Ethylene Glycol or the new "Permanent" anitfreezes for our Original Mopars?

[cantflip]

Green colorant is no longer exclusively used for Ethylene Glycol. This has changed since I retired.

Dave

IDK how anyone will properly keep up with whats what in the fluids offered today... once a car has been serviced outside the dealer and through a couple owners, anything might be in there. The sad part for me is how many trusted products I can no longer trust, or in many cases, even buy anymore.

 

[Gerald Morris]

IDK how anyone will properly keep up with whats what in the fluids offered today... once a car has been serviced outside the dealer and through a couple owners, anything might be in there. The sad part for me is how many trusted products I can no longer trust, or in many cases, even buy anymore.

Sad to say, there are VERY FEW of the Old Reliables left to rely on, in MANY things. I run ethylene glycol and use the taste test for my coolant, which I flush a minimum of once annually. I try to keep it at 60/40 minimum for Mathilda now, and will maybe bump that to 66% glycol after I install the fresh iron housing I copped this week.

 

[cantflip]

Sad to say, there are VERY FEW of the Old Reliables left to rely on, in MANY things. I run ethylene glycol and use the taste test for my coolant, which I flush a minimum of once annually. I try to keep it at 60/40 minimum for Mathilda now, and will maybe bump that to 66% glycol after I install the fresh iron housing I copped this week.

For your climate and change frequency... you're doing the mix backwards. Water is a better heat transfer agent. I'd start at 50/50 and see how that works, you can bleed out a little and add distilled water to get to 60/40 if you want to experiment. 70/30 is the maximum blend, either way... but a hot climate would warrant more water and higher change frequency. I would go stronger blends in the winter though... I was surprised how cold it gets out there in the winter. Dad has had a couple of Bisbee addresses...

 

[Big_John]

I'm still surprised that two guys took my "taste test" comment seriously.

 

[Davea Lux]

I'm still surprised that two guys took my "taste test" comment seriously.

For at least the last 15 years or so, antifreeze containing toxic material such as ethylene glycol have been mixed with Bitrex, a bittering agent to discourage consumption. It only takes about 2 tablespoons of ethylene glycol to kill a 90lb dog.

Dave

 

[Gerald Morris]

For at least the last 15 years or so, antifreeze containing toxic material such as ethylene glycol have been mixed with Bitrex, a bittering agent to discourage consumption. It only takes about 2 tablespoons of ethylene glycol to kill a 90lb dog.

Dave

Yes, it is a VERY NASTY POISON too! Causes total kidney failure, which then cascades to liver failure, though dying w your brain soaked in piss is quite hideous a fate anyway. The stuff has a deceptive sweet taste, which I HAVE put on my tongue to verify, though I don't recommend this to the untutored in poisons.

One should promptly spit poisons out and liberally rinse one's mouth with water after such tests, if they must be made. As a mass murder poison, old school antifreeze packed a big bang for the buck.

 

[Gerald Morris]

For your climate and change frequency... you're doing the mix backwards. Water is a better heat transfer agent. I'd start at 50/50 and see how that works, you can bleed out a little and add distilled water to get to 60/40 if you want to experiment. 70/30 is the maximum blend, either way... but a hot climate would warrant more water and higher change frequency. I would go stronger blends in the winter though... I was surprised how cold it gets out there in the winter. Dad has had a couple of Bisbee addresses...

I concede for cooling you're totally right. Given how I had the temp climb to 220 F on the highway this afternoon, I suppose I WILL add more water for now, down to say a 33% mix for cooling. I'm sure you can recall when methanol was sold at auto stores as an antifreeze additive, Used to get it at Kissinger's in Ft. Worth when a teen. I was first thinking in terms of rust and boiling prevention when I went with the heavy mix. I'll remedy that NOW. Glad to see that even after Tilly ran her fever this afternoon, the coolant level still came to exactly 1.25" below the radiator cap ledge, just as the FSM specs. No oil lost or anything mixing into anything either, Deo gratias! Soon as I score another C-note this week, I'm ordering that damn radiator.........

 

[Davea Lux]

I concede for cooling you're totally right. Given how I had the temp climb to 220 F on the highway this afternoon, I suppose I WILL add more water for now, down to say a 33% mix for cooling. I'm sure you can recall when methanol was sold at auto stores as an antifreeze additive, Used to get it at Kissinger's in Ft. Worth when a teen. I was first thinking in terms of rust and boiling prevention when I went with the heavy mix. I'll remedy that NOW. Glad to see that even after Tilly ran her fever this afternoon, the coolant level still came to exactly 1.25" below the radiator cap ledge, just as the FSM specs. No oil lost or anything mixing into anything either, Deo gratias! Soon as I score another C-note this week, I'm ordering that damn radiator.........

