Machining work 516 heads port work/bigger valves/hardened seats??

Yes the 906 is probably second best after the 915 one year only 1967 head!
We have run low tens with a 906 head and normally aspirated in an A-Bod..

Folks have run nines with a couple of hundred shot of NOS.
Always wanted to do a nine with a N/A iron 440, but its so easy with stroker kits now...

512ci will go into a C-Body with a normal oilpump pickup tube enlarged to 1/2inch bore.
The only problem we have is oil starvation with the 5 quart pan the C-Bods have to suffer with.

Ten second C-body is the next plan for us Brits...:mob:
No where near the Flying Finns and their seven second street car

View attachment 752162
Speaking of oil pans, 440 source has a 6 quart pan for the C's, I plan on buying that pan soon.

Making a slow & heavy car like the C's is quite the accomplishment. Lead sled express!
 
When you have a 400 or 440 bore size, the limiting factory on valve sizes is the physical dimensions of the valves to each other. As in gap between them in the combustion chamber. The larger bore size also decreases the shrouding affect of the interface of the valves to the cyl walls, too.

The old Mopar Performance Porting Templates, I ordered a set one time just to see what they were. Their claim is that using them on 452, 906, and other B/RB heads will make them all flow the same amount of air. They are printed on a 1/8" or so piece of clear acrylic. Cut them out and stick them in the ports to see where metal needs to be removed.

When we put a set of 906s on my '67 383 4bbl motorr, I pulled them out one night to compare the ports of the '67 heads to the ports of a set of new MP Stage IV heads I have (NOS). It was hard to see any difference.

As things have evolved, I perceive that WE have inhaled a lot of smoke about Chrysler B/RB cylinder heads over the years. When the 906s came out, with their open chambers that were "better for emissions", their main claim to fame was the 1.74" exhaust valves. Plus the "open chamber", too.

Then came the 452s, with their hardened exh seats, for unleaded fuel durability. I remember people talking about them not being a good performance head, for whatever reason, too. Perhaps because the CR had decreased (via different lower compression height pistons) more than anything else? Guilt by association?

Then quench dome pistons to make an open chamber effectively into a closed chamber combustion chamber with increased quench/squish areas. Then Vizard leaned more toward "quench" than not, so now we are back to "closed chamber" orientations.

The 1.88" exh valves came out of the 413 Max Wedge Program, as I recall. Many suspected that if they were good enough for the max output drag race motors, they would be great in a street car, too. I would like to see a dyno test of a 413 with a 284/284 Street HEMI grind cam with the 1.60, 1.74, and 1.88 exhaust valves to compare the power curves with RB/B HP exh manifolds and headers. AND, for good measure, a set of '67 440/375 closed chamber 1.74" exh valve yeads. THAT might make for a good "Powernation" segment!

In a 1967 HOT ROD Magazine article, they sought to explore the power limits of a Chrysler 383. As in a 383/325-spec short block, as the foundation of the article. At somewhere in the progression, seems like a pair of the 440/375 heads were added. Maybe +10 horsepower from the larger exh valves? I need ot dig that article out to be sure. Although I fully suspect that extra power would not be noticeable at 3000rpm power levels! I also suspect that by the time that extra power gets to the rear wheels to move the car, it would take instrumented testing to find them.

IF one is building a 500+CID motor, they need as much valve as they can get into the heads. For a 400CID street car with the Chrysler HP cam, not so much.

When Chrysler went to the 1.74" exh valve OEM, in 1968 B/RB engines (even the 383 2bbl!), it probably had more to do with production standardization (reduced assy line complexity and a "one size fits all" approach to cyl head costs), more than anything else. In a time when "high-performance" power was desired.

Which might also open a discussion of how a 383/330 engine existed in the earlier 1960s and also in 1970? Related to CR, carb airflow differences, exh manifold differences, camshaft differences, exh manifold differences, etc.!

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
...I would like to see a dyno test of a 413 with a 284/284 Street HEMI grind cam with the 1.60, 1.74, and 1.88 exhaust valves to compare the power curves with RB/B HP exh manifolds and headers. AND, for good measure, a set of '67 440/375 closed chamber 1.74" exh valve yeads. ...

