General A727 Potential R&R questions/suggestions.

[3175375]

Ok, so I took a look at A & A transmission website, there seems to be a rebuild kit with kolene steels, would you consider getting individual transmission parts or an overhaul kit?

Or just not even look at the catalogue until the trans is disassembled?

I assume engine rebuilding is manner similar?
Don't even think about the catalogue until the rotating assembly is inspected?

I would recommend that you call A&A.
Yes, rebuilding a transmission is a lot like rebuilding an engine. However, you want to leverage from their tribal knowledge, which can’t be captured (ok, rarely) on a website.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

I would recommend that you call A&A.
Yes, rebuilding a transmission is a lot like rebuilding an engine. However, you want to leverage from their tribal knowledge, which can’t be captured (ok, rarely) on a website.

Yes sir I'll give them a call.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Hard to get a "kit" out of A&A. Their kits are race transmission refresh kits. Do not use Kolene steels in a stock rebuild.
Those steels are treated in a salt bath (not table salt) it alters the properties of the steel to grab harder higher temperature absorption also. Way over the top for 361cid and I believe they require a certain friction disc.
Stock clutches in a 727 are not a weak point, unless your pump and seals are bad.

 

[413]

Don’t get fancy with the trans parts. Post #9 says this also. You don’t need special fancy razzzoop parts. A stock rebuild kit from a local supply house will be more than adequate.

You don’t have a race car. You have a heavy car with 2.76 gears and a 361 Engine. So this idea of performance isn‘t going to pan out very well.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

So far thank you Sir's, few weeks back I saw a YT video of a guy using kolene steels and in this "kit" included thin clutch discs, I think it was red in color, I assume these red clutch discs are the REQUIRED clutch discs to use. As @70bigblockdodge meant.

I believe he said it's going in a "stock" but stronger rebuild going behind a Dodge power wagon, I think the YT channel name was YoshiMoshi garage.

Here I'll post the pictures I snapped few weeks back.

But I'll see what they say about my trans.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

Called A&A, they didn't pick up the phone, but I'll try again tomorrow or so.

I'm thinking of not exactly "racing" clutches but probably something like adding more clutches to the stock drum, (5 clutch max?)

But basically improving the durability of the transmission.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The thin clutches are for adding more friction disc to the front drum(direct). It has to grab at speed/wot thus the need for more friction. The thin disc theoretically will not tolerate prolonged heat as well as thicker disc. Later model like 400-2bbl only had 3 clutch disc in front drum and they worked fine for a while. Everything else ran 4 disc except Hemi and 440 cars and some motor home transmissions have the big drum for five disc in there.
I personally would not worry about adding a extra friction disc, unless your making a lot of WOT pulls.
Get the stainless flex band and don't put the 5.0 lever with it.
The regular red waffle clutches are good.
I usually don't even change the low reverse band unless the trans is toast or been badly abused. With a manual reverse valve body it literally only works in reverse.
There is really not much to go wrong in a 727 other than just wear and age (hardening of the seals)
I had the back bearing go bad in my Diesel PU with 280k miles and the trans still work perfectly just bad noises.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

The thin clutches are for adding more friction disc to the front drum(direct). It has to grab at speed/wot thus the need for more friction. The thin disc theoretically will not tolerate prolonged heat as well as thicker disc. Later model like 400-2bbl only had 3 clutch disc in front drum and they worked fine for a while. Everything else ran 4 disc except Hemi and 440 cars and some motor home transmissions have the big drum for five disc in there.
I personally would not worry about adding a extra friction disc, unless your making a lot of WOT pulls.
Get the stainless flex band and don't put the 5.0 lever with it.
The regular red waffle clutches are good.
I usually don't even change the low reverse band unless the trans is toast or been badly abused. With a manual reverse valve body it literally only works in reverse.
There is really not much to go wrong in a 727 other than just wear and age (hardening of the seals)
I had the back bearing go bad in my Diesel PU with 280k miles and the trans still work perfectly just bad noises.

Appreciate the info, in fact I do beat on the tranny a bit. (That kickdown is iresistable) I called A&A again but didn't answer, I'm going to try CRT transmissions and give them a call.

CRT has "kits" for a stock rebuild, I might just go with those.