Methanol was discontinued as an antifreeze because if it boiled, it was highly flammable. If it leaked it would burn you car to the ground.
P.S. if you remember methanol antifreeze you are dating your self!

Dave

 

[Davea Lux]

I concede for cooling you're totally right. Given how I had the temp climb to 220 F on the highway this afternoon, I suppose I WILL add more water for now, down to say a 33% mix for cooling. I'm sure you can recall when methanol was sold at auto stores as an antifreeze additive, Used to get it at Kissinger's in Ft. Worth when a teen. I was first thinking in terms of rust and boiling prevention when I went with the heavy mix. I'll remedy that NOW. Glad to see that even after Tilly ran her fever this afternoon, the coolant level still came to exactly 1.25" below the radiator cap ledge, just as the FSM specs. No oil lost or anything mixing into anything either, Deo gratias! Soon as I score another C-note this week, I'm ordering that damn radiator.........

For those of you interested in the history, one of the ways moonshiners used to smuggle alcohol was to fill truck radiators with the stuff. It did not draw suspicion because that was what anti freeze was in the late '20's and early 30's . Old line teamster I knew used to run from Vancouver B.C. to Portland Or three times a week. They would drain out about 7-10 gallons of the stuff in Portland which would keep the speak easy running. He did it for 5 years and never got caught. Probably had lots of lead from the radiator, but none of his customers complained.

Dave

 

[Gerald Morris]

Methanol was discontinued as an antifreeze because if it boiled, it was highly flammable. If it leaked it would burn you car to the ground.
P.S. if you remember methanol antifreeze you are dating your self!

Dave

Sure! I freely admit to being an AARP member too, and all around bona-fide Senile Delinquent. Yes, methanol is NOT a benign substance; nor were the uses I put it to. I say ethylene glycol probably is the best water miscible antifreeze working folk can purchase. I recall my horror the first time I saw PROPYLENE glycol as a soft drink additive, knowing very well what ethyl will do to mammals. I wonder only WHY methanol lasted on the shelves as a viable product as long as it did, given how volatile and toxic the stuff is.... Well, Things Were Different Back in The Ago.....

 

[cantflip]

Yes, it is a VERY NASTY POISON too! Causes total kidney failure, which then cascades to liver failure, though dying w your brain soaked in piss is quite hideous a fate anyway. The stuff has a deceptive sweet taste, which I HAVE put on my tongue to verify, though I don't recommend this to the untutored in poisons.

One should promptly spit poisons out and liberally rinse one's mouth with water after such tests, if they must be made. As a mass murder poison, old school antifreeze packed a big bang for the buck.

I see no point in exposing yourself to the stuff... read the label and you know what you have, ethylene glycol is cheap, I can't fathom there is a substitution problem.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I see no point in exposing yourself to the stuff... read the label and you know what you have, ethylene glycol is cheap, I can't fathom there is a substitution problem.

Oh I DON'T actually taste this stuff from the jug and have only when FLUSHING the stuff OUT by running a garden hose into the water jacket while the pump is turning. As already observed, Bitrex is a VERY bitter agent, so when the water running out of your radiator (or other point of egress for the flush) tastes only like garden hose water, then you can be sure you've flushed the system thoroughly. When young, I used to taste many poisons. Acids are sour, bases bitter, alkaloids run bitter thus, etc. Due care should be exercised.

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

I have done a lot of research on this topic. Regardless of colour, most coolant is still ethylene glycol. The difference is the additives package. There are 3 basic types:

IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology): This is the green stuff that we are used to running in our old Mopars. It's actually getting difficult to find now.

OAT (Organic Acid Technology): Dexcool is an example of this. DO NOT USE in cooling systems which contain copper or brass components. The additives package does not contain corrosion inhibitors which protect copper/brass. DO NOT MIX with IAT or it will form sludge in the cooling system.

HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology): Can mix with IAT or OAT without causing sludging. HOWEVER, it may not provide adequate corrosion protection if mixed. A half-charge of one type of corrosion inhibitor and a half-charge of another type probably will not equal the protection of a full charge of either.