In a 1967 HOT ROD Magazine article, they sought to explore the power limits of a Chrysler 383. As in a 383/325-spec short block, as the foundation of the article. At somewhere in the progression, seems like a pair of the 440/375 heads were added. Maybe +10 horsepower from the larger exh valves? I need ot dig that article out to be sure. Although I fully suspect that extra power would not be noticeable at 3000rpm power levels! I also suspect that by the time that extra power gets to the rear wheels to move the car, it would take instrumented testing to find them. ...

...Which might also open a discussion of how a 383/330 engine existed in the earlier 1960s and also in 1970? Related to CR, carb airflow differences, exh manifold differences, camshaft differences, exh manifold differences, etc.!...

Enjoy!
CBODY67
Yes, I would like to see such a dyno battery on the 413 or a mild 440. 1 piece at a time, and in a logical order. Meaning, a guy would likely do the headers first in his car, then dig deeper into teh cam. So no point to dyno the cam thru log manifolds and then switch to headers.

I would also like to see dyno pulls starting at 1000 or 1500 rpm. Starting at 3000 is great for racing info, but most of us spend most of our time sub-3000.

And I too have wondered how the early-60s 383-4 had the same 330hp rating as the later ones with bigger valves, carb, taller intake manifold and HP exh manifolds.
 
Yes, I would like to see such a dyno battery on the 413 or a mild 440. 1 piece at a time, and in a logical order. Meaning, a guy would likely do the headers first in his car, then dig deeper into teh cam. So no point to dyno the cam thru log manifolds and then switch to headers.

I would also like to see dyno pulls starting at 1000 or 1500 rpm. Starting at 3000 is great for racing info, but most of us spend most of our time sub-3000.

And I too have wondered how the early-60s 383-4 had the same 330hp rating as the later ones with bigger valves, carb, taller intake manifold and HP exh manifolds.
I have noticed the rpm starting point issue on all of Nick's Garage's dyno pulls. I suspect it might have something to do with the capacity of "the absorber" to start a dyno run at that lower rpm, BUT that is just my suspicion.

Which might relate to the cost of a dyno that would work well at the lower rpm levels and also do well at the higher rpms (which is what most people want to see)?

The reason I specified the Chrysler HP exh manifolds was so that they would be "a common feature" in the mix. Better than stock log manifolds, but not quite to the variability of various manufacturers' tube headers. Where tube length and diameter can play a part in torque or horsepower. I know there are general guidelines on tube size, but the factory HP manifolds would take that situation out of the mix.

Certainly, with "more cam" and "more displacement", any type of headers would be beneficial over any cast iron exh manifold style. Although Chrysler had an "up and out the back" exh manifold design in 1962, for non-power brake cars, which looks a lot like what the later B/RB HP manifolds became. Plus the earlier Max Wedge manifold "headers" that looked like they came out of a cookie dough cylinder.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
Modern performance heads for bb's seen to value more intake valve then pushing exhaust with a 1.88.

Sir Dodge, did you cc your 516's. Just by looking at them, they seem to have large closed chambers. People often think they are getting compression with them when they don't. I've measured a few sets and have had one set that was milled a lot come in around 72cc but others were closer to 80.
And yes, some of the open chamber heads can be 90.

As I've said before, go read the moparts.com tech archive, fast68plymouth, who goes by prheads on these sites, catalogued step by step work on the OEM heads. Whatever you think you're getting with them, his data tells you.
 
Modern performance heads for bb's seen to value more intake valve then pushing exhaust with a 1.88.

Sir Dodge, did you cc your 516's. Just by looking at them, they seem to have large closed chambers. People often think they are getting compression with them when they don't. I've measured a few sets and have had one set that was milled a lot come in around 72cc but others were closer to 80.
And yes, some of the open chamber heads can be 90.

As I've said before, go read the moparts.com tech archive, fast68plymouth, who goes by prheads on these sites, catalogued step by step work on the OEM heads. Whatever you think you're getting with them, his data tells you.
Regrettably I have not CC'd the heads, YET, but if I had to guess for now the CC would maybe be around 77? Maybe 76? The machinist that worked on my heads shaved 6 thou, I'm guessing the amount shaved was just to true up the surfaces from the block to head surfaces.

Appreciate the tip off on Moparts.com
 
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Nicely worded reply from 67C-Bod!
The iron 440 head is not a great piece full-stop!