But I'll keep that on tabs as I need other parts/tools tranny jack and whatnot.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

The thin clutches are for adding more friction disc to the front drum(direct). It has to grab at speed/wot thus the need for more friction. The thin disc theoretically will not tolerate prolonged heat as well as thicker disc. Later model like 400-2bbl only had 3 clutch disc in front drum and they worked fine for a while. Everything else ran 4 disc except Hemi and 440 cars and some motor home transmissions have the big drum for five disc in there.
I personally would not worry about adding a extra friction disc, unless your making a lot of WOT pulls.
Get the stainless flex band and don't put the 5.0 lever with it.
The regular red waffle clutches are good.
I usually don't even change the low reverse band unless the trans is toast or been badly abused. With a manual reverse valve body it literally only works in reverse.
There is really not much to go wrong in a 727 other than just wear and age (hardening of the seals)
I had the back bearing go bad in my Diesel PU with 280k miles and the trans still work perfectly just bad noises.

Were these the "waffle" clutches you were referring to?

 

[MONC440]

Called A&A, they didn't pick up the phone, but I'll try again tomorrow or so.

I'm thinking of not exactly "racing" clutches but probably something like adding more clutches to the stock drum, (5 clutch max?)

But basically improving the durability of the transmission.

If you have never done a 727 or 904 trans I would recommend watching YouTube videos specifically cope racing transmission’s video. I know it says “racing” in the title but John Cope from CRT is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on Mopar transmissions in the US. John sells parts for transmissions but he will answer the phone when you call and usually will email you back within a day.

If you don’t want to change your rear end gear you could swap in a low first gear assembly. They are not cheap but it will get you moving quicker in first and will not effect your top end at all.

PS you will need a spring compressor to be able to disassemble the clutch to change seals.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

If you have never done a 727 or 904 trans I would recommend watching YouTube videos specifically cope racing transmission’s video. I know it says “racing” in the title but John Cope from CRT is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on Mopar transmissions in the US. John sells parts for transmissions but he will answer the phone when you call and usually will email you back within a day.

If you don’t want to change your rear end gear you could swap in a low first gear assembly. They are not cheap but it will get you moving quicker in first and will not effect your top end at all.

PS you will need a spring compressor to be able to disassemble the clutch to change seals.

Thanks Sir, I was watching CRT's videos just last night, and figured the difficult part that is going to be is the front pump if it is worn, and it's a 19 spline.
Also, what @70bigblockdodge mentioned.

The spring compressor tool will come in time, soon as I gather the other tools like the circlip pliers.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Were these the "waffle" clutches you were referring to?

View attachment 623431

They are pretty much all waffle, factory design. There are smooth clutches that work with the Kolene steels, ideally more friction surface on the steel because you eliminate the waffle grooves, you need more pressure to engage them with no grooves. Do not use smooth clutches, you would have to look for them.
I can't remember exactly what Kolene salt bath does to the steel, you can probably Google it. I know Kolene flake is hazardous material to haul, and pretty nasty stuff according to the guys at the mill.
In a word yes those are waffle clutches.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

They are pretty much all waffle, factory design. There are smooth clutches that work with the Kolene steels, ideally more friction surface on the steel because you eliminate the waffle grooves, you need more pressure to engage them with no grooves. Do not use smooth clutches, you would have to look for them.
I can't remember exactly what Kolene salt bath does to the steel, you can probably Google it. I know Kolene flake is hazardous material to haul, and pretty nasty stuff according to the guys at the mill.
In a word yes those are waffle clutches.

This is valuable information, thanks. @70bigblockdodge.

I'll take a look at the kolene steels, I presume it has strong anti-wear & heat protection.

Then compare with the ordinary steels.

For now I'm gathering the tools for this job, just ordered a inch-pounds beam style torque wrench.
Circlip pliers source has been acquired so that leaves me with a snap ring pliers and a transmission jack.

Anywho, appreciate the information that is graciously provided, I'll need all the information/help I can get.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

So I read on Kolene and it's a process putting ferrous metals in a molten salt mix, and it improves heat resistance and greatly improves anti-wear properties, interesting.

But I presume putting stronger parts will just make the weak portions of the transmission gets weaker in a sense or stand out.
(Drum/Sprag)

 

[Big_John]

I can't remember exactly what Kolene salt bath does to the steel

It's a nitriding process that is done in hot cyanide salts. This hardens the surface to about .005" deep. By doing this in the hot salt (~1000*F IIRC) the parts don't warp or grow like they might with other heat treat processes.

