'71 Sport Fury

[Big_John]

You know of an easy way to stop the heat riser from rattling?

It depends on what shape the riser is in. There's a thermostatic spring and a anti-rattle spring. One or both might be missing. The bushings might loose etc.

Probably the best thing to do is wire the thing open so it doesn't rattle and you can hear the other noise.

 

[TheFearlessFury]

Sorry decel, sounds like it's just starting. Has it gotten any worse since you first heard it?

What's a decel? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Yeah Tallhair I would like to record the sound, i was thinking of trying to record it on my phone with my friends help tomorrow. And yeah It world be okay of the thread was renamed to something, not sure what though, it's pretty late right where I'm at and I'm really tired so it's tough to think of a good name.

Also the knocking hasn't really gotten worse, it's about the same as it was before I tried to fix it last time. It just started up two days ago and it's about the same. It gets worse as the engine heats up, or so it seems. It doesn't knock when the car is in gear for sure though, I tried revving it in a parking ramp and didn't hear it at all even with all the echoing. So that's kind of weird right?

 

[Dobalovr]

What's a decel? I feel like I'm missing something here.

When the engine is decelerating does it make the noise. In other words at speed with your foot off the gas as the car slows down do you hear the noise more clearly? It's the difference between an engine under load versus coasting that may give a clue to the sound.

 

[TheFearlessFury]

When the engine is decelerating does it make the noise. In other words at speed with your foot off the gas as the car slows down do you hear the noise more clearly? It's the difference between an engine under load versus coasting that may give a clue to the sound.

Ahh, I understand now. I might have caught that last night but I wasn't sure. I'll check tonight after I get off work and let you guys know

 

[TheFearlessFury]

Alright I just got home from work, and my observations are interesting. I just finished the last of tonight's coffee so my thoughts should be pretty clear and at least partially coherent.
Anyway. When i started the car up i could not detect any knock in neutral, whether i gave it throttle or not. When i was driving i could not hear any knock during acceleration or deceleration, in fact power delivery was quite smooth. I stopped to rev the engine in neutral several times and could detect no knock. Whether the engine was at operating temperature or under it didn't seem to trigger any knock at that time.

However, during the mile long hill climb that leads to my house i began to detect the knock. Even when the car was in drive. I could hear it during acceleration and faintly during deceleration until it hit idling speeds then it would drop off. When I got home i threw the car into neutral and the knock was still there. And would match the throttle i would give the car. So maybe the knock has something to do with the hill climb putting strain on the car.

Also I felt that I should mention that my car seems to lurch noticeably when shifting from neutral to reverse or drive and vise versa. I add this because i read that that could be related to a bad torque converter. And my fury was once used for hauling which could put strain on the converter.

Anyhow I'm heading to bed, anyone have any ideas as to what the issue might be?

 

[cantflip]

listen to Big John... wire the heat riser so it is out of the equation. Used to see those things wrapped open with coat hangers all the time, when they were common.

You have lots of good competent help in here already. Don't jump the gun on repairs just yet, diagnostics is a process of elimination. Happens more warm takes pistons out of the equation and makes rods or main bearings still possible... they would not be more about which side of the engine though. Closer to the rear, could be a torque converter bolt that has loosened up... easy enough to check and for now you can leave the cover plate off the bell housing... in case you need t go back there. FSM for firing order info and pictorial diagrams... model year not as critical as engine size... I don't think they ever changed.

I have tried to diagnose from recordings before... it's just not the same thing... but easy enough if you have the equipment to do it.

After you do the above checks, we can isolate cylinders. Easy with an older car like yours. Warm it until you hear the noise, pick a condition that produces the noise consistently. One at a time shut off the engine and remove 1 spark plug wire and ground it (a jumper wire with a small alligator clip works good). Run through the same condition that produces the knock... If one or two cylinders this eliminates the noise... those cylinders need to be made note of. Isolating cylinders helps prove or rule out connecting rod bearings.

Please do the above tests in order so there are no false results. It is very easy to convince yourself you have enough information and jump into a rebuild... don't. Also there is more than one repair possibility, post back here and be patient before you tear into it again... we have lots of good help to offer still. If you solve the problem with any of the tests... keep driving to verify the issue has gone... don't keep testing other stuff... too easy to confuse the results.