The 383 head was put onto the 440 and never improved.
So did Mother Mopar did make a passenger head that would be wicked...

She sure did and a very rare pair were made in 69/70 but never released?
A closed chamber set and an open chamber set called 'W1s' aka bigblock W2.

Weslake head info page.jpeg


Larry Shrieb.jpg


Weslake head info page 2.jpeg
 
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That pair was/is at the Chrysler museum.
Another pair were sent to Weslake Engineering UK.

I have the privilege of owner several ex Harry Weslake engines.
The 426 hemi replacement for Nascar in 1971 was a 426 wedge with W1 OVAL-ports.

Ovalport Weslake head.jpg


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Ovalport 440 heads and rocker on.jpg
 
Harry Weslake said it was a world beater and on the same level as the 426 hemi!
Edelbrock rat roaster intake manifold and a sand cast dominator carb restricted to 950 cfm.

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2014-11-14 11.37.53.jpg
 
Just think how much more Mopars would have won if this head had gone into mass production???
7.06 Nascar rods with custom made pistons that revved to 7500.

Apparently it was close to 650 horsepower...
Not bad for an iron 426 wedge motor in 1969.:usflag::usflag::usflag:

426 hemi rod with Weslake-440 HEMI-Rod+piston.jpg
 
Thanks for the pictures and information. What version of the Mopar Perf B/RB Engine race manual was that in?

We saw mention of Mr. Westlake's involvement in race engines for Chrysler, but mostly in the LA engines for Indy Car-type racing. Which was not a main interest of "hot rodders" back then.

In the 1970s era, most of the port designs and sizes seemed to continue to be done "by sight" and what appeared to look good, best I could figure. There was much discussion of "oval port" and "square port" big block Chevy engines. One was only worthy of a 2bbl 396 Caprice as the "square ports" for real performance engines. OF course, back then, as many only cared about was 6000+rpm power. Not "power coming off the turns" (i.e.,, a more balanced approach) needed for road racing.

In some cases, it seemed that their port orientations did not justify their efforts. Pontiac had their "killer" RamAir IV, round port heads (as the Ford BOSS 302 heads had done), which were said to mimic the best road racing heads. Very limited production, so highly desired and sought after. Ages later, in the 1990s, when somebody finally flowed a RA IV head, they discovered those round port heads flowed incrementally better than the earlier, normal port RAIII heads did on a flow bench. This was reported in the old "High Performance Pontiac" magazine (a GREAT magazine for Pontiac and other car enthusiasts!).

In the earlier 1980s era, engine builders (as in NASCAR and such) were starting to delve further into combustion dynamics, with the later result the "heart-shaped" (their term) combustion chamber, which was felt to be the best at that time. Plus further refining their knowledge of "swirl". Which I loosely term "active air".

My late machine shop operative worked for an engine builder who did some work for the higher-level dirt track racers. In a SBC chamber of that time, they noticed darker areas in the chamber, which did not get enough air flow past them to keep the carbon from residing there. He said it was discovered that taking a punch and dimpling that area, the next time those heads came in, the dimpled area was as clean as the other areas.

The Dual-Plug 426 HEMI engine was an attempt to get more of the air/fuel mixture burned for more power. Looking at some of Mr. Vizard's combustion event images, the size of the total combustion chamber becomes important. As the speed of the flame front from the spark plug's spark is constant, it makes sense that a larger bore could exceed the full flame front's "burn" the farther it went AND do all of this in the very short time available at TDC. Adding another spark plug in the same chamber could alleviate that (in the 426HEMI and other later dual-plug motors). If one looks at the current highest-horsepower motors the OEMs build, it is apparent that the more-optimum bore size is not much bigger than 4.0" diameter, using longer strokes to get CID.

End result, back in the earlier 1970s, when the big bore, short stroke engine was perceived to be the best option, bigger ports meant "more top-end power" that won races. This was also when the "bore to stroke" and "rod length to stroke" ratios evolved. With B/S of about 1.28 and RL/S or about 1.9 evolved as "top of the optimum bell curve of results. Then, in about 1969, I discovered a small article about a new 430CID engine Chevy had designed for the Can-AM race series, that would best any similar-size engine Chevy had. The difference was the use of these ratios, the article claimed.