Modern Prestone Universal "mixes with any colour antifreeze" is a HOAT. If you're going to use it, I recommend you flush and fill ONLY with Prestone. However, my recommendation is Zerex GO-5. Available as pre-mixed from Walmart and as a concentrate from real auto parts stores.

GO-5 is a HOAT and is the same stuff that is factory fill in many modern Mopars, even though it's not the same colour. (GO-5 is a pale yellow that is unfortunately hard to see through the side of the reservoir.) It offers corrosion protection for copper/brass. I converted my '94 Cummins to this. When the coolant in my Chryslers is due to be changed, I will probably convert them over to it also.

EDIT: A tech note I found on G-05. Couldn't find anything comparable for Prestone.
http://www.consulab.com/files/zerexg05TechBulletin.pdf

 

[Ripinator]

Oh I DON'T actually taste this stuff from the jug and have only when FLUSHING the stuff OUT by running a garden hose into the water jacket while the pump is turning. As already observed, Bitrex is a VERY bitter agent, so when the water running out of your radiator (or other point of egress for the flush) tastes only like garden hose water, then you can be sure you've flushed the system thoroughly. When young, I used to taste many poisons. Acids are sour, bases bitter, alkaloids run bitter thus, etc. Due care should be exercised.

I have tasted anti-freeze many times, and it has never bothered me. . . In fact, my poetry is a lot better: "Roses are Red, Violets are Blue. I drink Pepsi. Do you Smoke?"

 

[Gerald Morris]

+++Good of you to warn us about the bad modern crap! I use good old generic Sprawlmart brand stuff, which I see uses sodium salts of 2 organic acids, rather like Prestone. Abundant comparisons of StuporTech to Prestone can be Googled, so I figure the stuff is pretty close to it in composition. I plan to get an aluminum radiator this month ASAP, as my 53 yr old brass/copper one is just too clogged up with stop-leak to cool well and has at least 3 leaks, easily visible. God-willing, with that, the nice 2780988 water pump housing I got recently and the Gates pump I've run the past year, I should be well cooled for the summer. I saw that the Gates pump looks VERY similar to the high flow AC cooling pump Ma Par designed in the late 60s. Why deviate from a good design, eh?

I have done a lot of research on this topic. Regardless of colour, most coolant is still ethylene glycol. The difference is the additives package. There are 3 basic types:

IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology): This is the green stuff that we are used to running in our old Mopars. It's actually getting difficult to find now.

OAT (Organic Acid Technology): Dexcool is an example of this. DO NOT USE in cooling systems which contain copper or brass components. The additives package does not contain corrosion inhibitors which protect copper/brass. DO NOT MIX with IAT or it will form sludge in the cooling system.

HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology): Can mix with IAT or OAT without causing sludging. HOWEVER, it may not provide adequate corrosion protection if mixed. A half-charge of one type of corrosion inhibitor and a half-charge of another type probably will not equal the protection of a full charge of either.

Modern Prestone Universal "mixes with any colour antifreeze" is a HOAT. If you're going to use it, I recommend you flush and fill ONLY with Prestone. However, my recommendation is Zerex GO-5. Available as pre-mixed from Walmart and as a concentrate from real auto parts stores.

GO-5 is a HOAT and is the same stuff that is factory fill in many modern Mopars, even though it's not the same colour. (GO-5 is a pale yellow that is unfortunately hard to see through the side of the reservoir.) It offers corrosion protection for copper/brass. I converted my '94 Cummins to this. When the coolant in my Chryslers is due to be changed, I will probably convert them over to it also.

EDIT: A tech note I found on G-05. Couldn't find anything comparable for Prestone.
http://www.consulab.com/files/zerexg05TechBulletin.pdf

 

[73Coupe]

I have done a lot of research on this topic. Regardless of colour, most coolant is still ethylene glycol. The difference is the additives package. There are 3 basic types:

IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology): This is the green stuff that we are used to running in our old Mopars. It's actually getting difficult to find now.

OAT (Organic Acid Technology): Dexcool is an example of this. DO NOT USE in cooling systems which contain copper or brass components. The additives package does not contain corrosion inhibitors which protect copper/brass. DO NOT MIX with IAT or it will form sludge in the cooling system.

HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology): Can mix with IAT or OAT without causing sludging. HOWEVER, it may not provide adequate corrosion protection if mixed. A half-charge of one type of corrosion inhibitor and a half-charge of another type probably will not equal the protection of a full charge of either.