I know this is a little new to you, but you are doing fine. I have had apprentices that did much worse.

 

[Big_John]

However, during the mile long hill climb that leads to my house i began to detect the knock. Even when the car was in drive. I could hear it during acceleration and faintly during deceleration until it hit idling speeds then it would drop off.

Hmmm... Maybe this is just bad spark knock.
Running fresh premium gas?

Back the timing off 5° and see if it is better.

 

[TheFearlessFury]

Hmmm... Maybe this is just bad spark knock.
Running fresh premium gas?

Back the timing off 5° and see if it is better. I'll try this as soon as I get the chance.

Yeah I'm using fresh premium gas

listen to Big John... wire the heat riser so it is out of the equation. Used to see those things wrapped open with coat hangers all the time, when they were common.

You have lots of good competent help in here already. Don't jump the gun on repairs just yet, diagnostics is a process of elimination. Happens more warm takes pistons out of the equation and makes rods or main bearings still possible... they would not be more about which side of the engine though. Closer to the rear, could be a torque converter bolt that has loosened up... easy enough to check and for now you can leave the cover plate off the bell housing... in case you need t go back there. FSM for firing order info and pictorial diagrams... model year not as critical as engine size... I don't think they ever changed.

I have tried to diagnose from recordings before... it's just not the same thing... but easy enough if you have the equipment to do it.

After you do the above checks, we can isolate cylinders. Easy with an older car like yours. Warm it until you hear the noise, pick a condition that produces the noise consistently. One at a time shut off the engine and remove 1 spark plug wire and ground it (a jumper wire with a small alligator clip works good). Run through the same condition that produces the knock... If one or two cylinders this eliminates the noise... those cylinders need to be made note of. Isolating cylinders helps prove or rule out connecting rod bearings.

Please do the above tests in order so there are no false results. It is very easy to convince yourself you have enough information and jump into a rebuild... don't. Also there is more than one repair possibility, post back here and be patient before you tear into it again... we have lots of good help to offer still. If you solve the problem with any of the tests... keep driving to verify the issue has gone... don't keep testing other stuff... too easy to confuse the results.

I know this is a little new to you, but you are doing fine. I have had apprentices that did much worse.

Thanks cantflip, I'll try the cylinder isolation today, what exactly do I do to ground the sparkplug? I'm guessing clip a negative jumped cable to the sparkplug wire and clip the other end to a ground?
I just finished checking the spark plug firing order, it's good, no plugs mixed around.

 

[cantflip]

Yeah I'm using fresh premium gas

Thanks cantflip, I'll try the cylinder isolation today, what exactly do I do to ground the sparkplug? I'm guessing clip a negative jumped cable to the sparkplug wire and clip the other end to a ground?
I just finished checking the spark plug firing order, it's good, no plugs mixed around.

The whole engine is a pretty good ground... I never go near the battery with secondary ignition. Just find a nice clean bolt or bracket, and be sure to duplicate conditions that cause the knock... but don't drive too long with the cylinder misfiring.

If this narrows down to one cylinder, let us know.

BTW, Big John wasn't wrong... I just assumed with the intake off, your timing had been recently checked.

 

[TheFearlessFury]

The whole engine is a pretty good ground... I never go near the battery with secondary ignition. Just find a nice clean bolt or bracket, and be sure to duplicate conditions that cause the knock... but don't drive too long with the cylinder misfiring.

If this narrows down to one cylinder, let us know.

BTW, Big John wasn't wrong... I just assumed with the intake off, your timing had been recently checked.

Actually I haven't checked the timing recently. Although I did put on a new timing chain and gear. I didn't mess too much with it though.

I haven't checked the plugs yet, but I'll let you know as soon as I get that done, It'll probably be sometime early afternoon central time.

 

[TheFearlessFury]

Alright I did the sparkplug isolation that cantflip recommended. None of the sparkplug wires I pulled completely stopped the knocking but when I pulled sparkplug wire number 4 the knocking quieted down quite a bit. Even during revving in neutral. It wasn't gone but it was certainly muted. Thoughts?