It's done on a lot of automotive stuff for wear. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the clutch "steels" are all processed that way and not just the ones the specialty vendors sell, but that's just speculation on my part.

My Dad worked for Lipe Rollway and they built truck clutches. He wired and did the salt bathes for them when they switched to that process back in the 60's.

 

[fury fan]

I read thru all of this and have some brief comments, other folks added the details.

You don't need a HP rebuild - don't go nuts with HP hardware thinking you'll get a better trans. Your engine can't provide the 'push' for that.
The biggest improvement you can get is reducing the 2-3 shift's overlap (the biggest offense in a 727) via a shift kit, Transgo has a great reputation.
DON'T go nuts on that, either, use the HD/towing settings.

When I last spoke to A&A (spring 2023) he was suffering from a labor shortage, and might still be. He makes a lot of hardware in-house and does rebuilds/R&R also.
He is an honest and righteous guy, but the phone might not be his #1 priority?
Cope (CRT) got out of rebuilds/R&R a few years ago to focus on making parts. He is therefore more likely to answer the phone?

As for a cam:
I've read that Comp has a lot of failures - but consider they are a high-volume seller, so statistically speaking - they'll have more failures.
Do they also have metallurgy issues? I dunno.
Some folks say they use Chinese lifters and/or cam blanks. Other people say all cores are US sourced. I dunno.
Regardless - Hughes Engines has a good tech article on their website of what to watch for to help ensure a lobe doesn't wipe during break-in.

For cam size:
The Lunati Voodoo series has faster rate of lift, and therefore more area under the curve than an OEM cam. Which gives more cylinder filling for the same lift/advertised duration.
So if you chose a cam with similar advertised duration to the factory cam - you'll get more torque/HP with a Voodoo, and similar idle to stock.
You could go 1 size larger than stock, but a 383 is easy to overcam, so a 361 will be worse. I would not go larger than a 260-ish size in a 361 in a heavy car.
They have a 262/268 version of the factory 383/440HP cam, it reportedly works well in a 383, but I suspect those testimonies are on modified engines.
I would not risk that one in a 361. Go for an increase, but don't reach too far on bigger size.

If you drive mostly in the city, 3.23 might even give you an MPG increase, as it will lighten the load on teh 361, getting the car moving with less throttle.

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

I read thru all of this and have some brief comments, other folks added the details.

You don't need a HP rebuild - don't go nuts with HP hardware thinking you'll get a better trans. Your engine can't provide the 'push' for that.
The biggest improvement you can get is reducing the 2-3 shift's overlap (the biggest offense in a 727) via a shift kit, Transgo has a great reputation.
DON'T go nuts on that, either, use the HD/towing settings.

When I last spoke to A&A (spring 2023) he was suffering from a labor shortage, and might still be. He makes a lot of hardware in-house and does rebuilds/R&R also.
He is an honest and righteous guy, but the phone might not be his #1 priority?
Cope (CRT) got out of rebuilds/R&R a few years ago to focus on making parts. He is therefore more likely to answer the phone?

As for a cam:
I've read that Comp has a lot of failures - but consider they are a high-volume seller, so statistically speaking - they'll have more failures.
Do they also have metallurgy issues? I dunno.
Some folks say they use Chinese lifters and/or cam blanks. Other people say all cores are US sourced. I dunno.
Regardless - Hughes Engines has a good tech article on their website of what to watch for to help ensure a lobe doesn't wipe during break-in.

For cam size:
The Lunati Voodoo series has faster rate of lift, and therefore more area under the curve than an OEM cam. Which gives more cylinder filling for the same lift/advertised duration.
So if you chose a cam with similar advertised duration to the factory cam - you'll get more torque/HP with a Voodoo, and similar idle to stock.
You could go 1 size larger than stock, but a 383 is easy to overcam, so a 361 will be worse. I would not go larger than a 260-ish size in a 361 in a heavy car.
They have a 262/268 version of the factory 383/440HP cam, it reportedly works well in a 383, but I suspect those testimonies are on modified engines.
I would not risk that one in a 361. Go for an increase, but don't reach too far on bigger size.

