter, 852 cu in V-12 monster than twisted out over 400 hp and 1200 ft lbs of torque (other versions would go up to 600 hp). With its unique two stroke exhaust note, this engine was nicknamed the “Buzzin’ Dozen” and was paired with a Spicer or Fuller manual transmission. It gave these buses superb performance, albeit with a penalty in fuel consumption.

The eighty-five MC-6’s in the US (fifteen remained in Canada) were subsequently re-engined with the 8V-71T and Allison automatics in 1977 when they were sent to the West Coast. The US fleet was retired in 1980, and sold off to other operators. The Canadian MC-6s retained their DD 12V-71 engines and manual transmission.

Multi-stepped Seating Area and Roof: Most models in the late ‘60‘s-early 70’s had stepped seating areas and notched roofs; the GM Buffalo, Eagle Model 05, etc. The MC-6 had two stepped areas (not including the entrance); three steps up to the first seating area behind the driver, then one additional step up to more elevated seating from the middle to the rear of the bus.

In turn, the roof had two notches instead of one. This made it 12 ft tall at its highest point, so it was not only the widest but also the tallest intercity bus then in operation.

The more mainstream MCI MC-7 (shown below, @ 96 in wide, 40 ft length) developed in conjunction with the MC-6, achieved much greater success, with over 2500 being built, and soon became the mainstay of the Greyhound fleet.

​

 

[340Dave]

I have a 90 MCI 102 A2, 6V92TA 300HP with a ZF Auto trans, started out as a GO transit commuter coach in Ontario, then belonged to the Metro Toronto Police as a mobile command post/ recruitment center/ troop transporter. I drove it home from Ontario, got it as far as a rough camper converted and have been taking it to some music festivals etc....
Got side tracked yet again when a friend of mine in Prince Edward Island developed a brain tumor and had to sell 2 Motorhomes that he was working on...I bought them well.... because....squirrel....... sold one and kept and renovated a 92 35' Gulfstream with a 12V Cummins and an Allison 4spd

 

[amazinblue82]

cool rigs 340Dave. diggin' the open look! thanks.

 

[340Dave]

cool rigs 340Dave. diggin' the open look! thanks.

Lots of room for people to come over and socialize , we haul everything we need with us, generator, BBQ, porta pottie, water, appliances , lawn furniture, etc.....not sure if I'm going to go to the next level or not....I sold a 30' 5th wheel last summer that was going to be the donor unit for the bus....

 

[amazinblue82]

setback ... we think we may have "cracked the bus" reinstalling powertrain (see post #1132)

just got the phone call last night. guys are sure they see a "crack" (you need to look up between the tandem axles with bright shop light) that wasn't there before we yanked the tray.

Whisperer said it might happen (there's a lotta passenger-powertrain weight/ground pounding as 4501's obviously have big ****s overhanging the axles - design weakness in the build that is well known since inception) and how to fix will not make me jump off a cliff .. but it'll eat up some contingency time/money we put in for stuff like this.

He's gonna drive up to look at it in a couple weeks (weather permitting).

more to come.....better deal with it now than later in any event rather than after its all fitted out.

 

[polara71]

Oh no .....!

 

[commando1]

What's the problem.

 

[amazinblue82]

yes, its a fabrication and welding problem.

its appears this bus was never experiencing "cracks" while in service. OR did but were unrepaired. No evidence of repairs when i bought it.

I cannot untangle this .. conflicting stories out there .. when the powertrain retrofits were done in early 60's, some buses also had cracking. word is while ALL got inspected, only some were "remediated" for cracks at that time. No records available, it seems, by serial number, of what bus got what, when, during or after the powertrain deal.

Greyhound used them after powertrain retrofit for another decade. over that time some did crack. the fix was welding metal plates, behind the monocoque skin and on the "frame rails (wrong term, but monocoque guys know the right term for the innards) above the rear wheels and around the last two banks of upper deck windows.

Fifty+ year old mystery aside, its easy to do during a refurb like mine, relatively speaking, cuz you gotta do it from the inside. The insides are torn out anyway. still takes a bit of skill but Whisperer says be calm ... unless those frame rail thingies have issues (rare, but a giant pain if so cuz then your into messin' with the skin of the coach)

Onward undaunted... for now.