After seeing that, I got out one of the old Petersen Publishing Company "Engine Annuals" (which had all of the engine specs in them, including rod length) and my trusty K&E slide rule to check the ratios of various engines. I discovered that ONLY TWO production engines met those standards . . . the Chevy 302 Z/28 V-8 AND . . . the Chrysler low-deck 383. The fact the 383 was in that lofty mix was a big surprise!

In the 1980s, I happened across an issue of "MoPerformance Magazine", which had an in-depth article about how 1950s Chrysler designed their V-8 engines. Hidden in that article, was mention of "piston side loading" related to stroke length. They had determined that when the "swing of the connecting rod exceeded a total of 15 degrees", side loading became greater and consumed too much power from increased piston skirt loading. A different way of looking at "Rod Lenth to Stroke"! This was well before how stroke and rod length affected intake port/valve size issues! Which explained how a SBC400 could run as good as it did with a bad combination of "parts". Which also gets into acceleration from the "piston stop points" of TDC and BDC.

In exhaust valve sizing, while the intake size is important on naturally-aspirated engines (getting more mixture into the chamber), exhaust flow is influenced by hot, pressurized gas flow. With the end result being the exh valve is approx 75% of the intake valve diameter. With the chamber configuration and valve angles possibly having some effects, too.

Looking at how all of these things progressed through the decades since the middle 1950s, the culmination of it all is reflected in the current aluminum heads in the aftermarket, at several price points. With the Edelbrocks being at the lower end and AFR and Trick Flow being at the upper end. With AFR having been around through much of the air flow and combustion dynamics issues, from the 1970s. Many choices.

Knowing how all of the OEMs were involved in "advanced research" on combustion chamber designs in the earlier 1950s, I tend to agree with Uncle Tony's orientation that the Poly engine should have been "the one" Chrysler chose for better street performance. It had so many neat things that were used in later 1960s engine designs. Like canted valves in a wedge combustion chamber. Use of "quench" or "squish" for more "active air" in the chamber. Efficiently doing all of these things on one rocker shaft, for decreased production cost. With, as he noted, "seemingly endless mid-range torque", which made normal highway driving a joy to experience. In a time of many 2-speed automatics being used, which needed torque to work better.

Thanks for the pictures of your Westlake Collection of motors and parts! Interesting things many have not ever seen or read about, especially the B/RB engines!

I AM curious, though, about your mention of "383 head" being different than "440 head"? Casting differences? Valve size differences? Where used? Considering that Chrysler produced ONE casting that went on both engines, for decades. Valve size could determine which engine the head went onto, but same head gaskets and such, so the ONE casting went everywhere, with "valve sizes and related machining of the valve seats" being the difference. One casting architecture that went from 1958 Plymouth Fury 350s to 1978 New Yorker 440s, with evolutionary improvements during that time. Which means the 906 head will fit ALL of those engine sizes, except for possible valve/cyl wall interference issues on the 350s and 361s.

Just some accumulated thoughts,
CBODY67
 
Sure, all that's cool. HP 440's should have always gotten the max wedge head, it was already on the shelf and if a more appropriate size for the engine.
 
The 'wedge' big-block head was designed for the 361 and the 383 engines.
That's why it got the 1.60 exhaust as it was just a small-block in reality.

The 413 Maxwedge was the performance engine in 1962 and then the 426 in 63/64.
We all know what happens then, the mighty 426 hemi is a 'rush-job in 64 and the rest is history...

But wait, the 440 comes along and by complete accident becomes the 'bread winner' for most folks!
Still having its small port 'smog heads' all through the 70's and no obvious replacement in sight.

As I have shown the Weslake W1 head was the replacement that never got into production.
Decisions are made at Corporate level that the buying public never get to see or hear about.

I guess the Oil crisis in the early 70's saw the demise of Mopar Muscle along with the others in the USA!
But again the 'buying public' soldiered on with 'what they had' and kept the Mopar flag flying.