I did mention earlier that I thought the knock was coming from the front passenger side of the engine. Looks like I might have been on to something.

 

[65sporty]

From what your saying if the noise has changed on #4 cyl I say that it's the culprit and to me with the info you have presented it sounds like a rod knock. When does it start? When the engine is warm? I listen for a rod knock by lightly revving the engine in park or neutral. Usually you will here the knock when the engine is on it's decel(no load). I will usually open the hood and run the throttle by hand so I can listen to it. You don't need to rev it a lot about 1500-2000 rpm. When the rpm comes down (decel) is when you will here it knock. I hope this helps.

 

[cantflip]

Sounds like decision making time.

If it were a newer car without concern for cylinder/ring wear also being present, the dealer would simply (not really) replace the bearings if the crank and block looked ok still. This may still work, but you probably can't get small increment sized bearings anymore, so unless a standard set puts everything back to right, you have a full on rebuild possibility... with machine work.

Another option would be to find a replacement engine and get back to driving while you decide how much you love the original and how much you really want to spend on it. Dinner time soon, but I think you had a 360. You probably could find a runner up there that's too rusty for saving but has everything you need to fix yours.... mechanically. I don't recall ever hearing of any swap issues with small block Mopar engines...It should all bolt up. It has been so long since I did that stuff... I paid $200 for the complete wrecked car for my last swap (not a Chrysler product).

I don't think I would do anything too crazy, just put her back into summer cruising shape. The dreams tend to kill cars if they get disabled for too long. You will love cruising her, even with a heart transplant.

Maybe a few other voices will chime in here...

Keep an open mind and don't get too bummed out... engines are much easier to deal with than accidents.

 

[TheFearlessFury]

Yeah the knock starts when the engine is warm not cold. But I don't usually hear it on the decel. Not when I'm actually driving it anyway.

I mentioned all of my symptoms to my uncle who used to build engines in the 60s and 70s and he said it sounded just like a rod bearing or a main bearing. He suggested instead of regrinding the crank just buying a new short block. It's more expensive but it's likely to end any knocking once and for all. Would this short block be good? It's cheap and bored out
Blueprint Engines BPC4080, Blueprint Engines Cast Iron Crankshaft Short Block Assemblies | Blueprint Engines

Think that's a good idea?

 

[TheFearlessFury]

Thanks for the input cantflip. I don't think I'll try to band aid this, I want a fix that's once and for all so I can move on to the next thing. I'm either gonna buy a shortblock, or rebuild another engine and drop it in I think. Interestingly this just popped up in my area. It's a 440 out of a camper plus a matching tranny for 200$.
I don't know if it's worth a shot because it's been sitting outside. Thoughts? Is a bb conversion too involved? Or is the shortblock not a bad idea.
Chrysler 440 engine

 

[celticwarlock]

Thanks for the input cantflip. I don't think I'll try to band aid this, I want a fix that's once and for all so I can move on to the next thing. I'm either gonna buy a shortblock, or rebuild another engine and drop it in I think. Interestingly this just popped up in my area. It's a 440 out of a camper plus a matching tranny for 200$.
I don't know if it's worth a shot because it's been sitting outside. Thoughts? Is a bb conversion too involved? Or is the shortblock not a bad idea.
Chrysler 440 engine

A big block conversion is fairly straightforward, but there are a few things to overcome (drive shaft length, etc.). A 440 will also eventually blow apart that 8 1/4" rear you have. If you can get the 440/727 for that little, and if they are salvageable, buy them anyway. If you can repair the motor you have, or get a 360 that is serviceable to stuff in there, do that for now. If originality is not a concern, those 360 motors are EVERYWHERE. Replace/repair what you have, and in the future, when you have a few shiny nickels to rub together, work up the 440 for a later installation.

 

[tallhair]

A big block conversion is fairly straightforward, but there are a few things to overcome (drive shaft length, etc.). A 440 will also eventually blow apart that 8 1/4" rear you have. If you can get the 440/727 for that little, and if they are salvageable, buy them anyway. If you can repair the motor you have, or get a 360 that is serviceable to stuff in there, do that for now. If originality is not a concern, those 360 motors are EVERYWHERE. Replace/repair what you have, and in the future, when you have a few shiny nickels to rub together, work up the 440 for a later installation.