If you drive mostly in the city, 3.23 might even give you an MPG increase, as it will lighten the load on teh 361, getting the car moving with less throttle.

Regarding CRT, I watched a few videos from John at CRT, he knows his stuff & is experienced, especially the exploding Drum/Sprag, scary stuff!

With the 2.76 gears I achieved somewhere around 21MPG on a good day, but averages toward 16 or so.

The 3.23 gears has been on my mind for a while, but then again this car is more of a cruiser, not a stop light to stop light racer. But wouldn't be a bad idea to get 3.23 and feel the acceleration put you into your seat.

Regarding cams, (That's coming soon) I've been eyeing a 260/260 cam, not an over the top choice, slightly less tamer than the 256/256 in the motor right now, but the idle quality should feel near identical, since no cam lope.

Appreciate compiling the information from the previous posts, no thanks to my ADHD I tend to forget some valuable information that's been posted.

Here's a thought, maybe the Drum/Sprag hasn't failed yet is because I have the torque robbing 2.76 gears.

Potentially billet Drum/ bolt in Sprag?

 

[Sir Dodge alot]

It's a nitriding process that is done in hot cyanide salts. This hardens the surface to about .005" deep. By doing this in the hot salt (~1000*F IIRC) the parts don't warp or grow like they might with other heat treat processes.

It's done on a lot of automotive stuff for wear. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the clutch "steels" are all processed that way and not just the ones the specialty vendors sell, but that's just speculation on my part.

My Dad worked for Lipe Rollway and they built truck clutches. He wired and did the salt bathes for them when they switched to that process back in the 60's.

Read something similar to this, and I can say it's a bit like tempering the metal.

 

[fury fan]

Regarding CRT, I watched a few videos from John at CRT, he knows his stuff & is experienced, especially the exploding Drum/Sprag, scary stuff!
...
Here's a thought, maybe the Drum/Sprag hasn't failed yet is because I have the torque robbing 2.76 gears.

Potentially billet Drum/ bolt in Sprag?

Yes, CRT is knowledegable, but anyone with racing experience knows about the vulnerability of the sprag.
The sprag isn't concerned about what rearend gears you have, and you have no need for a high-zoot sprag.
Sprag failures can be due to driveline failures or improper methods of doing a burnout. I doubt either one is a concern for you.

You can read this, but don't get caught up in it. All you need (and you don't really *need* it), is a shift kit that speeds up the shifts a little and reduces the overlap on the 2-3 shift.
Exploding Torqueflites

 

[Big_John]

Read something similar to this, and I can say it's a bit like tempering the metal.

Not at all.

The word is often used incorrectly to describe the entire heat treat process, but the nitrading process doesn't involve tempering.

Tempering is done to take some excess hardness out of steel usually after heat treating. While there are many different nuances to heat treating different alloy steels (or even cast iron), here's an example ...

Let's say your are making a chisel. You grab a piece of O1 tool steel off the shelf and you machine it so it looks like a chisel. Now you grab the torch and heat it so it's cherry red and then you dunk it in oil. You've now got a really hard chisel. Problem is it's so hard that if you hit it with a hammer, it would shatter. Kind of like glass. So part of the process is to temper the steel. So you grab the torch again, heat it until it's a nice straw color and let it cool. Now the steel isn't as brittle, but it's still hard enough that it will cut and hold a sharp edge.

That's the quick and dirty method that I've done a lot of times in my former life as a tool & diemaker when sending it out for heat treat wasn't possible due to time or money constraints. I'd end up with Rockwell 59-60C hardness almost every time. Done correctly, this hardness goes all the way through the chisel and when you sharpen it, the edge will still be hard.

That is a very simple explanation and it all varies with different steels. Heat treating is kind of an art mixed with science that has a entire industry devoted to it and I'm really just scratching the surface (pun intended LOL) of heat treating and using an example of an easily heat treatable steel. You can research it more online if you want.

Nitrading hardens the surface of the steel, leaving a soft center. Think of a tootsie roll pop. Hard candy on the outside and a soft center. By doing this, you have a surface that resists wear, but the soft center gives it some resistance to fracture etc. It also lets you use low carbon steels or other alloy steels that will perform better in some uses and are often less expensive.

Ever watch "Forged in Fire" on TV? They show the hardening process because it's good TV, but they don't show the tempering as they do it off camera overnight.