Modern Prestone Universal "mixes with any colour antifreeze" is a HOAT. If you're going to use it, I recommend you flush and fill ONLY with Prestone. However, my recommendation is Zerex GO-5. Available as pre-mixed from Walmart and as a concentrate from real auto parts stores.

GO-5 is a HOAT and is the same stuff that is factory fill in many modern Mopars, even though it's not the same colour. (GO-5 is a pale yellow that is unfortunately hard to see through the side of the reservoir.) It offers corrosion protection for copper/brass. I converted my '94 Cummins to this. When the coolant in my Chryslers is due to be changed, I will probably convert them over to it also.

EDIT: A tech note I found on G-05. Couldn't find anything comparable for Prestone.
http://www.consulab.com/files/zerexg05TechBulletin.pdf

Good info. Do you know under what brand or company the IAT coolant is still available?

I use the Zerex GO-5 gold colored coolant in my wife's '03 Mustang per the specs. Everything else gets Prestone standard green. Why do you recommend the Zerex?

A very good coolant and A/C shop that used to be in my area, recently closed, unfortunately...they have a very educational website, start on home page:
San Carlos Auto Radiator

Some of the products offered by San Carlos Radiator are from this company, VE Labs...I especially like the glass inspection and filter system:
Products

 

[cantflip]

I have done a lot of research on this topic. Regardless of colour, most coolant is still ethylene glycol. The difference is the additives package. There are 3 basic types:

IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology): This is the green stuff that we are used to running in our old Mopars. It's actually getting difficult to find now.

OAT (Organic Acid Technology): Dexcool is an example of this. DO NOT USE in cooling systems which contain copper or brass components. The additives package does not contain corrosion inhibitors which protect copper/brass. DO NOT MIX with IAT or it will form sludge in the cooling system.

HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology): Can mix with IAT or OAT without causing sludging. HOWEVER, it may not provide adequate corrosion protection if mixed. A half-charge of one type of corrosion inhibitor and a half-charge of another type probably will not equal the protection of a full charge of either.

Modern Prestone Universal "mixes with any colour antifreeze" is a HOAT. If you're going to use it, I recommend you flush and fill ONLY with Prestone. However, my recommendation is Zerex GO-5. Available as pre-mixed from Walmart and as a concentrate from real auto parts stores.

GO-5 is a HOAT and is the same stuff that is factory fill in many modern Mopars, even though it's not the same colour. (GO-5 is a pale yellow that is unfortunately hard to see through the side of the reservoir.) It offers corrosion protection for copper/brass. I converted my '94 Cummins to this. When the coolant in my Chryslers is due to be changed, I will probably convert them over to it also.

EDIT: A tech note I found on G-05. Couldn't find anything comparable for Prestone.
http://www.consulab.com/files/zerexg05TechBulletin.pdf

Thank you... I believe that's the stuff I've been looking for. Just shy of clear MB coolant was very good stuff and they discontinued it. I think I'll give this a try.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I have tasted anti-freeze many times, and it has never bothered me. . . In fact, my poetry is a lot better: "Roses are Red, Violets are Blue. I drink Pepsi. Do you Smoke?"

Quite!

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

Good info. Do you know under what brand or company the IAT coolant is still available?

I haven't shopped for it in awhile, but I did buy it under STP brand and a store brand called "Autolab".

I use the Zerex GO-5 gold colored coolant in my wife's '03 Mustang per the specs. Everything else gets Prestone standard green. Why do you recommend the Zerex?

When I was researching, a lot of people had good things to say about the GO-5 and it has good technical info online like the PDF that I linked to. I haven't seen similar specs published for the Prestone Universal. Prestone contains no silicates though, which are commonly used to lubricate the water pump bearings. Of course antifreeze formulated for Japanese cars doesn't contain silicates either and they don't suffer from premature water pump failure, so Prestone is probably fine also, if you use it exclusively and don't mix with other kinds.

The other thing for me is convenience. I can run the same GO-5 coolant and Rotella 15W40 oil in my Cummins pickup and my big old Chryslers. Then the only oddball is my wife's CR-V.

 

[Big_John]

I remember this Zerex commercial from the early 70's and all the problems their anti-leak antifreeze caused, especially in older cars. Zerex got a really bad reputation from it. Of course, that was then...




Good info on the subject in this thread.