We shall never know how well Mopars would have done with the W1 ovalport heads!
I am hoping that 'one day' the Weslake W1 engine will end up at Nick's garage for a DYNO test...:canada::usflag::drama:

Extra cooling passages.jpg


D-port exhaust Weslake head.jpg


Ovalport 'Weslake one' intake ports.jpg
 
From what I discovered, the B/RB heads did not always have 2.08" intake valves. Also be aware that the 413 was the first "B-family" engine for the 1958 model year, so the "bigger than 383" engines pre-dated it. I know this as I happened across a section containing "S.A.E. Transactions" in the Tx Tech Library in about 1974. Where Chrysler presented the paper on the design and operational characteristics of their new family of engines, which was 413 at that time, to the S.A.E. group, in 1957. The "low deck" 350 was in the Plymouth Fury with a 2x4bbl intake, a bit later in the model year. Replacing the prior "single-rocker shaft engine" with 2x4bbl carburetors.

A side note -- although Chrysler had been designing V-8s with "aircraft combustion chambers" for more power, when the Chevy 265 V-8 appeared for the 1955 model year, it certainly was "taken apart" by everybody, to see what made it work as well as it did. Light, compact, "rev-happy", easy to assemble, etc. Which also means that if you angle-nill a 906 head casting, it suddenly gets to look a lot like a Chevy-use combustion chamber, just bigger (for the larger bore sizes and longer Chrysler block). I saw that one afternoon when my late machine shop guy was angle-milling a pair of 906s. The earlier "closed chamnber" Chry heads, probably not so much. Of courfse, GM had no patent on the head design they used, I suspect, as they were wanting something that worked well.

Chevy put priority oiling to the mains. Chrysler put priority oiliing to the hydraulic valve lifters, but with a simple modification, the mains would be oiled first. The reason I suspected about that is that an elderly owner WILL hear a ticking hydraulic valve lifter before they feel a THUMP THUMP from a crankshaft bearing . . . with low engine oil level being the culprit. Chevy put the distributor at the rear of the motor, so low hoodlines could be had for the upcoming Corvette, but the level of the cowl would be higher. This also let "the new engine" be showcased rather than the distributor. Chryslers were more formal designs, so the initial front hood level was naturally higher. Smokey Yunick said he spent thousands of dollars (in the later 1950s) in long distance phone calls to Chevy Engineering ( mentioned in his book) to get them to move the distributor to the front of the motor. Why? Camshaft twist harmonics between the timing chain drive and the rear-mounted distributor, which affected engine timing as a result. So B/RB distributors were at the front. The A and LA motors still retained their rear distributors, though, probably because Chrysler did not want to do a complete re-design of those motors.

Valve sizes, 1.92 intakes on the earlier motors. 2.08 intakes did not happen until "power" became important on the drag strip, to the OEM brands. 2.02 intakes only existed in SBCs in the moer-HP engines, as 1.72 intakes in the 327/250 and 1.94 intakes in the 327/300 motor. Chevy seemed to be more open to several different cyl head castings to go with the larger intake valves and engine sizes, compared to Chrysler's "one size fits all, just machined for different valve sizes".

In ANY engine design, there will need to be some "limiting factor", by design. How much it might "limit" can be variable. In the later 1950s, it was carburetor cfm, with the bulk of 4bbls not getting past 550cfm, no matter the engine size. But back then, they were also marketed by "Cubic Inches of Venturi Diameter", with the Max Wedge Carter AFBs being the largest (which was touted in the advertisements). Also realize that it were the Max Wedges which had horsepower production above what the Chrysler 300 Letter Cars had. With those letter car engines being on-par with the Chevy Fuel Injection Corvette engines for power (the "1 Horsepower per Cubic Inch" standard) in the later 1950s.

Past the carburetor and cyl heads, the next "limiter" is the camshaft duration and lift. In those first B/RB engines, the cam duration was about 252/252 duration with .390" valve lift. Which, again, was very similar to what Chevy used, with the Ford FE engines being very similar. Those Chrysler cam specs were last used in the 1966 383 2bbl V-8s, replaced in 1967 by the 256/260 cam.

Another interesting thing is that the optimum spark advance for the SBC is 38-40* TDC at 4000rpm. Very much alike the same things for the Chrysler B/RB motor. Which can somewhat validate the two engine families' combustion characteristics and efficiency.

Now, fast forward to the middle 1980s dirt track motors. In order to get "more power" from their SBCs, in certain classes, the builders were stroking the SBC so far that the piston pin was actually behind the ring package. So they were fusing an inch of metal to the block decks to they coiuld get the rings above the piston pin for better ring sealing stability. When I heard that, I thought "They ought to use a Chrysler block made of aluminum, with a taller deck height." As I grinned about how much they were Chrysler-izing the Chevy motor in the process.