Just find a running small block that you can hear run locally .. a little more to it than that actually. Get it home and start getting it ready to swap in.

In the meantime keep discussing what THAT will involve here so you are ready in advance and keep driving that hammering bastard til it starts getting really bad then take a long weekend and install the well readied replacement.

OR this will be a big long project especially if you go the BB route although they are rea-hehehe-ly fun.

cheers

 

[TheFearlessFury]

I'm not sure which way I should go, I'm gonna call that guy about that 440/727 tomorrow, did you guys see the ad? I'm not sure about it though. It looks like the engine has been sitting outside for a while. I'm leaning more towards the shortblock I posted
Blueprint Engines BPC4080, Blueprint Engines Cast Iron Crankshaft Short Block Assemblies | Blueprint Engines anyone deal with this company before? They say the block is bored over .040 taking it from a 360 to a 400ish CID. That seem decent? The price isn't that bad I guess

 

[celticwarlock]

Wow.....that is some serious coin. I know it's blueprinted and everything, but....damn, that is no small sum. I realize motors that have been gone through and machined are not cheap, but if you go that route, you are marrying yourself to that decision because of the costs involved. For that money, you should have very little trouble finding a viable 360 in good working order, perhaps with some upgrades as well.

 

[cantflip]

I'm not sure which way I should go, I'm gonna call that guy about that 440/727 tomorrow, did you guys see the ad? I'm not sure about it though. It looks like the engine has been sitting outside for a while. I'm leaning more towards the shortblock I posted
Blueprint Engines BPC4080, Blueprint Engines Cast Iron Crankshaft Short Block Assemblies | Blueprint Engines anyone deal with this company before? They say the block is bored over .040 taking it from a 360 to a 400ish CID. That seem decent? The price isn't that bad I guess

I know $2k sounds cheap in a world of 10k project engines, but that is just the foundation. IDK anything about the quality of that company, but would be surprised if there was anything particularly bad about it... but now you need to buy all the other "stuff", cam, lifters, heads reworked or replaced... easy to get to the $10k mark from here.

Big block swap is viable, but I would start with a complete, cheap, rusty car. The RV engine is a good price only if its usable... other wise it's way over scrap value and I would wonder if the transmission is usable in a car. I think medium truck transmissions have different gear ratios... be surprised if it didn't, also might not have the right tail shaft for a car. Check for water and rust if you go there, pull the oil drain plug and walk away if water comes out.

Old carburetor engines are an easy swap, but when making a change I like the option of using anything I need from a complete carcass... the little stuff you find in a swap will often nickel and dime you at least another grand by the time your finished. If you have the space, keep the donor car throughout the swap, sell whats sellable to recoup whatever you can and the project goes smoother and cheaper. I bet you could find a good running rusty small block car for under a grand... probably not much different than a big block car, but no reworking the driveshaft, axle or exhaust.

If you go big block and find one of the Formal parts cars commando1 has been posting lately, I might be a player on some of the leftovers. But, I'm too cheap to count on as a way to pay for the entire project, so don't let that influence your decisions.

Tallhair got it right... Pull the donor first, running donor engines mean you know it will run once reinstalled, clean and paint the donor to your liking. Then on a long weekend pop out the old and work in the new... might get to test drive it Sunday if all goes well. In a fully equipped shop, I would count the swap as a day's work (long day, perhaps) and a few more to debug everything. A home setup and hand tools, a weekend is realistic... don't put yourself under the gun to finish in that time... lots of little things will be waiting to kick your *** doing this on old cars. I would get a squirt can and soak all the fasteners with ATF at least a day before work started... it makes life so much easier.

If you really want to go with a rebuild, consider the used swap first... then you can tear down and decide if the old engine is a viable candidate. If you go with the punched out short block, you will possibly have tuning issues if you do anything other than a stock build up... not a bad thing if you have the budget and really want the power, but a lot to spend if the small block doesn't fit your dream.