The last limiting area is the exhaust system, from the exh valve to the end of the rear bumper. Relating to exh manifold design/outlet sizing and the under-car exh system.

Were the Chrysler owners short-changed because they did not have better cyl heads? Mostly not, as they were not all drag racers or NASCAR racers. They wanted power, reliablity, and a good bit of fuel economy in their cars. Which Chrysler Corp's high placings (if not outright wins) in the Annual Mobil Economy Runs indicated. THAT probably sold as many cars as their NASCAR and drag racing class wins did. Don't need class-leadiang cyl heads to get those fuel economy issues, although combustion dynamics came into play with the emphasis on exhaust emissions (which can also relate to fuel economy and CO emissions). And from magazine accounts, those Mobil Fuel Eonomy Run drivers took their work just as seriously as any drag racing or NASCAR driver ever did! Lots of little tricks that had been learned from proving grounds testings, like using soft drings in cups "angle of the fluid" to supply information of grade angle, which then related to how much throttle to use without getting in to the "power enrichment" circuit of the carb at what speed. Which the observer in the back seat might not be aware of!

The OTHER thing is that, by observation, Chrysler built "package motors", where ALL of the components worked together to supply their trademark operating characteristics (mentioned above). Everything was sized "just right" to work with the tighter-action torque converters in their trademark Torque Flight automatics (again for fuel economy and quick throttle response), in the later 1950s-mid 1960s. In a 1965 Plymouth Satellite 383 4bbl road test, CAR LIFE took the car to the drag strip and let it "idle" down the drag strip, with a trap speed of 8mph. In later model years, the "tightness" of the torque converters were loosened a bit to decrease "creep at idle".

And, though all of these things, Chrysler Products tended to dominate the higher classes they raced in on the drag strips and were very competitive with those they raced against. Aided through the "leisure time": activities of the Chrysler engineers in "The Ramcharger" group. Which led to the various "Performance Clinics" at Dodge and Plymouth dealers in the later 1960s and the eventual emergence of the Chrysler "Hustle Stuff/Direct Connection/Mopar Performance factory-backed racing manuals and parts items.

Chrysler was not the only one playing this game. Smokey Yunick was the main Chevy guy. Several engine shops did Fords, as Holman-Moody, and even Buick had a skunkworks unit of powertrain engineers who drag raced. FUN TIMES back then, keeping up with everything!

Just my recollections from back then. YMMV
CBODY67
 
OOps we have gone way off track here methinks.

Why use a 361 when you can overbore it to 383?
Why use a 383 when you can get a 400 and put a 512 kit in it?

Its all about usage and what you want to do with your car.
For me the thought of running my 512ci as a daily is nonsense.

If you car came with a 361, I would go 383 as its the same casting.
Bigger bores give better breathing for the intake valves.

That's why the 413 was soon out-gunned by the 426 at 4.250 bore.
The hemi at 4.250 has almost a perfect induction angle for the incoming charge.

Now the hemispherical head has been upgraded with the new Hellcat engines.
All that is old is new again...:thankyou:
 
On a different note, camshafts.
We don't all have access to dyno's and rolling roads.

But we do have access to a drag strip and times are telling.
Back in the day we used Purple shafts and went up the scale.

Same 440 block, same 906 heads, pocket ported and the .590 purple was truly amazing.
Times dropped from 14.50 down to 11.99 with each cam change.

AND this is a daily driver B-body, oops I've said it now.:mob:
Be careful what you wish for and 'less is more'.
 
I see Indy have done a Poly head for the Big-blocks now!

This could have been done in the seventies by Mother Mopar.
They had the design already done in the 318 poly engines,

The lower picture shows the Hinkles re-designed 318 Poly head that made 550hp.
Rumour has it that someone is casting Poly Aluminum heads in China???

Mopar predator head.jpg


Hinkles-426-poly-cam-and-lifters.jpg
 
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The Poly head was a fantastic design that was overlooked when the LA head was made.
I think Mother Mopar missed a trick and never went back to its earlier designs.

CNC Poly head.jpg
 
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